86 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

StreetMagic wrote...

I can honestly say I've never analyzed any of the various explosions much.

Refuse doesn't even get an explosion.

Although the reason why I chose Control pre-EC is that it allowed the galaxy to escape the destruction of the destroyed relays and allows Shepard to control the Reapers into self-destructing or flying into the sun, which accomplishes everything Destroy sets out to do only better since the Geth survive.

Also is there any definate state of what the Reapers actually are? Are they AIs, VIs, RC bots, gestalt intelligences, parts of the Catalyst? Are they all the Catalyst?

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 08 février 2014 - 06:53 .

[dreamgazer]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I can honestly say I've never analyzed any of the various explosions much.

Refuse doesn't even get an explosion.

I keep wondering if the Refuse crowd would really appreciate the imagery of all life being wiped out of existence.

[ImaginaryMatter]

dreamgazer wrote...

I keep wondering if the Refuse crowd would really appreciate the imagery of all life being wiped out of existence.

Not all life. The Yahg and maybe those bird things will carry us to victory!

I think most Refusers wanted some sort of blaze of glory final fight, instead of a cut to black. But I can understand why BioWare wouldn't want to put effort into that sort of thing. Luckily, there's a mod for that.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 08 février 2014 - 06:57 .

[shodiswe]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I can honestly say I've never analyzed any of the various explosions much.

Refuse doesn't even get an explosion.

Although the reason why I chose Control pre-EC is that it allowed the galaxy to escape the destruction of the destroyed relays and allows Shepard to control the Reapers into self-destructing or flying into the sun, which accomplishes everything Destroy sets out to do only better since the Geth survive.

Also is there any definate state of what the Reapers actually are? Are they AIs, VIs, RC bots, gestalt intelligences, parts of the Catalyst? Are they all the Catalyst?

The catalyst talks about the Reapers as some kind of third party that does as instruced and what they were created for.
It clearly destincts itself from the Reapers when it's talking about "them".
It seems like the Reapers are starshipsized husks that does as commanded, they are most likely controled by the Catalyst with indoctrination signals.
Which explains how the Leviathans can talk about enslaving the Reapers just like they did with husks. They simply hijack the signal with their own broadcasts.

The Reapers arn't part of the Catalyst, they are just remants of harvested and enslaved civilisations that have been turned into gigantic husks that looks like Leviathans.

The Catalyst existed before the Reapers, it created them to store civilisations and to use them as tools, this we're told. 
It would be inefficient to spread ones conciousness all over the galaxy, massive lag and bottlenecks.

The catalyst refers to them as they. Therefor they are not him/it unless the Catalyst is completely mentalyinsane.

This is also forshadowed by Vendeta telling you the Reapers arnt the Masters, they are being controled by someone else.

Modifié par shodiswe, 08 février 2014 - 09:11 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, the Catalyst says that the Citadel is only a part of him. That means that not all of him is on the Citadel so even with the Citadel's damage at least a part of him exists.

[shodiswe]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Well, the Catalyst says that the Citadel is only a part of him. That means that not all of him is on the Citadel so even with the Citadel's damage at least a part of him exists.

It never said "only a part of". That's entierly invented by some of the fans of this forum.

I always interpreted that part as the Catalyst reversing the logic of Shepards statement, Shepard sees thigns from the point of view of the physical world while the Catalyst sees things from the point of view of the "digital world".

The Synthetics of the Mass Effect universe seems to consider their own thoughts more real and more certain than the physical world that they can't prove other than to trust that the feedback they recive of it is true.
While the Organics seems to think that the Physical world and objects in it are more real and certain than their own thoughts, fantacies, memories or feelings. While they are both seeing and experiensing the same things their life philosophy seems to differ. One values physicalform over thoguht while the other values thought over physicalform.
Organics are more materialistic, while Synthetics are more focused on their mental existance.

http://www.youtube.c...x_smmq_3AE#t=20

This is a transcript of the Shepard - Catalyst conversation. The text inside ( ) are how I interpret Shepards reasoning during the conversation. in some cases possibly the Catalysts reasoning.

Shepard: Where am I?

