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[Han Shot First]

Wulfram wrote...

Of course, we've got the Asari. They're going to be totally different. And all the other serious armed forces are going to have to have an idea how to fight them, even if they are supposed to be allies.

(disclaimer: I really don't know a much about military tactics more recent than Sharpe)

On that note I wonder if the Asari might fight in relays, at least as far as their biotics go?

There is an excellent scene in the series Rome where the Roman troops are fighting Gauls, and every two minutes or so Vorenus (the Centurion) blows a whistle, and the first rank peals off and falls back to the rear with the next rank stepping forward to engage the enemy. Thus a fully rested rank has stepped forward and the the tired men who had previously been in the front get a breather. Rinse. Repeat.

Here is the scene from the series.

Obviously the Asari wouldn't be fighting in massed formations like the Romans in that television series, but with exhaustion being a problem for biotics I wonder if they might have a system in place where they'd rotate 'active' biotics in prolonged battles. That way rather than burning the entire unit out fast they could keep up a fairly steady biotic attack or defense and allow the inactive biotics (who'd be functioning as standard infantry) to get somewhat of a breather.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 08 février 2014 - 11:29 .

[Matthias King]

I think one thing that needs to be taken into consideration in this is the ME literature vs. the games, because often the conventions of gameplay and 'video gamey' elements run counter to the 'reality' of the lore, i.e. biotics in gameplay are often quite weak and watered down compared to what they're supposedly capable of according to the lore.

I'd say small unit tactics probably wouldn't change that much between today and the time of ME, and I would estimate that squads and fire teams would probably have a makeup that is pretty similar to those of today, but I would speculate that whether or not a biotic is deployed with a unit/fire team would be pretty a game changing variable for that particular unit, and whoever they go up against.

As for their rarity, Off the top of my head I don't recall seeing anything that definitively answers that, in either the games or in the novels/comics.

Squad and fireteams would probably have a makeup that is pretty similar to those of today, but having a biotic added would probably

[Khavos]

Han Shot First wrote...

All biotic units certainly do exist in the lore but the question is whether those units are the exception or the rule. Neither Kaidan or Jack's unit can be described as typical. Kaiden was in command of some sort of special operations unit, and Jack's unit was somewhat experimental. The Turians segregate their biotics into cabals, but then that seems to be due as much to discrimination as it is to any pragmatic considerations.

I'd say they're the rule, with Jack's unit being a necessity-based exception, and even pre-ME3 Kaidan to some extent.  All the other information we have about biotics in the military (with the exception of krogan, who don't seem to use tactics, period, and asari, who are all biotics anyway) points to them being used exclusively in special operations roles, and usually as self-contained units.  If they're as rare as claimed, it seems like a poor use of resources to have them buff some line company somewhere.  

[cap and gown]

StreetMagic wrote...

It sucks how the storyline presents biotics, and the extent they can be played in multiplayer. It's like an alternate universe or something (doesn't help that there's Awakened Collectors, and Geth/Krogan/Quarians if you happen to make different choices in single player).

Just an observation.

Hey! I love my Krogan Vanguard and Soldier. The Geth Trooper is also pretty cool. (The Juggernaught is too lumbering for my tastes, but hey, you gotta play as a Prime at least once. Feels good to turn the tables.

[Han Shot First]

Khavos wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

All biotic units certainly do exist in the lore but the question is whether those units are the exception or the rule. Neither Kaidan or Jack's unit can be described as typical. Kaiden was in command of some sort of special operations unit, and Jack's unit was somewhat experimental. The Turians segregate their biotics into cabals, but then that seems to be due as much to discrimination as it is to any pragmatic considerations.

I'd say they're the rule, with Jack's unit being a necessity-based exception, and even pre-ME3 Kaidan to some extent.  All the other information we have about biotics in the military (with the exception of krogan, who don't seem to use tactics, period, and asari, who are all biotics anyway) points to them being used exclusively in special operations roles, and usually as self-contained units.  If they're as rare as claimed, it seems like a poor use of resources to have them buff some line company somewhere.  

