86 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

StreetMagic wrote...

Meh. None of these really matter in the end, unless we examine them closely. That's just good science and investigation. How can we really say anything works unless we test it out? Do we just rely on the underlying theories? Because there are no underlying theories. It's a ****ing children's story. All of it. I'm surprised I even wasted time on it.

It does come across that way more and more, doesn't it? I know I've spent more time on it (particularly on these boards) than it merits.

[DoomsdayDevice]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I disagree. Let's say they made a perfect clone of yourself, mind memories, everything. On the day you'd die, you'd be gone. It's not like you would suddenly find yourself inside this clone body, just because its mind is an exact same copy of yours. All that would be left, would be that clone who would simply think it was you.

So if we cloned someone who shot ten people, it'd be OK to give the original the needle and let the replicant mosey on down to a gun shop?

EDIT: sorry, that was kind of tasteless.

But that is entirely beside my point. It's not about whether the copy is guilty of the original's actions. What I mean is that your consciousness, when your body dies, would not suddenly find itself in the body of the clone. When the original dies, the lights go out for that person, it's over. It's dead. It's not like suddenly the original would find itself inside that other body. That's just a perfect copy that lives on.

And if the copy doesn't know (or knows and doesn't care) that it's a copy?

That changes nothing about the fact that the original person is dead. It does not experience a second life or immortality.

[shodiswe]

The Catalyst was given an impossible mission and so it created an equaly impossible and crazy solution.

It's like it's playing devils advocate, if neither client qualifies to be judged according to law then there is no case. If there is no case then it's not a concern for the Catalyst. Mission accomplished.

If the solution accomplished what the Leviathans asked for is unclear, but the catalyst completed it's mission. It's solution might be as impopular to the Leviathans as it's decision to begin harvesting Leviathans.

They didn't ask the Catalyst to harvest them, yet it did so. They asked the Catalyst to stop war from happening between Organics and Synthetics, it stopped it from happening by making all organics become superadvanced cyborgversions of who they were. And somehow the Geth and EDI might have been altered aswell, who knows.

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Meh. None of these really matter in the end, unless we examine them closely. That's just good science and investigation. How can we really say anything works unless we test it out? Do we just rely on the underlying theories? Because there are no underlying theories. It's a ****ing children's story. All of it. I'm surprised I even wasted time on it.

It does come across that way more and more, doesn't it? I know I've spent more time on it (particularly on these boards) than it merits.

It's a waste of time, but I got plenty of time to waste. I pretty much got an eternity it feels like.

[CrutchCricket]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
What I mean is that your consciousness, when your body dies, would not suddenly find itself in the body of the clone.

Yes it would. If it's a perfect transfer, lights go out on the original, lights come on on the copy. There may be a gap in consciousness but it would be indistinguishable from normal unconsciousness or dreamless sleep.

You want to say it's not the same person, you need to define a unique quality, tangible or otherwise, prove its existence and prove it does not get transfered via cloning. In other words you need to define identity, and trust me plenty of heavy thinkers are still working on that one.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 08 février 2014 - 06:57 .

[shodiswe]

CrutchCricket wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
What I mean is that your consciousness, when your body dies, would not suddenly find itself in the body of the clone.

Yes it would. If it's a perfect transfer, lights go out on the original, lights come on on the copy. There may be a gap in consciousness but it would be indistinguishable from normal unconsciousness or dreamless sleep.

You want to say it's not the same person, you need to define a unique quality, tangible or otherwise, prove its existence and prove it does not get transfered via cloning. In other words you need to define identity, and trust me plenty of heavy thinkers are still working on that one.

Most objections would likely be religious or philosophical in some way.
They would not be tangiable, quatifiable or something that can be tested or proven in any kind of scientific way.

