472 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

EntropicAngel wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Well, the thing to keep in mind there is that ME3 sold a good bit more than both ME2 and ME if I remember right.  It also put more of an emphasis on the shooter audience Bioware's been after a while that I would simply be guessing is skewed towards a larger male audience.

Considering that ME3's story was twice as highbrow as ME2, or ME1 for that matter--I didn't say better executed, I said more highbrow--this painting of ME3 as "dumbed down" is at best untrue and at worst...expletive.

You mean the starchild, or people commiting suicide right and left? Or the ridiculous ending options? ME1 still has the best story, hands down.

Modifié par slimgrin, 08 février 2014 - 05:15 .

[HiroVoid]

EntropicAngel wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Well, the thing to keep in mind there is that ME3 sold a good bit more than both ME2 and ME if I remember right.  It also put more of an emphasis on the shooter audience Bioware's been after a while that I would simply be guessing is skewed towards a larger male audience.

Considering that ME3's story was twice as highbrow as ME2, or ME1 for that matter--I didn't say better executed, I said more highbrow--this painting of ME3 as "dumbed down" is at best untrue and at worst...expletive.

.....I never claimed ME3 to be "dumbed down".  I simply said it had more emphasis on the shooting sections as well as overall better shooting gameplay as well.  They also included multiplayer which would help capture the audiences that're more attracted to your usual shooters.

[In Exile]

EntropicAngel wrote...
The market defines the advertising. Too many people don't understand that.

That's not right. The advertisers guess at what the market is, just like the designers of a particular game guess at what the market will be and what features the market desires. It's not a fool-proof process. 

A great example is the actual marketing for DA:O: look at the "Violence" trailer, for example. Do you think that's reflective of what the "market" would want in an RPG? Contrast it with Skyrim. 

Too many people seem to have this big brother view that "Big Oil" or "the Big Three" or whatever your "Big Corporation" of choice control the entertainment market. They really don't.

Regardless of where you're going with your actual view, I think it's worth reading up on the actual power that a near monopsony/monopoly (or an equivalent consortium) wields in the economy. 

[HiroVoid]

EntropicAngel wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Well, the thing to keep in mind there is that ME3 sold a good bit more than both ME2 and ME if I remember right.  It also put more of an emphasis on the shooter audience Bioware's been after a while that I would simply be guessing is skewed towards a larger male audience.

Considering that ME3's story was twice as highbrow as ME2, or ME1 for that matter--I didn't say better executed, I said more highbrow--this painting of ME3 as "dumbed down" is at best untrue and at worst...expletive.

You mean the starchild, or people commiting suicide right and left? Or the ridulous ending options? ME1 still has the best story, hands down.

I'm not arguing which had the "best" story. I'm saying that ME3's was far more "highbrow" for a game that the uninitiated claim is "a CoD clone" than the other games in the series. As such, it actually wasn't designed to "pander" to those groups.

Like it or not, "Synthetics will turn on their organic creators" is a more intellectual topic than "We are big and ineffable, we eat you!" That doesn't fit with the supposed "dumbing down."

I just wanted to make a side point, didn't want to drag this out.

And what does having a more intellectual game have to do with not trying to put more effort into interesting more shooter fans?  Having a good story and focusing on more shooter elements aren't exclusive.

[HiroVoid]

EntropicAngel wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

And what does having a more intellectual game have to do with not trying to put more effort into interesting more shooter fans?  Having a good story and focusing on more shooter elements aren't exclusive.

I'm sorry. Too often I see claims that ME3 was dumbed down for the shooter fans (I've heard some call it a GOW clone) so that sometimes when I see comments about them improving the shooter aspect I take the next step and conclude the person is saying the story was dumbed down as well. It's clear you're not saying that. My apologies.

Don't worry about it.  My guesses aren't really reliable anyway on that matter since I haven't really played through ME3 anyway.  I just mostly guessed off of hearing people say the combat was better and gameplay videos of the multiplayer looking similar to horde modes in games like Gears of War.  Of course, since Mass Effect is part third-person shooter, having better shooter mechanics should help.

Back on-topic:  Uh...increased awareness to a larger female audience that's interested in the genre of RPGs that a female is playable would be good.  Females who play JRPGs with one reason being they enjoy the good looking guys can be made aware you can romance a hot guy in the Dragon Age series to try and increase sales.

[Emileejay]

Long story short, there are people being paid to plan the marketing that probably know more about what they're doing that anyone here does.