I'd have to disagree with that bolded bit.

The fact that they are rare makes it more likely that they'd be spread out amongst the military rather than deployed en masse. Deploy an entire company of biotics en masse for example, and what happens if that unit happens to be on the receiving end of an artillery bombardment or air strikes? And given that you have entire unit of biotics, its likely that they'd be given some extra attention by the enemy. Lets say a biotic company has the misfortune of being on the receiving end of air strikes that inflict 100 or so total casualties. Between wounded and killed you've now lost 100 biotics, all of whom are rare and difficult to replace and all whom represent a much more expensive resource than your average infantryman. Had biotics instead been spread out throughout your various infantry companies or battalions, you might have instead only lost a couple biotics with the rest of the casualties being standard infantrymen who are easier to replace.

Also its generally true that anything other than a combined arms approach does not work well in military operations. Given that biotics have some limitations as well within the Mass Effect universe (just like infantry or armor or artillery, ect) it wouldn't make much sense IMO to deploy them outside of a combined arms approach. Biotics would be best deployed in a similar manner to scout/snipers; often detached from their parent units and attached to line companies as the mission dictates.

The way I picture that working is if an infantry company were assaulting an objective and biotic support was needed, some biotics might be detached from the equivalent of a Weapons or H & S company in that infantry company's battalion to support that assault. Since its never stated how rare exactly biotics are I'm not sure what that would look like. Would there be enough to have each squad in that company reinforced with a biotic, or one biotic per platoon? In either case in that role the biotic wouldn't necessarily be limited to just defensive barriers. The biotic would not be any further in the rear than the rest of squad or platoon or company he or she was attached to and would be using the full range of their offensive or defensive abilities.

I imagine the combat engineers in the MEU would function similarly, with teams of engineers attached to line companies if it was determined that they needed drone or turret support for a mission.

[cap and gown]

Combined arms is not the same as spread out willy, nilly. A Panzer division was a combined arms unit, but it also grouped the tanks into one division rather than spreading them out among all the infantry divisions like the French did at the start of the war. That is what gave a Pz division its punch.

I would think biotics would be treated the same way. A biotic unit would consist of many biotics, but also contain many non-biotics as well to support and protect the biotics.

[KrrKs]

Hmm I guess the impact of biotics on the different species is quite unique.
(Also, i have no clue about real military, so these are all guesses)

Asari: Their Militia- Members are all (experienced) biotics. Also that their Commandos are named Huntresses is a strong clue of how they work. I guess they also employ more guerilla like tactics.

Batarians: While there are Batarian biotics, we don't know how many. They seem to be employed like regular 'Troops' in their raiding- parties.

Turians: I'm not sure if there ever was an instance where their Cabal unit activities were mentioned, so we don't know how (or if) they act.

Humans: Biotics are few, and can use their abilities only for a short time before they need to sleep/recover. As such I don't think that they are (individually) attached to different units/squads/whatever. If the biotic had to excessively use its abilities he/she would just be 'dead weight' for a significant amount of time afterwards -I can't imagine someone risking that while expecting hostile encounters.
I'm rather of the opinion that the Alliance operates dedicated larger groups* of biotics (supported maybe by a few regular riflemen). -*I'm guessing in the range of 5-30 persons or so.
That way the group can dish out rather prolonged attacks without any single person being overly exhausted -so the group can remain mobile for quite some time.

-I know that game evidence (Kaidan) as well as the codex entries (e.g. Game creation screen on Vanguards) suggest otherwise-

Salarians/Quarians/Elcor/Volus/Hanar all either don't have known biotics or no military.

[cap and gown]

KrrKs wrote...

Salarians/Quarians/Elcor/Volus/Hanar all either don't have known biotics or no military.

How could you forget Niftu Cal, the biotic god?