There would be philosophical discussions, people talking about enjoying jogging or eating/drinking something special, or people pointing fingers at millenia old religios text saying souls are special and then make their own interpretations of what was written millenia ago and then claim it somehow applies to this new situation somehow even if noone can test it. They just have to belive and have faith in their interpretaion of the words.

[shodiswe]

I think the catalyst understands all along, that noone wants to get stored in a prison like state for billions of years or for all eternity. Even the Geth dislikes this notion, because it takes away their freedom to live their own lives.

It just doesn't care because it has a job to do. If it would have survived into synthesis then it would likely still belive it had to do it's job, even if it admits it was against the wills of so many.
But we know a lot of humans do terrible thigns to others against their will.
Some care more than others, the same applies to the Catalyst I'm sure.

But I've decided it dies in all endings(explosion or memorywipe), unless Bioware tells us otherwise later.

[durasteel]

Nothing about the green ending can survive rational analysis. The entire premise of the green ending is so absolutely ridiculous that you can't really apply logic to infer additional details. Really, unless the answer is expressly stated in one of the slides after the space magic special effects, the only honest answer is "I don't know."

[SwobyJ]

Very interesting discussion here

Are we more than our thoughts?

[SwobyJ]

durasteel wrote...

Nothing about the green ending can survive rational analysis. The entire premise of the green ending is so absolutely ridiculous that you can't really apply logic to infer additional details. Really, unless the answer is expressly stated in one of the slides after the space magic special effects, the only honest answer is "I don't know."

Considering that the released writer's notes used the words "End of First Matrix"... maybe you should start there?


The slides of all the endings explain all, imo.

[SwobyJ]

shodiswe wrote...

I think the catalyst understands all along, that noone wants to get stored in a prison like state for billions of years or for all eternity. Even the Geth dislikes this notion, because it takes away their freedom to live their own lives.

It just doesn't care because it has a job to do. If it would have survived into synthesis then it would likely still belive it had to do it's job, even if it admits it was against the wills of so many.
But we know a lot of humans do terrible thigns to others against their will.
Some care more than others, the same applies to the Catalyst I'm sure.

But I've decided it dies in all endings(explosion or memorywipe), unless Bioware tells us otherwise later.

I agree, actually.

However, I'm much much more sure that he/she at least survives in Control.

Yeah, it's kinda weird how it has 3 voices - two of them Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale...

Modifié par SwobyJ, 09 février 2014 - 06:24 .

[shodiswe]

SwobyJ wrote...

Very interesting discussion here

Are we more than our thoughts?

We might be in a scientific sense, depending on what qualifies.

Our mind, momories, values or Code as Legion put it to sum it all up, would be at the core of who we are, if you download it then we would have most of what forms a human being. If we download it into an identical body sucessfully then it would be the same.

The other part of our being would be our DNA that determines the makeup of our bodies. It determines (to a certain degree) the capabilities of our brain and body, how our hormones work and nervsystem.

By reacting to different stimuli our body will start produsing different types of hormones that will affect our reasoning and functions. In a way, our bodily functions and DNA programed functions could hijack our minds thoguhts and priorities for the priorities of the DNA and other bodily functions.
When we give in to it it rewards us.

So in a way, without talking about a soul we can determine there is more than our mind and logical reasoning that makes up the sum of a human being.

Modifié par shodiswe, 09 février 2014 - 09:41 .

[SwobyJ]

To remind others, I was quoting EDI herself there...

[AtlasMickey]

The Catalyst is the final component of the Crucible. When the Crucible's energy is expended, that is presumably the end of the Crucible. It is a one-off machine.

Therefore, after Synthesis, there is no more Catalyst, at least in the sense that there is no more Shepard.

This also helps inform why the Catalyst looks the way it does. Whatever happens, Shepard and the Catalyst will be combining their energy together in the Crucible in some form or another, so they are already making a psychic connection in anticipation of that. Shepard's mind interprets the Catalyst as a young child, symbolic of hope and new life, or the Catalyst reads Shepard's mind and assumes that appearance in order to appear non-threatening, or both.

