25 réponses à ce sujet

[Naesaki]

Sort of requested by Starsyn, we were kind of starting to go off-topic in the Twitter thread about the genderness of Desire Demons and various things when it comes to masculininity and feminism of the other spirits and demons

So what does everyone else think?

How do you believe the various spirits and demons should be portrayed based on X circumstance and so on?

[Naesaki]

Starsyn wrote...

(Pre-Host) Justice and Valor, both good spirits, have a masculine identity (voice/build.) The only spirit I've seen with a feminine form are desire demons. Since the writers and the devs have some control over this, I wonder why they chose that route. Or if they just didn't think of it.

[Naesaki]

andar91 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

I just sent David a tweet:

@davidgaider Why is all the feminine spirits in the Fade demons? Where is the feminine good spirits?

Well, we haven't really seen many "good" fade spirits at all, have we? They don't really have gender anyway...

Desire demon.
{smilie}

They've always appeared as female, but they can take any form that they think will please their victim. I strongly suspect their appearance in the games is based on the male gaze, though (i.e. straight men are assumed to be playing and therefore must be titilated).


I mean, she made sense for that one templar in the tower, but I would have thought she'd have looked quite different to, say, Connor. That said, maybe she did and we just don't see it.

[thats1evildude]

I think we worry too much about gender politics when it comes to the depiction of sexless beings who live in dreams and want to eat your soul.

[Naesaki]

Starsyn wrote...

Naesaki wrote...

I believe its been mentioned the Desire Demons are technically genderless, its just when appearing to mortal's they chose the feminine form as they believe its the most seductive, I do have an image in my head of what a male desire demon would look like.................{smilie}

I know that about the desire demons, and it makes some sense. Not much to me, because not all ladies should be drawn to a feminine form. It works I suppose. However, why can't a spirit of Faith or Justice or Valor or Compassion be feminine?

Why is masculine the default setting for any spirit that isn't a Temptress? {smilie}

That's why I sent David the tweet. I know it might cause a storm on the forums and I'd rather see if he's up for answering it directly. Or going onto his blog to talk about it further than just a tweet.

[Heimdall]

Well, despite having deep intimidating voices, I'd argue that all demons besides Desire Demons haven't been portrayed with any gender at all. Desire Demons being the exception for obvious reasons. There were meant to be male form desire demons in DAO also, but they never made it in for technical reasons.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 07 février 2014 - 01:08 .

[CuriousArtemis]

thats1evildude wrote...

I think we worry too much about gender politics when it comes to the depiction of sexless beings who live in dreams and want to eat your soul.

It wouldn't be a big deal, if they weren't all universally presented as being male, except for the sl*tty ones.

[CuriousArtemis]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Well, despite having deep intimidating voices, I'd argue that all demons besides Desire Demons haven't been portrayed with any gender at all. Desire Demons being the exception for obvious reasons. There were meant to be male form desire demons in DAO also, but they never made it in for technical reasons.

They're all given male voice actors and many times given male forms, or variations of male forms.

[Grieving Natashina]

LOL! Eh, what Naesaki said. It wasn't a huge political thought on my part, nor am I complaining about women's rights. It was a general curiosity and I'm wondering if we'll see more variety in the future. I'm honestly thinking that this wasn't something that the writing team thought of.

Note: I never said they actually had genders.  I did say they seem to prefer male forms over female.

So far it's true that we haven't seen many spirits. I just find it odd that spirits somehow overall prefer male forms over female in game. They have had chances before to show us some variety. Why can't we see a feminine spirit of Honor, for instance? Is it because traditionally women are usually thought of as "softer?"

Modifié par Starsyn, 07 février 2014 - 01:13 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Male should not be default. Having no females does not equal "genderlessness." Here's an example:

http://www.shortpack...dex.php?id=1998

[CuriousArtemis]

Starsyn wrote...

LOL! Eh, what Naesaki said. It wasn't a huge political thought on my part, nor am I complaining about women's rights.

It's okay to point out when something is a bit off, though. Doesn't make a person a screaming, raging femin*zi (I hate that term, btw). 

Starsyn wrote...

Why can't we see a feminine spirit of Honor, for instance? Is it because traditionally women are usually thought of as "softer?"

Honor would be an awesome depiction of a female spirit. (Too bad Justice was presented as male, since Justice is usually female.) I hope they don't make traditionally "feminine" characteristics like "compassion" and "kindness" female, while making "powerful" characteristics like Justice male. Blergh.

[Fast Jimmy]

motomotogirl wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

I think we worry too much about gender politics when it comes to the depiction of sexless beings who live in dreams and want to eat your soul.

It wouldn't be a big deal, if they weren't all universally presented as being male, except for the sl*tty ones.

Call me crazy, but I always pictured Wynne's Faith spirit as female. Do the books go into any details on this? 