Catalyst: The Citadel, It's my home. (This is where I live, I'm hosted inside the Citadel)

Comment; note that it didn't say it's part of it's home or summer cabin in the mountains or something, this is it.

Shepard: Who are you? (what is this? Some kind of VI or AI?)

Catalyst: I am the Catalyst!

Shepard: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst. (I didn't expect an AI here, I thought it was all plug and play)

Catalyst: No, the Citadel is part of me. (It's the physical extension of myself) (also note that it didn't say "a" part of me)(I'm more important, I'm more real!)

Shepard: I need to stop the Reapers, Do you know how to do that?(Maybe this AI was planted here by whoever created the Crusible plans to make it work, please help us!)

Catalyst: Perhaps, I control the Reapers, They are my solution. (The reapers are my toys that I throw at the problem like a hammer til I figure out a better, longer lasting solution)(Also notice the "They" part.)

Shepard: Solution? To what? (What the **** is going on here?)

It also mentiones that it embodies the collective intelligence of the Reapers, their harvested knowledge.
Yet the Reapers don't seem directly aware of it, and it was created before them. It also said it controls them.


Given that the relay network is conected to the Citadel it's possible it might, possibly have some connection to it/them aswell but it's never mentioned.

It's likely it only resides in the Citadel, however it considers it's mental functions more imporant than it's appendages, which btw have been crippled since they no longer obeys it.
It might have a copy of all the downloaded knowledge harvested when each Reaper was created, possibly as part of it's research.
What type of conection it has made to the individual Reapers are unclear. Is it using them as remote servers to boost it's processing power? Or merely as tools and receptacles for the DNA slush that they are filled with?

It clearly considers the Citadel it's home, it's central point of existance. What are the Reapers then? the things it refers to as "They" a thirdperson entity. The bottlenecks created by spreading your conciousness across the whole galaxy and beyond would likely be too mcuh so it's likely lokalised it's existance on the Citadel.
Similary to how the Geth created the Dyson servercloud to house their people and allow them to function better together without being separated from each other.

So, either it does reside on the Citadel, in it's "Home" or it's scitzofrenic with multiplepersonalities and talking about itself in third person when referign to otherpars of itself.

It's up for individual interpretation and that's how the Witers left it, and possibly intended it...  "Lots of speculation" as they put it in one of their early drafts.

Modifié par shodiswe, 08 février 2014 - 10:55 .

[shodiswe]

The Geth and EDI are also used to show this difference in perspective between Organic and Synthetic. EDI also questions the existance of the physical world. Even if that's partialy quoting some scientific theories.

Modifié par shodiswe, 08 février 2014 - 10:57 .

[Sir DeLoria]

I don't care if the Catalyst survives Synthesis, it sucks and I'm not picking it anyway. I never got why the writers loved this terribly written ending so much.

[shodiswe]

When you talk to Legion and demand answers as to his interest in Shepard, then his answer is. Your code is superior.
To a Geth it's the mental components of a lifeform that matters, Shepards mind, selfpreservation instinct and so on, the body is more like an organic mobile platform to them.

What the Catalyst did was download the minds of the Organic species it harvested and stored them in memorybanks and used them for different processes if they were useful.
The DNA and such was extracted and stored to preserve the blueprints for their "mobileplatforms".

In the Geth server mission Legion used the cerberus overlord technology to download Shepards "code" into the Geth server and used Shepard as anti-Reaper software.

I think one of the things the writers might have wanted to convey was the difference between the Synthetic perspective on life compared to the Organic's perspective of what's life.

In the mass effect universe, when an Organic get's old they eventualy die because their body gives out on them. A Geth might ask, why don't you clone a new body and transfer your mind to a new body? You could live forever!

To a Geth the soul is your memories, experiences and "code" that determines who you are, a mobileplatform or organic body which they likely consider a platform aswell would just be that, a platform or tool for the mind/soul.

In a way, the Catalyst reasoning makes sense from it's point of view, it belived the organics were about to kill themselves with synthetics, so it downloaded them and stored them til it could figureout how to stop all the pointless killing. Unfortunately a lot of people died trying to resist and the Catalyst couldn't understand why people had a problem with being saved, it just assumed the organics and Synthetics who resisted simply didn't understand.

