645 réponses à ce sujet

[AutumnWitch]

I was just thinking. Mages in DA really do represent a horrible, horrible risk to "humanity" (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Qunari, etc). And so if their existence REALLY was as dangerous as they say in DA the fact is, society would have instituted a policy of either killing them ALL or making them ALL tranquil as soon as it was discovered they had magic. This would have been deemed acceptable out of necessity despite moral concerns.

I would also suspect, in a Medieval/Dark Age mentality that exists in Thedas that most likely the bloodlines would soon come to an end because if indeed all Mages were killed or made tranquil the likelihood of them reproducing would be very low and eventually they would die off. And lets face, if we use the way humans act in real life as a model, they would certainly have a stigma about them so this would also help stop the bloodlines.

I would also argue because of this the Tevinter Imperium probably would have never existed. Especially if you keep in mind that in Thedas there seems to be (from what we have seen) a low ratio of Mages to non-mages. So as a "numbers game" and the instinctive urge to destroy what threatens us, the Imperium would have been unlikely.

People in general are very, very quick to kill off dangerous competitors. Just look at what we have done on Earth to wolves, tigers etc. There is even a widely supported theory in anthropology that way back in our ancestry there were several other humanoid species that arose about the same time as homosapians (Neanderthals for example) that we literally killed off because they were competition for the same resources and they were also a physical threat to us. And this all happened back in the Stone Age, centuries or millennia before the Medieval Age (about the Age that DA takes place in).

So it seems to me, that it's human nature to destroy something that threatens us. And from the rhetoric we get in DA and from Gaider himself, a huge majority of the population intensely fears and hates the Mages. So by all rights, all things being sort of equal, Mages should have disappeared centuries ago.

However they haven't and that's most likely because "magic" even given the dangerous nature of those who have it, must also provide something that makes it just that much too valuable to completely wipe out entirely.

So somewhere along the line, those with power have decided that although exterminating all Mages might be good on one hand, the benefit they get from Mages/Magic is just enough to keep it going. And indeed, an argument could be made that the Mage Circles are an attempt to control and limit Magic and at the same time minimizing its danger. I guess sort of like how many people IRL view nuclear energy. Its horribly, terrifyingly dangerous but if we regulate it and limit what we do with (as well as take as many safety precautions as possible) its worth keeping.

Now if we can accept that magic is a "necessary evil" in Thedas then how in the world do we regulate it so that things like the Mage-Templar war /Veal Tear don't continue to happen?

If theory, the Mage Circle model (and others) look good on paper but in reality people abuse power on both sides and there isn't anyway we can fix that problem. Any time we give that much power and control to one group of people over another, abuse will occur which will always lead to revolts and revolutions.

So is the ONLY solution to this, the actual complete extermination of Mages across the board? Our do we have to accept that there is always going to be abuse and danger on both sides and try to work to a solution that minimizes the problems?

Is there an actual way in Thedas for Mages to exist in the world while living a quality of life that is equivalent to those of non-mages, therefore minimizing the threat of revolution? Can people co-exist within an uneasy peace or is this just a pipe dream that can never happen?

Modifié par AutumnWitch, 08 février 2014 - 07:51 .

[Vestua]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Is there an actual way in Thedas for Mages to exist in the world while living a quality of life that is equivalent to those of non-mages, therefore minimizing the threat of revolution? Can people co-exist within an uneasy peace or is this just a pipe dream that can never happen?

Yep, either destroy the Fade somehow or find a way to exterminate all the demons there to prevent them from possesing mages.

[AutumnWitch]

Vestua wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

Is there an actual way in Thedas for Mages to exist in the world while living a quality of life that is equivalent to those of non-mages, therefore minimizing the threat of revolution? Can people co-exist within an uneasy peace or is this just a pipe dream that can never happen?

Yep, either destroy the Fade somehow or find a way to exterminate all the demons there to prevent them from possesing mages.

I tend to agree with this, but from a "cosmological" POV do we know for sure that demons don't provide a positive influence in the world that we just don't know about?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The only problem with the 'exterminate all mages' option is that it is literally near impossible to achieve. Magic is not a genetic trait, so people are always born with it even if for centuries earlier their families had no signs of any capacity in the field.

Also yum, Veal Tear.

[Iron Fist]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

The only problem with the 'exterminate all mages' option is that it is literally near impossible to achieve. Magic is not a genetic trait, so people are always born with it even if for centuries earlier their families had no signs of any capacity in the field.