[shodiswe]

Biotics provides a tactical edge and additional options, but it's not an automatic I win button.

Unless a non-biotic tries to charge a strongbiotic in hand to hand combat. Then I would think the Biotic would win as long as the non-biotic fails to make physical contact.

Modifié par shodiswe, 09 février 2014 - 03:42 .

[Khavos]

Han Shot First wrote...

I'd have to disagree with that bolded bit.

The fact that they are rare makes it more likely that they'd be spread out amongst the military rather than deployed en masse. Deploy an entire company of biotics en masse for example, and what happens if that unit happens to be on the receiving end of an artillery bombardment or air strikes? And given that you have entire unit of biotics, its likely that they'd be given some extra attention by the enemy. Lets say a biotic company has the misfortune of being on the receiving end of air strikes that inflict 100 or so total casualties. Between wounded and killed you've now lost 100 biotics, all of whom are rare and difficult to replace and all whom represent a much more expensive resource than your average infantryman. Had biotics instead been spread out throughout your various infantry companies or battalions, you might have instead only lost a couple biotics with the rest of the casualties being standard infantrymen who are easier to replace.  

You're assuming they're used like conventional forces, which almost all of the sources we have available tells us isn't the case - again, with Jack's group being the exception.

The turians use their biotic cabals, per the codex, like so: "A turian Cabal is often deployed covertly as shock troops or saboteurs, or they're sent on long reconnaissance missions for the Hierarchy. In addition to advanced biotic training, all Cabal soldiers are highly skilled in small arms, explosives, infiltration tactics, and piloting."

As far as salarians go: "Salarian biotics are unusual and highly prized. The salarian military does not risk them in the front lines but instead uses them in intelligence services."

And with human biotics, we know biotic ability of sufficient strength is basically a free ticket to special operations units.  

Delta or NSW or whoever doesn't sprinkle a few guys here and there throughout conventional infantry platoons in order to mitigate loss.  While they sometimes operate as part of a mixed task force, they're very much their own unit that does its own thing, and its thing isn't standard infantry stand-up slugouts.  What we know seems to suggest that biotics operate on the same principle.  Kaidan's unit wouldn't be designated a special operations company if it wasn't primarily tasked with special operations, but was instead used to parcel out a few guys here and there to conventional units.  

[Khavos]

shodiswe wrote...

Biotics provides a tactical edge and additional options, but it's not an automatic I win button.

Unless a non-biotic tries to charge a strongbiotic in hand to hand combat. Then I would think the Biotic would win as long as the non-biotic fails to make physical contact.

This is one of those frustrating things about biotics; in terms of gameplay, you're absolutely right.  If you go by the novels or the comics, a non-biotic - even a group of them - have no real chance if within a biotic's effective range.  

[Han Shot First]

cap and gown wrote...

Combined arms is not the same as spread out willy, nilly. A Panzer division was a combined arms unit, but it also grouped the tanks into one division rather than spreading them out among all the infantry divisions like the French did at the start of the war. That is what gave a Pz division its punch.

I would think biotics would be treated the same way. A biotic unit would consist of many biotics, but also contain many non-biotics as well to support and protect the biotics.

A panzer division did not consist solely of tanks. In fact they were combined armed formations that included armor and mechanized infantry. At the start of Operation Barbossa the typical panzer division consisted of one armor regiment and two regiments of mechanized infantry.

Both the French and the Germans used a combined arms approach. What the French did wrong was using tanks solely as infantry support weapons.

[Han Shot First]

Khavos wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I'd have to disagree with that bolded bit.