For the record, I am on the who-gives-a-damn side in this debate. If Bioware thinks marketing more towards men is the way to go at the start, then they probably know what they're doing. Those whining that they haven't shown women enough are whining FAR too early in the year for this. No one has any clue what Bioware is planning to expose next. At the very least, leave your complaining about lack of inclusion until AFTER the campaigning for the game is done and we can see the culmination of the marketing team's plans - which will no doubt include the female populace anyways, because there is a great deal of feminist support from within Bioware (there were in fact multiple panels at the Bioware Base at PAX Prime about women in their games).

So. Let's all disperse and carry on with the anticipation for what is looking like a great game so far.

[In Exile]

EntropicAngel wrote...
That's what I said further down. It's still the market deciding. Over time.

Not really. The marketing reacts to a big "Oh, darn!" moment after one particular developer takes a risk on a new type of approach to gaming. Posters here are saying, essentially, that Bioware should be that developer that takes a risk on a new type of approach to marketing. 

You'll notice I used the word "entertainment" there and gave examples from entertainment, not actual things like oil. That was intentional. 

Oh, that was my bad. Apologies. I missed that. 

[kuro_sasori]

In Exile wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
That's what I said further down. It's still the market deciding. Over time.

Not really. The marketing reacts to a big "Oh, darn!" moment after one particular developer takes a risk on a new type of approach to gaming. Posters here are saying, essentially, that Bioware should be that developer that takes a risk on a new type of approach to marketing. 

You'll notice I used the word "entertainment" there and gave examples from entertainment, not actual things like oil. That was intentional. 

Oh, that was my bad. Apologies. I missed that. 

Would taking that risk be too bad? I mean there is always people as well as companies that just react to what others do rather than acting in advance. Taking risk is also part of doing businesses after all and who knows it might just work out and they will be the first ones to rip the benefits. Just a thought 

[Red Panda]

kuroi_sasori wrote...

In Exile wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
That's what I said further down. It's still the market deciding. Over time.

Not really. The marketing reacts to a big "Oh, darn!" moment after one particular developer takes a risk on a new type of approach to gaming. Posters here are saying, essentially, that Bioware should be that developer that takes a risk on a new type of approach to marketing. 

You'll notice I used the word "entertainment" there and gave examples from entertainment, not actual things like oil. That was intentional. 

Oh, that was my bad. Apologies. I missed that. 

Would taking that risk be too bad? I mean there is always people as well as companies that just react to what others do rather than acting in advance. Taking risk is also part of doing businesses after all and who knows it might just work out and they will be the first ones to rip the benefits. Just a thought 

Women actually make up a sizable percentage of the console audience. It's not too hard to put two and two together and realize if you can appeal even to a part of that group, you can increase profits. The key is targeting that group and letting them know what the game has to offerinstead of it just looking like a male-dominated power fantasy game.

[HiroVoid]

OperatingWookie wrote...

kuroi_sasori wrote...

In Exile wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
That's what I said further down. It's still the market deciding. Over time.

Not really. The marketing reacts to a big "Oh, darn!" moment after one particular developer takes a risk on a new type of approach to gaming. Posters here are saying, essentially, that Bioware should be that developer that takes a risk on a new type of approach to marketing. 

You'll notice I used the word "entertainment" there and gave examples from entertainment, not actual things like oil. That was intentional. 

Oh, that was my bad. Apologies. I missed that. 

Would taking that risk be too bad? I mean there is always people as well as companies that just react to what others do rather than acting in advance. Taking risk is also part of doing businesses after all and who knows it might just work out and they will be the first ones to rip the benefits. Just a thought 

Women actually make up a sizable percentage of the console audience. It's not too hard to put two and two together and realize if you can appeal even to a part of that group, you can increase profits. The key is targeting that group and letting them know what the game has to offerinstead of it just looking like a male-dominated power fantasy game.

Whoa!  Are you implying females dont' want a power fantasy game?

[kuro_sasori]

HiroVoid wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

kuroi_sasori wrote...

In Exile wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
That's what I said further down. It's still the market deciding. Over time.

Not really. The marketing reacts to a big "Oh, darn!" moment after one particular developer takes a risk on a new type of approach to gaming. Posters here are saying, essentially, that Bioware should be that developer that takes a risk on a new type of approach to marketing. 

You'll notice I used the word "entertainment" there and gave examples from entertainment, not actual things like oil. That was intentional. 

Oh, that was my bad. Apologies. I missed that. 

Would taking that risk be too bad? I mean there is always people as well as companies that just react to what others do rather than acting in advance. Taking risk is also part of doing businesses after all and who knows it might just work out and they will be the first ones to rip the benefits. Just a thought 

Women actually make up a sizable percentage of the console audience. It's not too hard to put two and two together and realize if you can appeal even to a part of that group, you can increase profits. The key is targeting that group and letting them know what the game has to offerinstead of it just looking like a male-dominated power fantasy game.