Yeah, that's the problem. ANY human, elf, or qunari can potentially be born a mage. You'd have to destroy the entire planet to get rid of mages.

Modifié par MevenSelas, 08 février 2014 - 08:29 .

[kuro_sasori]

AutumnWitch wrote...

People in general are very, very quick to kill off dangerous competitors. Just look at what we have done on Earth to wolves, tigers etc. There is even a widely supported theory in anthropology that way back in our ancestry there were several other humanoid species that arose about the same time as homosapians (Neanderthals for example) that we literally killed off because they were competition for the same resources and they were also a physical threat to us. And this all happened back in the Stone Age, centuries or millennia before the Medieval Age (about the Age that DA takes place in).

So it seems to me, that it's human nature to destroy something that threatens us. And from the rhetoric we get in DA and from Gaider himself, a huge majority of the population intensely fears and hates the Mages. So by all rights, all things being sort of equal, Mages should have disappeared centuries ago.

However they haven't and that's most likely because "magic" even given the dangerous nature of those who have it, must also provide something that makes it just that much too valuable to completely wipe out entirely.

So somewhere along the line, those with power have decided that although exterminating all Mages might be good on one hand, the benefit they get from Mages/Magic is just enough to keep it going. And indeed, an argument could be made that the Mage Circles are an attempt to control and limit Magic and at the same time minimizing its danger. I guess sort of like how many people IRL view nuclear energy. Its horribly, terrifyingly dangerous but if we regulate it and limit what we do with (as well as take as many safety precautions as possible) its worth keeping.

Now if we can accept that magic is a "necessary evil" in Thedas then how in the world do we regulate it so that things like the Mage-Templar war /Veal Tear don't continue to happen?

If theory, the Mage Circle model (and others) look good on paper but in reality people abuse power on both sides and there isn't anyway we can fix that problem. Any time we give that much power and control to one group of people over another, abuse will occur which will always lead to revolts and revolutions.

So is the ONLY solution to this, the actual complete extermination of Mages across the board? Our do we have to accept that there is always going to be abuse and danger on both sides and try to work to a solution that minimizes the problems?

Is there an actual way in Thedas for Mages to exist in the world while living a quality of life that is equivalent to those of non-mages, therefore minimizing the threat of revolution? Can people co-exist within an uneasy peace or is this just a pipe dream that can never happen?

First of all, it is human nature to destroy things that we see as a threat. We do this regardless sometimes of the veracity of our claims, that is indeed what we do with many species out there; they are not a threat and yet we are driving them to extinction.

I do believe that just as in real life there is always an opportunity for compromise and many times it is ignorance that blinds us, hence we cannot see other alternatives. Lack of knowledge is a disease and the consequences are usually bad. Now speaking of the game, I do believe there has to be a middle point. I do not believe that killing all mages or making them tranquil is the solution since they would be the only ones affected by such actions. "Organized slaughter, we realize, does not settle a dispute; it merely silence an argument" right?

I guess only mutual understanding could clear the minds of those on both sides so they can come up with a better way to solve this issue. Perhaps just establishing schools where they could teach them how to properly use their magic without being eternally locked as they were in the circles, after all they are also living beings and they should have rights that could extend beyond a tower. Probably still using the phylactery system but giving them the chance to live a more regular life. I am a pacifist after all

[TheKomandorShepard]

MevenSelas wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

The only problem with the 'exterminate all mages' option is that it is literally near impossible to achieve. Magic is not a genetic trait, so people are always born with it even if for centuries earlier their families had no signs of any capacity in the field.

Yeah, that's the problem. ANY human, elf, or qunari can potentially be born a mage. You'd have to destroy the entire planet to get rid of mages.

Which doesn't change fact that new-bron mages can be killed than istead taking them to the circle and wasting resources on watching them instead hunting...

When it wouldn't kill every mage it would extremely reduce their numbers and threat they present.

Mages are in circles which is proved poor way to control mages only because bio needed conflict despite it would be easily solved on non-mages side as they have upper hand over mages simply by killing mages

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 février 2014 - 09:14 .

[The Baconer]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Which doesn't change fact that new-bron mages can be killed than istead taking them to the circle and wasting resources on watching them instead hunting... 