The Geth didn't like the Catalysts solution either, because it took away their freedom to persue their own future. This is exactly what Legion told us in ME2, the Reapers would harvest them aswell, scan their platforms and technology an download their programs and then imprison them for millions or billions of years or however long it took the Catalyst to figure something out.
It was the loss of their freedom that the Geth Objected to.
The Heretics might have hoped that the Catalyst or Reapers would deliver them from the tyrany and fear of destruction at the hands of Organics.
The True Geth rejected the Reapers offer of getting put into a zoo for possibly billions of years and loosing their freedom that they had fought for and which they thought they deserved.
The Geth resistance wasn't as much about resisting new technology as it was about resisting incarceration and loosing their freedom to persue their own future, building the dysonsphere and figuring out the secrets of the universe and the meaning of life.

When the Citadel explodes in Synthesis the Catalysts home is destroyed and it dies, if there is a fragment of it's code left somewhere it still, most likely wouldn't be the Catalyst, just a fragment.
In destroy it explodes aswell.
In Control we were told the Catalyst would be erased and overwritten with Shepards psyche.
I'm not certain, but it should be possible to download Shepard into a Clonebody using the Overlord technology that Legion used to download Shepard into the Geth Servers.

Bottomline, the Catalyst dies in every ending but Refuse.
It understands nothing it didn't understand before, it just dies. It most likely never learns that Organics are very fond of the platforms they are born with, and don't like the idea of getting separated from it. It most likely thinks the Needs of the many is more imporant than the wants of the many.

You want a feast, but you need sustenance. It gives you what it thinks you need, not what you want. What you want can wait a few billion years til it figures out how to set things right.
From it's point of view it's immortal and all life could be immortal, it's in no hurry and it really thinks you can wait with that party til the threat of certain annihilation has passed.

It probably considers all the lifeforms of the galaxy both Organics and Geth/synthetics to be impatient children who don't understand what's best for them. It's existed for a billion years while the oldest lifeforms in the galaxy (organic or synthetic) are like newborn babies to it.

[DeinonSlayer]

You're surrendering to what it wanted all along, so no, I'd say if anything it sees itself as having been validated.

[DoomsdayDevice]

shodiswe wrote...

In the mass effect universe, when an Organic get's old they eventualy die because their body gives out on them. A Geth might ask, why don't you clone a new body and transfer your mind to a new body? You could live forever!

It's not that simple though. You could download and copy someone's mind to a new platform, but that new being would not be that exact same person. It would just be someone else with a copy of that other person's mind and memories. It would only think it was that other person.

[shodiswe]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

In the mass effect universe, when an Organic get's old they eventualy die because their body gives out on them. A Geth might ask, why don't you clone a new body and transfer your mind to a new body? You could live forever!

It's not that simple though. You could download and copy someone's mind to a new platform, but that new being would not be that exact same person. It would just be someone else with a copy of that other person's mind and memories. It would only think it was that other person.

Yet there is nothing left of the lifeform you were 10 years ago. Every molocule has been replaced. Are you no longer the same person you were 10 years ago? Is that person dead?
We're constantly replacing neural, muscle, skin, bone. We age because the repairs start compounding errors in the repair and patching of the body. Eventualy there are just too many construction flaws to support the continued life of the lifeform.

You are a copy of a copy of a copy that's also adding new memories and experiences to the copied experiences.

What makes you, you? The memories of who you were, quit a few bodies ago? Or that which you currently are, that will cease to exist in afew years but coppies of those memories will remain and new coppies will be made til the day you die.

Then, who are you? And whats real?

Modifié par shodiswe, 08 février 2014 - 06:13 .

[shodiswe]

StreetMagic wrote...

Necanor wrote...

I don't care if the Catalyst survives Synthesis, it sucks and I'm not picking it anyway. I never got why the writers loved this terribly written ending so much.

They seem like hardcore liberals and collectivists. And when it comes to differences, these people tend to have a bad habit of ignoring differences, not actually working them out or valuing individuals, and just declaring we're "all the same" (or in this case, transforming everyone as the same).

