86 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

An ai that could create and control the reapers as well as indoctrinate people couldn't do the simple job of opening the relays inside its own home?
Unlikely.
More likely they didn't consider this when writing the ending. Like closing down the relay network by capturing the citadel from the off or when they actually do capture it.

[Han Shot First]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

A blue explosion erupts out of it and then gets beamed all over the galaxy by the Mass Effect relays. The Citadel shows more visible damage in Destroy and Synthesis, but in all endings the Citadel gets blasted with a different color blast wave.

*sigh.

Y u no lookup vid?

Times of note:
8:21 blue wave starts (interestingly it's missing the first wave shot where we can see the whole citadel and the fleets are leaving)
8:30 blue wave spreads
9:48 Citadel closes intact
10:00 blue wave (as opposed to beam) reaches relay. Relay animations then go back to RGB recycling.

As opposed to the red and green beam firings which happen after their waves. The beams are the only things that damage the Citadel and relays. You know, because "art".

This difference was even around in the original endings.

I suppose it depends on how you view the color-coded blasts of energy. They look like explosions to me.

In any event the Catalyst is also the collective intelligence of the Reapers. There is no guarantee that even if the Citadel were completely vaporized that the Catalyst would be destroyed.

Destroy a single Geth and the programs that represent its brain often survive. They simply upload to the Geth servers and only its platform is destroyed. Why would it be different for the Catalyst, given that he is also part of a gestalt intelligence and that the Reapers are many times more technologically advanced than the Geth?

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...


Synthesizers wanting the Catalyst to be dead in their playthrough is like Destroyers claiming EDI and the Geth aren't destroyed in theirs. If you chose Synthesis, you're stuck with the Catalyst.

*snipped burden of proof .jpg*

There's absolutely no evidence in the endings to support your claim that the Catalyst is around post-Synthesis -- no sign of that clearly indicates he's still around. You've concluded this based solely off the fact he favors this option most, missing the point his of preferences entirely: he likes it because it's the ideal solution for the task he was assigned.

A task that in no way requires him to be alive to be solved ideally.

BTW, shodiswe is not a "synthesizer."

You've got that backwards. The burden of proof is on those claiming the Catalyst is destroyed in Synthesis, as there is absolutely nothing in the game to indicate that is the case. The only endings where it is specifically stated that the Catalyst will be no more are Destroy and Control.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 09 février 2014 - 01:16 .

[angol fear]

von uber wrote...

An ai that could create and control the reapers as well as indoctrinate people couldn't do the simple job of opening the relays inside its own home?
Unlikely.
More likely they didn't consider this when writing the ending. Like closing down the relay network by capturing the citadel from the off or when they actually do capture it.

Actually, the catalyst isn't part of its own solution.

[von uber]

angol fear wrote...

Actually, the catalyst isn't part of its own solution.

Personally I always see the Shepard as being the catalyst. The only thing that can change the outcome; the Protheans failed because there was no-one string enough to galvanise the galaxy into action.
Shepard is the missing element from previous cycles.
The catalyst on the citadel is just the AI trying to stop you from destroying them and trying to subvert you to their cause, as happens in all the previous cycles.

Just my personal headcanon of course.

[shodiswe]

von uber wrote...

angol fear wrote...

Actually, the catalyst isn't part of its own solution.

Personally I always see the Shepard as being the catalyst. The only thing that can change the outcome; the Protheans failed because there was no-one string enough to galvanise the galaxy into action.
Shepard is the missing element from previous cycles.
The catalyst on the citadel is just the AI trying to stop you from destroying them and trying to subvert you to their cause, as happens in all the previous cycles.

Just my personal headcanon of course.

Sounds like the IT or something. I love speculating, but the IT is just too much for me imo.

Also, I don't want ot get back into that story again, and that's what the IT calls for. I just want it to be over.

But, if the Citadel is just a Leviathan science vessel, it must have its own superpowerful FTLdrive since it's too big to use the Relay network. There was some kind of limit to how large objects could be to get sent through the relays.
It's drivecore must be a masterpiece of Leviathan engineering, far more advanced than what the Reaper dreaddnaughts are fitted with. Either it's the size or the technology used in it's creation.

The Citadel jumps to earth in but a few moments but the Reapers had to travel for years to get to this galaxy, and months within the galxy to get to the next closest relay after the relay they intended to use was destroyed.

If the Citadel is but a humble Leviathan Science vessel on which the Catalyst was created, then I wonder what Leviathan warships looks like. The Citadel is clearly an unarmed ship, with a few turrets that the council has added to it.