Unless, of course, if you choose Refuse, then that connection breaks down.

Modifié par AtlasMickey, 09 février 2014 - 09:54 .

[shodiswe]

SwobyJ wrote...

To remind others, I was quoting EDI herself there...

And my answer to that Question is, yes to a certain degree.

You are your mind, and you are the needs of your bodily functions.


If for example a young couple who are insanely in love witheachother but they have barely had a chance to get to know each other, or at all, then suddenly their minds were torn out of their bodies and downloaded.... Then the attraction woud likely be gone since that was in most cases an attraction of the body, your genes and hormones demanding reproduction.
I'm talking about firstsight love, where the other person thoughts, kindness or values or briliance isn't what makes you love them.
You would still be you, witout your body and your carnal drive.
People who like love or enjoy each others company beyond the shallow first attraction of their genes and hormones would still love or enjoy each others company after the bodily demandy for reproduction has subsided.

The marriages and partnerships that last are those that goes beyond this initial attraction, where you got friendship and more things keeping you together than first sight love indused by hormones.

Are we more than our thoughts? Yes, we're hormone indused drugjunkies.
The funny thing is, this is the love a lot of people are looking for, the one that gets their hormones pumping.

Modifié par shodiswe, 09 février 2014 - 09:55 .

[SwobyJ]

The Catalyst 'read Shepard's mind'.

At minimum.

Probably more than that.

[SwobyJ]

shodiswe wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

To remind others, I was quoting EDI herself there...

And my answer to that Question is, yes to a certain degree.

You are your mind, and you are the needs of your bodily functions.


If for example a young couple who are insanely in love witheachother but they have barely had a chance to get to know each other, or at all, then suddenly their minds were torn out of their bodies and downloaded.... Then the attraction woud likely be gone since that was in most cases an attraction of the body, your genes and hormones demanding reproduction.
I'm talking about firstsight love, where the other person thoughts, kindness or values or briliance isn't what makes you love them.
You would still be you, witout your body and your carnal drive.
People who like love or enjoy each others company beyond the shallow first attraction of their genes and hormones would still love or enjoy each others company after the bodily demandy for reproduction has subsided.

The marriages and partnerships that last are those that goes beyond this initial attraction, where you got friendship and more things keeping you together than first sight love indused by hormones.

Are we more than our thoughts? Yes, we're hormone indused drugjunkies.
The funny thing is, this is the love a lot of people are looking for, the one that gets their hormones pumping.

May I ask what ending you chose?

[shodiswe]

SwobyJ wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

To remind others, I was quoting EDI herself there...

And my answer to that Question is, yes to a certain degree.

You are your mind, and you are the needs of your bodily functions.


If for example a young couple who are insanely in love witheachother but they have barely had a chance to get to know each other, or at all, then suddenly their minds were torn out of their bodies and downloaded.... Then the attraction woud likely be gone since that was in most cases an attraction of the body, your genes and hormones demanding reproduction.
I'm talking about firstsight love, where the other person thoughts, kindness or values or briliance isn't what makes you love them.
You would still be you, witout your body and your carnal drive.
People who like love or enjoy each others company beyond the shallow first attraction of their genes and hormones would still love or enjoy each others company after the bodily demandy for reproduction has subsided.

The marriages and partnerships that last are those that goes beyond this initial attraction, where you got friendship and more things keeping you together than first sight love indused by hormones.

Are we more than our thoughts? Yes, we're hormone indused drugjunkies.
The funny thing is, this is the love a lot of people are looking for, the one that gets their hormones pumping.

May I ask what ending you chose?

Control, though Synthesis would work aswell. But I prefer Control since it allows people to make their own choices. Also it doesn't kill people, which is a big bonus, especialy after the EC.

The EC made Control and especialy Synthesis look a lot better.