Whoa!  Are you implying females dont' want a power fantasy game?

I am certainly not . I think the devs could really appeal to many gamers by just taking that risk of advertising either their character creator in a trailer, showing the different possibilities available for all of us would be a good way of doing it which I think would be better than just including a female a la Mass Effect in their advertising campaign.

[slimgrin]

kuroi_sasori wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

kuroi_sasori wrote...

In Exile wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
That's what I said further down. It's still the market deciding. Over time.

Not really. The marketing reacts to a big "Oh, darn!" moment after one particular developer takes a risk on a new type of approach to gaming. Posters here are saying, essentially, that Bioware should be that developer that takes a risk on a new type of approach to marketing. 

You'll notice I used the word "entertainment" there and gave examples from entertainment, not actual things like oil. That was intentional. 

Oh, that was my bad. Apologies. I missed that. 

Would taking that risk be too bad? I mean there is always people as well as companies that just react to what others do rather than acting in advance. Taking risk is also part of doing businesses after all and who knows it might just work out and they will be the first ones to rip the benefits. Just a thought 

Women actually make up a sizable percentage of the console audience. It's not too hard to put two and two together and realize if you can appeal even to a part of that group, you can increase profits. The key is targeting that group and letting them know what the game has to offerinstead of it just looking like a male-dominated power fantasy game.

Whoa!  Are you implying females dont' want a power fantasy game?

I am certainly not . I think the devs could really appeal to many gamers by just taking that risk of advertising either their character creator in a trailer, showing the different possibilities available for all of us would be a good way of doing it which I think would be better than just including a female a la Mass Effect in their advertising campaign.

And once Bioware has decided to include a woman in their marketing, what type of woman will be univerailly accepted? Because this is really going to matter to Bioware fans.

[kuro_sasori]

slimgrin wrote...

kuroi_sasori wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

kuroi_sasori wrote...

In Exile wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
That's what I said further down. It's still the market deciding. Over time.

Not really. The marketing reacts to a big "Oh, darn!" moment after one particular developer takes a risk on a new type of approach to gaming. Posters here are saying, essentially, that Bioware should be that developer that takes a risk on a new type of approach to marketing. 

You'll notice I used the word "entertainment" there and gave examples from entertainment, not actual things like oil. That was intentional. 

Oh, that was my bad. Apologies. I missed that. 

Would taking that risk be too bad? I mean there is always people as well as companies that just react to what others do rather than acting in advance. Taking risk is also part of doing businesses after all and who knows it might just work out and they will be the first ones to rip the benefits. Just a thought 

Women actually make up a sizable percentage of the console audience. It's not too hard to put two and two together and realize if you can appeal even to a part of that group, you can increase profits. The key is targeting that group and letting them know what the game has to offerinstead of it just looking like a male-dominated power fantasy game.

Whoa!  Are you implying females dont' want a power fantasy game?

I am certainly not . I think the devs could really appeal to many gamers by just taking that risk of advertising either their character creator in a trailer, showing the different possibilities available for all of us would be a good way of doing it which I think would be better than just including a female a la Mass Effect in their advertising campaign.

And once Bioware has decided to include a woman in their marketing, what type of woman will be univerailly accepted? Because this is really going to matter to Bioware fans.

I see what you mean and although it would not matter to me; it would probably be important for others. I am just suggesting to use the character creator to appeal to other players, not just female players. I know they cannot please everyone, so just show them what your product contains and how it is gradually including more options for all of us. I am not advocating for a female character on the cover of the box like Mass Effect 3 did, that would definitely cause controversy regardless of the color of skin, even if they include both genders.

[In Exile]

kuroi_sasori wrote...
Would taking that risk be too bad? I mean there is always people as well as companies that just react to what others do rather than acting in advance. Taking risk is also part of doing businesses after all and who knows it might just work out and they will be the first ones to rip the benefits. Just a thought 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm saying Bioware should take a risk. I'm very vocal about companies taking a principled stand in terms of certain undesirable features of marketing and, more generally, so-called gaming culture. 

[In Exile]

EntropicAngel wrote...
Can you give an example? As I alluded to with my edit, I suspect the big focus on open-world games was a direct result of Skyrim's success as just that. But that wasn't a "new approach to gaming," that's just what TES has been diong for the last ten years, with a different coat on.

Skyrim took a lot of risks with the TES formula. They simplified a lot of so-called "hardcore" features, which continued a trend from Oblivion and FO3. 