The fact that they are rare makes it more likely that they'd be spread out amongst the military rather than deployed en masse. Deploy an entire company of biotics en masse for example, and what happens if that unit happens to be on the receiving end of an artillery bombardment or air strikes? And given that you have entire unit of biotics, its likely that they'd be given some extra attention by the enemy. Lets say a biotic company has the misfortune of being on the receiving end of air strikes that inflict 100 or so total casualties. Between wounded and killed you've now lost 100 biotics, all of whom are rare and difficult to replace and all whom represent a much more expensive resource than your average infantryman. Had biotics instead been spread out throughout your various infantry companies or battalions, you might have instead only lost a couple biotics with the rest of the casualties being standard infantrymen who are easier to replace.  

You're assuming they're used like conventional forces, which almost all of the sources we have available tells us isn't the case - again, with Jack's group being the exception.

The turians use their biotic cabals, per the codex, like so: "A turian Cabal is often deployed covertly as shock troops or saboteurs, or they're sent on long reconnaissance missions for the Hierarchy. In addition to advanced biotic training, all Cabal soldiers are highly skilled in small arms, explosives, infiltration tactics, and piloting."

As far as salarians go: "Salarian biotics are unusual and highly prized. The salarian military does not risk them in the front lines but instead uses them in intelligence services."

And with human biotics, we know biotic ability of sufficient strength is basically a free ticket to special operations units.  

Delta or NSW or whoever doesn't sprinkle a few guys here and there throughout conventional infantry platoons in order to mitigate loss.  While they sometimes operate as part of a mixed task force, they're very much their own unit that does its own thing, and its thing isn't standard infantry stand-up slugouts.  What we know seems to suggest that biotics operate on the same principle.  Kaidan's unit wouldn't be designated a special operations company if it wasn't primarily tasked with special operations, but was instead used to parcel out a few guys here and there to conventional units.  

Biotic capability automatically making one special operations seems a bit far-fetched, when a biotic soldier might not necessarily have what it takes to be special operations. Sure, he or she might be able to move things around with their mind...but that alone is going to make someone capable of being special operations. A biotic would be no more capable of passing the grueling indoctrination and training programs for special operations than any other soldier or Marine. Some would have what it takes but most wouldn't.

With that in mind biotics surely must be employed in both conventional and special operations roles. If biotics could only serve in a special operations capacity you'd automatically greatly reduce the number of biotics that military service could field, unless the standard training requirements were waived for biotic soldiers or Marines...in which case you're lowering the quality of your special operations forces. ME1 also supports this in my opinion, as there is no indication that Kaidan has a special operations background. His career path seems to be one that transitioned from infantry to special operations.

[Khavos]

Han Shot First wrote...

NE1 also supports this in my opinion, as there is no indication that Kaidan has a special operations background. His career path seems to be one that transitioned from infantry to special operations.

Sure, but that's because at the time of ME1, he'd specifically turned away from employing his biotics frequently due to the trauma of BAaT.  I think he says that specifically in conversations about it.

While you're certainly correct that not every biotic would be able to make it into special operations, the codex entry for human biotics states clearly that the Alliance military incentivizes and recruits them heavily for special operations.  

It's all kind of a moot point, though.  There are just too many differences in the way biotics are portrayed, both from game to game, and especially from background information/codex entries/comics/novels to the games.  A simple kinetic shield will largely nullify a biotic in ME2 and ME3, whereas the fluff tells us that a biotic of krogan battlemaster/asari commando/N7 caliber would wipe the floor with squads of shielded enemies.  

[Brainarius]

I've always wondered how the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) would handle biotic recruits. As Singapore was ground zero for eezo exposure, it probably has more biotics than most other countries. As Singapore probably still practices conscription in the 22nd century, all male biotics would be recruited.

[eyezonlyii]

I just want to know how sustainable a biotic population is. We know they come from eezo exposure, but the problem to me is the fact that the longer a species is around eezo, the more precautions they would take to minimize the risk of exposure, especially considering that exposure does not equal automatic biotic ability. in fact it's something like 1 in 100 that develop such capability, with the rest getting nasty tumors or outright dying.

Unless there are parents willingly exposing developing fetuses to eezo, the population should decline very rapidly throughout the years.