Also, aren't pride demons female? I mean... they are purple. :innocent:

[CuriousArtemis]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Call me crazy, but I always pictured Wynne's Faith spirit as female. Do the books go into any details on this? 

No details, I don't think... believe it or not, I did genuinely think of Faith as genderless. I pictured a fluttering wave of blue light. A voice like a chorus maybe.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, aren't pride demons female? I mean... they are purple. :innocent:

A booming female voice coming from that ultra masculine form would've been awesome 

[Hellion Rex]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Call me crazy, but I always pictured Wynne's Faith spirit as female. Do the books go into any details on this? 

Also, aren't pride demons female? I mean... they are purple. :innocent:

I agree on Faith. I had always picture it as female.

[Grieving Natashina]

Pride Demons have a very masculine voice. I won't say they have a masculine build though; they do look as gender-less as a golem. Still, why does the voice always have to be a man's?

I picture Faith as feminine as well, but we have yet to see it in game.  I'd like to see a representation of a feminine spirit in game.  I would also hope for one of Honor or even of Justice.  Surely the spirit the PC knows as Justice can't be the only one to exist.

Modifié par Starsyn, 07 février 2014 - 01:19 .

[Naesaki]

Its quite refreshing to be able to have a fairly civil discussion about things like this, I just find it all very interesting

[Fast Jimmy]

motomotogirl wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, aren't pride demons female? I mean... they are purple. :innocent:

A booming female voice coming from that ultra masculine form would've been awesome 

To be fair, Shale's voice doesn't sound feminine, despite her being female.

Maybe the Pride demons ARE all female in nature, they just have a form that sounds male to humans...? 

I mean... try being 15 feet tall with biceps the size of VW Bugs and sounding petite and feminine!

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 07 février 2014 - 01:25 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Starsyn wrote...

Pride Demons have a very masculine voice. I won't say they have a masculine build though; they do look as gender-less as a golem. Still, why does the voice always have to be a man's?

Slim waist + barrell chest and shoulder is actually extremely masculine. Think of characters like Gaston and King Triton from Disney films... drawn by gay men, by the way!

[Heimdall]

motomotogirl wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Well, despite having deep intimidating voices, I'd argue that all demons besides Desire Demons haven't been portrayed with any gender at all. Desire Demons being the exception for obvious reasons. There were meant to be male form desire demons in DAO also, but they never made it in for technical reasons.

They're all given male voice actors and many times given male forms, or variations of male forms.

Like I said, despite deep voices.  Rage Demons and Shades have... Arms, and Pride Demon forms are bipedal humanoids, nothing I would call specifically male.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 07 février 2014 - 01:26 .

[Banxey]

In the mage origin Sloth also had a male voice (though was essentially a bereskarn), and Mouse was male by choice. So even if the intent is to portray them as genderless, they all do end up seemingly male.

It is most likely due to a combination of budget and time. But even so, it would be nice if there were male and female desire demons in future. It would be even nicer if they weren't dependent on player character gender. But I'm sure they would have to be limited to demons who don't directly try to tempt the player, lest the forums explode into a fiery pit of rage.

Modifié par Banxey2, 07 février 2014 - 03:48 .

[Potato Cat]

I always gender Wynne's spirit as female. And Hope spirits too, the strongest 'good' spirits.

Oh and a masculine voice does not a male gender identity make. Assuming demons even have a concept of such things.

[Grieving Natashina]

Most of us have agreed that demons/spirits do not have a gender, including me. We're just wondering why the representation is always in the masculine form. For instance, it would be possible to have a soft spoken lady VA represent Sloth. Or have a feminine version of Honor to represent one of the Virtues.

Edit: Or more gender neutral voices, like Shale.  Shale always sounded neither entirely feminine nor masculine to me, which I would also welcome in the demons and spirits in Thedas.  That character is proof that there is room for gender neutral voiced spirits.

This is something the writers can acknowledge and hopefully address later. Outside of the desire demons, I also can't think of any other spirit or demon as represented as feminine in the games.  I stress that part because I'd like to see representation of this in the main medium of Thedas, which is the games themselves.

Alas, I'm not sure if BioWare has any interest in addressing this or are even able to. Still, I hope they read the thread, and considered our thoughts at least. 

Modifié par Starsyn, 07 février 2014 - 04:06 .

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I thought spirits and demons have no genders. Sort of like the daedra.

[Lexxbomb]

I guess if you want to see a theoretical Male Desire deamon you could check out
Warning NSFW

http://oglaf.com/bfcs/

[Anvos]

As for the genders they chose its likely just based on observation of the physical world and what more often aligns with their core feature.

As for desire, it makes more sense for it to take a feminine form as it would seem that your chances of a female cross appealing to the female gender are higher than a male cross appealing to the male gender. Plus whenever I try and picture a male desire demon I keep ending up getting stuck at something looking Fabio like only wearing a loin cloth.