Another example is how the FPS genre changed from 1990-2000, and then again from 2000-2006.

Additionally I'd argue that the purpose of a game (to "fulfill a dream," fill some niche, tell a story, etc.) is not the same as the purpose of marketing (to promote awareness, not necessarily understanding). 

The purpose of marketing is a controversial topic. Not everyone agrees that it is about putting information out there vs. actively making sales. 

Modifié par In Exile, 08 février 2014 - 08:08 .

[OrayMoor]

EntropicAngel wrote...

OrayMoor wrote...

Would it actually bother anybody if Bioware did one original trailer with a female protagonist? I mean one trailer shouldent really bother the male fun base and it will really please the female fun base. And one of the reasons I like the witcher less then Biowares games was that I couldent play a female, I would have much ratherd playing the Triss Merigold...

I doubt it would bother anyone except die-hard chauvinists.

The problem is why. You say, "it will really please the female fanbase." That isn't the purpose of a trailer. The purpose of a trailer is to garner the most attention it can while being true to the game. Does the trailer do that? if so, sure.

It will really please the female fun base because we are almost never the ones targeted by maketing, which is basicly making woman feel like second class gamers, that are never good enough for the maketing to be botherd to target for them.
I didn't mean that the trailer should focuse on you being able to play a female. It should be focused on what the game is about, no doubt about that. But in the moments it will usually show a male protagonist just show a female protagonist. I don't think people would care about how she looks like, or whats her skin color.
And it might actually/hopefully help me convice my friends that this game is for them too.
It be actually really cool if they make one trailer for targeting womans, and show the things that might appeal to woman in thier game, like charcter dev, stroy and such.

[kuro_sasori]

In Exile wrote...

kuroi_sasori wrote...
Would taking that risk be too bad? I mean there is always people as well as companies that just react to what others do rather than acting in advance. Taking risk is also part of doing businesses after all and who knows it might just work out and they will be the first ones to rip the benefits. Just a thought 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm saying Bioware should take a risk. I'm very vocal about companies taking a principled stand in terms of certain undesirable features of marketing and, more generally, so-called gaming culture. 

Oh! OK, I am sorry. Evidently, I did not understand what you were trying to say in the first place, my apologies English is not my first language. So, we agree on that, I also think that eventually things need to change; it is some sort of evolution that should occur within the industry. I consider changes to be usually for the betterment of things, but I am an optimist after all

[mopotter]

iwillskinyou wrote...

@mopotter
Remember how all of the adds with the original PS1/Gameboy only featured boys playing them?

I think this gender division is stronger in the 20+ age group, aka those who grew up/lived during the 80/90s. You have a generation of resentful adult female gamers, and a generation of entitled adult male gamers..that continue to be at each others throats on principal..

They should avoid avoid overshadowing one gender over the other, so everyone can hold poke balls, battle there toads, eat mushrooms, hadu their ken, and sing koom ba yah.

   I do remember.  And girls playing Barbie.  Nightmares to this day,.  My step-daughter talked me into this when she was 8 and I had to help her play it for awhile. Then Shining Force came out which I picked up for me and she saw how much better it was.  She is a gamer, though now it's when her 2 year old daughter is busy with her gamer dad.  She already plays simple games and she's a big part of my dissatisfication with the way games like Biowares are marketed.  

[mopotter]

EntropicAngel wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Not really. The marketing reacts to a big "Oh, darn!" moment after one particular developer takes a risk on a new type of approach to gaming. Posters here are saying, essentially, that Bioware should be that developer that takes a risk on a new type of approach to marketing. 

Can you give an example? As I alluded to with my edit, I suspect the big focus on open-world games was a direct result of Skyrim's success as just that. But that wasn't a "new approach to gaming," that's just what TES has been diong for the last ten years, with a different coat on.

Additionally I'd argue that the purpose of a game (to "fulfill a dream," fill some niche, tell a story, etc.) is not the same as the purpose of marketing (to promote awareness, not necessarily understanding).

i've always felt Skyrim took a small step towards BioWare type games, with their marriage and kids approach and a few more interessting NPC's, and now BioWare is taking a small step toward Skyrim's open worlds.  If they keep working on both, it should be an interesting future.

If your talking general advertising to differnt markets, Tabacco did this extremely well back in the day.  Started with men, added women and then added kids.  My dad smoked, then my mom started and I never had to because I just breathed in theirs.  

However game marketing often seems to stagnate often marketing to the same stereotypes like the men still living in their parents basement, when many games are happily married and play mmo's with their wives.  Marketing needs to catch up.