This has been their agenda all along. It's why the Asari are the beloved race.

Let go of your physical shell. Reach out to grasp the threads that
bind us, one to another. Every action sends ripples across the galaxy.
Every idea must touch another mind to live. Each emotion must mark
another's spirit. We are all connected. Every living being united in a
single glorious existence. Open yourself to the universe. Embrace
eternity!

Shepard and the Catalyst make this bullsh*t a reality.

People are still the people they were before but they got an Iphone 10billion installed as a freebie.
There are still Krogans, Humans, Asari and Geth. And whatever else there was before.

The Krogans build Korgan cities, the Humans rebuild London, and then they keep inventing and developing.

Im not agaistn Synthesis, but I prefer Control, because then people can find their own way.

Synthesis is my second choice.

[DeinonSlayer]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

In the mass effect universe, when an Organic get's old they eventualy die because their body gives out on them. A Geth might ask, why don't you clone a new body and transfer your mind to a new body? You could live forever!

It's not that simple though. You could download and copy someone's mind to a new platform, but that new being would not be that exact same person. It would just be someone else with a copy of that other person's mind and memories. It would only think it was that other person.

Ever seen that Arnold movie, "The Sixth Day?"

Corporate assassin gets killed. Corporate assassin gets cloned. Corporate assassin gets her memories copy/pasted from the dead original, wakes up cursing the incompetent coworker who got her last body killed, takes her earrings from her cold dead body, b****es for a moment about having to pierce her ears again, and goes back to work.

I'd say they're the same person. Copy/paste a murderer, and both the copy and the original are guilty of murder.

Destroy is my first choice. Synthesis is somewhere in the vicinity of sticking a garden fork through my own foot..

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 08 février 2014 - 06:18 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

I disagree. Let's say they made a perfect clone of yourself, mind memories, everything. On the day you'd die, you'd be gone. It's not like you would suddenly find yourself inside this clone body, just because its mind is an exact same copy of yours. All that would be left, would be that clone who would simply think it was you.

[DeinonSlayer]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I disagree. Let's say they made a perfect clone of yourself, mind memories, everything. On the day you'd die, you'd be gone. It's not like you would suddenly find yourself inside this clone body, just because its mind is an exact same copy of yours. All that would be left, would be that clone who would simply think it was you.

So if we cloned someone who shot ten people, it'd be OK to give the original the needle and let the replicant mosey on down to a gun shop?

EDIT: sorry, that was kind of tasteless.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 08 février 2014 - 06:26 .

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

In the mass effect universe, when an Organic get's old they eventualy die because their body gives out on them. A Geth might ask, why don't you clone a new body and transfer your mind to a new body? You could live forever!

It's not that simple though. You could download and copy someone's mind to a new platform, but that new being would not be that exact same person. It would just be someone else with a copy of that other person's mind and memories. It would only think it was that other person.

Ever seen that Arnold movie, "The Sixth Day?"

Corporate assassin gets killed. Corporate assassin gets cloned. Corporate assassin gets her memories copy/pasted from the dead original, wakes up cursing the incompetent coworker who got her last body killed, takes her earrings from her cold dead body, b****es for a moment about having to pierce her ears again, and goes back to work.

I'd say they're the same person. Copy/paste a murderer, and both the copy and the original are guilty of murder.

Destroy is my first choice. Synthesis is somewhere in the vicinity of sticking a garden fork through my own foot..

If it's a perfect transfer or at least a near perfect transfer then they would be the same person.

It's just s if their body would repair itself, but instead of just repairing small amounts of damage or replacing one organ you replace all of them, but still remains the same person.

It's kind of unnerving, and it's contraproductive for evolution. Unless ofcourse you start genemodifying your clones. I have a feeling people would screw that up bigtime however. Kind of like the Asguard from Stargate SG1.
They started cloning themselves then they began changing their bodies to suit their new habits.

[DeinonSlayer]

@shodiswe I'd say synthesis is far more unnerving, but yeah, I agree they're the same person.

Perhaps a better example would be *SPOILERS* The Prestige. Guy wasn't even sure who was the original and who was the copy each night, only that one of them was going to die.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 08 février 2014 - 06:29 .