It's possible the only Leviathans that got harvested was the crew of the Citadel. The rest are still out there watching.

The Catalyst isn't surprised that they are still out there, it's probably known about it this whole time. It probably knows it can't fight them all. If it belived it coudl then it would have, instead it sent one ship to probe the Leviathans. It could have sent a thousand for something as significant as Leviathans.

The Leviathans claims the Catalyst or Inteligence as they call it exists because they allow it. They are still waiting for it to deliver. I wonder if Synthesis affects the Leviathans aswell.

The Reapers relay network covers less than 1% of the galaxy. (less than 1% of the galaxy has been explored by the council species)

If the next mass effect is set in the aftermath of the Reaper war, then the Leviathans and their thrall races will most likely be a part of the new story.

Kind of reminds me of starcontrol 2, the UrQuan Masters.
They sweep in and enslaves everyone, pretending to be your saviours, they are actualy pretty nasty and opressive, but then as you start fighting them you find out there is another threat that just wants to end all life alltogether.

Modifié par shodiswe, 09 février 2014 - 03:36 .

[SwobyJ]

I find it interesting the different intellectual, emotional, philosophical, technological, and theoretical perspectives that people put into interpreting Mass Effect now.

And I wonder if Bioware does too. I mean, at least on the face of things, they don't seem too upset about things do they? Maybe around EC era, but certainly not around Citadel DLC onward.

I wonder if they're enjoying this.

But anyway, from my POV at least, so many people are getting things right, just in their own way. Yeah I think IT is a - well Bioware put it right maybe, 'a valid interpretation' - and pretty much truth actually. BUT shodiswe has good stuff not to ignore, and so does HYR, and so does von uber, and so on. It's not that any one party is entirely correct, and there are debates, discussions, arguments about things, but I really get the sense that everyone is at least partially right about what's up.

Heck, even Bad Riting Theory has a point about some things. ME3 was clearly rushed beyond the time it needed.

Does Synthesis make the Catalyst understand? Maybe not at all. Maybe perfectly. But what about both, in a sense?

A lot of this depends on ME4 being either a sequel of any sort, or a sidequel that at least addresses (even if it doesn't directly relate to) ME1-ME3's content.

But at least for now, I think Bioware heads actually WANT us to discuss things like this thread.



(Note: Even opinions like "I want Shepard to continue" and "I want things to be completely over" don't have to be at such odds. Why can't Bioware do both? Seriously - it's creatively possible. Have a being that is akin to Shepard (not exactly him) for those to want to go that path and have the save file, and sprinkle references to the trilogy throughout the game. And then on the other hand, let us pick an entirely new protagonist that does the same journey but will do so in a very different and new 'blank slate' way.
It's not that everyone would be absolutely happy with these ideal results, but it would sure sound like a Bioware thing to do, to try to craft a story that at least glances as much of what as many players want. We can have a much more new story, or we can have a 'one more story' about 'Shepard', even if it's not really him anymore.

*I have to reiterate that 'reference' does not necessarily mean 'relate'.
Oh, and remind everyone that this is a hypothetical. Not really here to argue the meaning and effect of "No more Shepard" from Bioware lol)

[His Name was HYR!!]

Han Shot First wrote...

You've got that backwards. The burden of proof is on those claiming the Catalyst is destroyed in Synthesis, as there is absolutely nothing in the game to indicate that is the case. The only endings where it is specifically stated that the Catalyst will be no more are Destroy and Control.

Yes, and it's on you, too.

There's nothing to prove either assertion. The only thing we can claim definitively is to not know.

That said, it is obvious to me that the Reapers gain free-will in the Green ending, whatever the Catalyst's fate.

[CrutchCricket]

Han Shot First wrote...
I suppose it depends on how you view the color-coded blasts of energy. They look like explosions to me.

It's a light show, nothing more. The biggest clue is the Citadel closing though. Even if you think there's surface damage, if it does that, it's operational.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
That said, it is obvious to me that the Reapers gain free-will in the Green ending, whatever the Catalyst's fate.

How so? They "help rebuild" in Control as well.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think a big part of whether or not the Catalyst is still alive and 'understanding' is based off the exact nature of whatever the Catalyst/Reaper relation is. If the Reapers, for example, or nothing more than mindless puppets of the Catalyst, then them walking around in Synthesis means the Catalyst is still alive and directing them to help rebuild; unless they suddenly gained minds of their own for some reason.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 10 février 2014 - 01:29 .