But tbh, I'm not that fond of any of the endings. But worst of all was the feeling that most of priority Earth was rushed.

[SwobyJ]

Alright, not judging btw.

In fact, I hope that if Bioware goes for anything even somewhat similar to a sequel, that you have a very interesting and good result

*MainShep and DefaultSheps (3 of them, based on when in trilogy they start) will be Breath Destroy, but I aim on having at least 4 other Sheps done that may all pick Low/High Paragon/Renegade Control or Synthesis (or maybe a Lower EMS version of Destroy for one of them too).

Modifié par SwobyJ, 09 février 2014 - 10:12 .

[shodiswe]

We're more than our minds, and we're more than our bodies.

Together it forms a functioning lifeform, be it me or my parrot.

But another question would be, would the body without a mind be alive? It has no thoughts, it's usualy called braindeath.
A mind without the body would be alive, but I don't think anyone would want to live without a body, it would be a terrible prison for sure.

If inserted into a synthetic body a lot of people would likely miss the hormone rushes, unless such things could be simulated.

According to evolution and most science the DNA molecules were first, then simple hormone driven organisms. Then after a long whiel more advanced life forms were created with multiple cell clusters and eventualy neural tissue and brains, and slowly, life became more than the body looking to reproduse and eat. It happend because this increased capability provided the body of those capable of cognitive thought and analysis of their environment better survival skills and therefor a greater probablity of sucessfully reprodusing.

The mind became an competitive advantage. So which is greater, the original bodily needs to eat and maintain bodily functions to eventualy reproduse or the mind that most humans prides themselves with and which provides them with additional kinds of meaning, reasoning and concepts of morality beyond basic needs?

Are we more than our minds? Yes. Now good luck figuring out the meaning of it all.
My body and homones tells me it's time for me to eat. Later all.

Modifié par shodiswe, 09 février 2014 - 10:20 .

[Daemul]

*cough*

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Virtual_Alien

Modifié par Daemul, 09 février 2014 - 11:47 .

[shodiswe]

Daemul wrote...

*cough*

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Virtual_Alien

I wonder if those aliens had Mass Effect technology, probably not since they had been drifting for 8000 years or more.

It's possible they were never caught in the web of the Reapers and no Relay was placed in the visinty of their homeworld.

There might be other advanced civilisations out there that lacks mass effect technology and relays. Humanity had began researching alternative FTL technology before they found the Protean archives on Mars.

[von uber]

Was the question why the catalyst didn't just open the relays itself for the reapers ever suitably handwaved away?

Oh and synthesis is just abhorrent on all levels. I'm sure the cannibals become valuable members of society.

[shodiswe]

von uber wrote...

Was the question why the catalyst didn't just open the relays itself for the reapers ever suitably handwaved away?

Oh and synthesis is just abhorrent on all levels. I'm sure the cannibals become valuable members of society.

Since the Catalyst didn't build the Citadel the Leviathans and their slave races did, it wasn't conected to all of it's systems upon creation. Instead it used it's Keeperdrones to act for it. The Proteans sabotaged that control mechanism.

We're told the Leviathans created both the hardware and the inteligence. It wouldn't have exited without hardware to get installed into to begin with. The Leviathans wanted it to conduct research for them, not rule the galaxy and harvest all life.

The Citadel is it's home, where it was created, where it lives and dwells.

It coudln't open the Relay because the Keepers(who were it's initial drones for collecting data and research) didn't respond to the Catalyst or Sovereign, they just keep doing their maintenance work for ever and ever. maintaining the Citadel and it's systems was likely the last command that the Keepers ever heard.

[shodiswe]

von uber wrote...

Was the question why the catalyst didn't just open the relays itself for the reapers ever suitably handwaved away?

Oh and synthesis is just abhorrent on all levels. I'm sure the cannibals become valuable members of society.

If the Canibals are that misserable then they can just end their own missery, they don't need someone else to tell them it's best for them to die.