[shodiswe]

StreetMagic wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Necanor wrote...

I don't care if the Catalyst survives Synthesis, it sucks and I'm not picking it anyway. I never got why the writers loved this terribly written ending so much.

They seem like hardcore liberals and collectivists. And when it comes to differences, these people tend to have a bad habit of ignoring differences, not actually working them out or valuing individuals, and just declaring we're "all the same" (or in this case, transforming everyone as the same).

This has been their agenda all along. It's why the Asari are the beloved race.

Let go of your physical shell. Reach out to grasp the threads that
bind us, one to another. Every action sends ripples across the galaxy.
Every idea must touch another mind to live. Each emotion must mark
another's spirit. We are all connected. Every living being united in a
single glorious existence. Open yourself to the universe. Embrace
eternity!

Shepard and the Catalyst make this bullsh*t a reality.

People are still the people they were before but they got an Iphone 10billion installed as a freebie.
There are still Krogans, Humans, Asari and Geth. And whatever else there was before.

The Krogans build Korgan cities, the Humans rebuild London, and then they keep inventing and developing.

Im not agaistn Synthesis, but I prefer Control, because then people can find their own way.

Synthesis is my second choice.

So if i planted the seeds of enmity between Turian and Krogan (not doing the Bomb mission, for example), do you think there will still be conflict after Synthesis? I'd love to put everyone to the test, to see how "individual" they still are. Poke/prod/try to get everyone pissed off at each other, etc..

Possibly, the Catalyst didn't care about that type of conflict. The Catalyst was worreid about Organics being destroyed by synthetics, Because, the Leviathans had programmed the Catalyst to care about synthetics destroying Organics. Because the Leviathans wanted Organic slaves. But the mission was merely stated to create peace between Organics and Synthetics or to stop them from destroying each other.

To the Catalyst Synthesis works like a loophole. It doesn't have to stop all violence forever. All it has to do is make sure they arn't purely organic.
If both sides are part machine, part organic then the conflic isn't Synthetic vs Organic. The Catalyst has suceeded to create a loophole allowing it to finnish it's mission.

You can't get rid of conflict, conflict and competition is the driving force for all life. Even the Geth are competing, evolvign, advancing, proposing new ideas for change. Sometiems, as we've been shown they don't agree and there could even be an armed conflict between Geth.

[DoomsdayDevice]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I disagree. Let's say they made a perfect clone of yourself, mind memories, everything. On the day you'd die, you'd be gone. It's not like you would suddenly find yourself inside this clone body, just because its mind is an exact same copy of yours. All that would be left, would be that clone who would simply think it was you.

So if we cloned someone who shot ten people, it'd be OK to give the original the needle and let the replicant mosey on down to a gun shop?

EDIT: sorry, that was kind of tasteless.

But that is entirely beside my point. It's not about whether the copy is guilty of the original's actions. What I mean is that your consciousness, when your body dies, would not suddenly find itself in the body of the clone. When the original dies, the lights go out for that person, it's over. It's dead. It's not like suddenly the original would find itself inside that other body. That's just a perfect copy that lives on. It's not eternal life for that original being. It's just immortality of that persona, which is not the same thing.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 08 février 2014 - 06:37 .

[DeinonSlayer]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I disagree. Let's say they made a perfect clone of yourself, mind memories, everything. On the day you'd die, you'd be gone. It's not like you would suddenly find yourself inside this clone body, just because its mind is an exact same copy of yours. All that would be left, would be that clone who would simply think it was you.

So if we cloned someone who shot ten people, it'd be OK to give the original the needle and let the replicant mosey on down to a gun shop?

EDIT: sorry, that was kind of tasteless.

But that is entirely beside my point. It's not about whether the copy is guilty of the original's actions. What I mean is that your consciousness, when your body dies, would not suddenly find itself in the body of the clone. When the original dies, the lights go out for that person, it's over. It's dead. It's not like suddenly the original would find itself inside that other body. That's just a perfect copy that lives on.

And if the copy doesn't know (or knows and doesn't care) that it's a copy?