[CosmicGnosis]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 I think it's got nothing to do with "organic emotions." Synthetics/AI just learn and communicate things differently.

Synthetics, going off of Legion's loyalty-mission, communicate through rapid data-exchange. But between organic and synthetic, that's not doable. Only audio communication is, which is "inefficient" (as said by Legion to EDI, per SB files).

So I don't think the Green ending makes them suddenly "get it", it just allows them to learn/communicate with us their way.

I've considered this, but I wish that this point was more obvious. And EDI has some rather strong emotions...

[shodiswe]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 I think it's got nothing to do with "organic emotions." Synthetics/AI just learn and communicate things differently.

Synthetics, going off of Legion's loyalty-mission, communicate through rapid data-exchange. But between organic and synthetic, that's not doable. Only audio communication is, which is "inefficient" (as said by Legion to EDI, per SB files).

So I don't think the Green ending makes them suddenly "get it", it just allows them to learn/communicate with us their way.

I've considered this, but I wish that this point was more obvious. And EDI has some rather strong emotions...

Maybe the Synthetics were given a Simulated hormone response program. When they are low on power they experience what organics would call hunger, when they replenish their powerlevels they experience some kind of satisfaction from that effort.
When they meet someone they really like they get simulated hormone responses.
Then they can use their improved communication system to write new little AI programs together if the other party approves... Making them kind of Synthetic Asari....

Then all of a sudden everyone understands each other!
Oh, yes, love! It's that crazy ilogical thing that hits you and you can't understand why! It's just wonderful!
And, yeah, hunger and pain is terrible!

Now they are no longer just their minds, they got a secondary feedback system throwing in "simulated hormone responses that arn't controled by their minds reasoning".

Kind of makes me think of Data from ST:TNG when he took that emotion chip.

Whatever.... It would certainly be easier than adding organic parts to synthetics that needs to be maintained.

[shodiswe]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I think a big part of whether or not the Catalyst is still alive and 'understanding' is based off the exact nature of whatever the Catalyst/Reaper relation is. If the Reapers, for example, or nothing more than mindless puppets of the Catalyst, then them walking around in Synthesis means the Catalyst is still alive and directing them to help rebuild; unless they suddenly gained minds of their own for some reason.

Each reaper contains the collective knowledge and experiences of their species(the one that was harvested), the Catalyst likely downloaded one copy to the Citadel aswell(for analysis, and to advance it's knowledge)... Which is says is it's home. Since it says it lives there one can only assume that's true.
Why lie about where it lives, why even say something like that.

The Catalyst controls the Reapers with an Iron Fist, to do it's dirtywork.

It certainly would have been inefficient to grow dependant on long distance servers to house parts of your "brain/mind" therefor I doubt the Catalyst is lying about the Citadel beign it's home, where it exists.

The rest of the conversation about wether the Catalyst is part of the Citadel or the Citadel is part of the Catalyst is more like a mirroring of different perspectives, I covered that earlier. The Catalyst was kind of offended to be regarded as an appendage to the Citadel, so it turned the tables on that comment.

It's similar to the Catalysts response to Shepards assertion that the Catalyst is just an AI, which is delivered in a condersending way.
You are just an AI, how crap isn't that?

Taking some slight offense the Catalyst tells Shepard s/he is just an animal, what makes you think you're better than me?

We know Quantum entangle ment allows direct communication at great distances, however the bandwith is very limited and the amount of data that can be transfered wouldn't be anywhere near what the Catalyst would need to outsource it's "thinking power" in any significant way.
To issue order over such a link is hard enough, to transmit cognitive thoughts would likely be impossible.

I would argue that most of the Catalyst is on the Citadel, whatever else there might be it must be an incredibly tiny fraction, more like a control program.
99%+ is likely on the citadel. It doubtful whatever isn't on the citadel could be considered alive if the main servers are destroyed when the Citadel blows up or if the Databanks are flashed/deleted for a reboot with a new personality.

Maybe the Blue wave in Control contains the reprograming code for the reapers controlnodes, to replace the current controlnodes programming and allow Shepard control.

In the end we don't know how much of the Catalyst resides in the Citadel, though since it considers the Citadel it's "Home" it's reasonable to belive that the majority if not all of it resides in the Citadel.

If, so, would the possible remnants of the Catalyst elsewhere still be "alive" with it's head chopped of when the Citadel explodes and destroys it's servers?

Would there be enough left to understand anything? would there be enough left to carry cognitive thought or carry out an argument? Or would it be more like braindead lumps at best?

Modifié par shodiswe, 10 février 2014 - 10:05 .