"New-born mages" aren't even a thing, unless you're flipping coins.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The Baconer wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Which doesn't change fact that new-bron mages can be killed than istead taking them to the circle and wasting resources on watching them instead hunting... 

"New-born mages" aren't even a thing, unless you're flipping coins.

There is reason why most mages end in circles because they are captured i doubt that many goes there with smile...
Most templars is concentrated on watching caputred mages when others try find another so their effectiveness in capturing will drastically jump up.Amother matter is also creating new laws against mages and add to major religion few sentences "mages are evil" use fear and hate that peoples have toward mages increase them and we have even bigger effectiveness as we will recive even more support from society...
 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 février 2014 - 09:24 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

kuroi_sasori wrote...
I do believe that just as in real life there is always an opportunity for compromise and many times it is ignorance that blinds us, hence we cannot see other alternatives. Lack of knowledge is a disease and the consequences are usually bad. Now speaking of the game, I do believe there has to be a middle point. I do not believe that killing all mages or making them tranquil is the solution since they would be the only ones affected by such actions. "Organized slaughter, we realize, does not settle a dispute; it merely silence an argument" right?

I guess only mutual understanding could clear the minds of those on both sides so they can come up with a better way to solve this issue. Perhaps just establishing schools where they could teach them how to properly use their magic without being eternally locked as they were in the circles, after all they are also living beings and they should have rights that could extend beyond a tower. Probably still using the phylactery system but giving them the chance to live a more regular life. I am a pacifist after all

I hope so as well. There is a middle ground that will benefit both sides. They just need to find it. 

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 08 février 2014 - 09:31 .

[The Baconer]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
There is reason why most mages end in circles because they are captured i doubt that many goes there with smile...
Most templars is concentrated on watching caputred mages when others try find another so their effectiveness in capturing will drastically jump up.Amother matter is also creating new laws against mages and add to major religion few sentences "mages are evil" use fear and hate that peoples have toward mages increase them and we have even bigger effectiveness as we will recive even more support from society...

...What? What does any of that have to do with mage babies? 

[TheKomandorShepard]

The Baconer wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
There is reason why most mages end in circles because they are captured i doubt that many goes there with smile...
Most templars is concentrated on watching caputred mages when others try find another so their effectiveness in capturing will drastically jump up.Amother matter is also creating new laws against mages and add to major religion few sentences "mages are evil" use fear and hate that peoples have toward mages increase them and we have even bigger effectiveness as we will recive even more support from society...

...What? What does any of that have to do with mage babies? 

oh gosh and that we will kill them sooner or later after we discover their power and judging by that most is detected and taken to the circles it shouldn't be hard...

[Laughing_Man]

 A few things:

A. Mages ARE humanity, every family has the potential to have magical children. Would you be so quick to support the death of your child?

B. Killing mages does not mean killing alot of mages once and that's it, it also means killing every new magical child that will be born. The psychopath above me may have no problem with killing children, but most people do.

C. There is a heavy price to magical extermination, both direct and indirect.

Direct: The spilling of so much magical blood can't be healthy to the state of the world. You chose wholsale slaughter? Be ready for many areas haunted by ghosts spirits and who knows what else, even *more* veil tears, and additional unknown-yet magical dangers.

There is also the fact that you push magicals with their back against the wall, an excellent way to make them do something truly desperate, something that may not save them from death but will leave only few of their fanatical adversaries alive to rule bones and ashes.

Indirect: Tell me, a human wielding a sword or a bow, or even a group of such humans, send them against a T-Rex, who do you think is going to win? (my money is on the T-Rex)

Now give the T-Rex wings, fire-breath, and more intelligence, you may also call it a dragon.Your most sophisticated weapon against something like this are horribly inaccurate ancient artilery. No magic to help you since well, you know.

And it's not just dragons, killing the only humans able to touch and manipulate magic, leaves monsters and other magical threats the undisputed masters of magic, and your race have no real way to defend against it.
You just Fu**ed yourself.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 08 février 2014 - 09:49 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

TheRedVipress wrote...

 A few things:

A. Mages ARE humanity, every family has the potential to have magical children.Would you be so quick to support the death of your child?

B. Killing mages does not mean killing alot of mages once and that's it, it also means killing every new magical child that will be born. The psychopath above me may have no problem with killing children, but most people do.

C. There is a heavy price to magical extermination, both direct and in direct.

Direct: The spilling of so much magical blood can't be healthy to the state of the world.You chose wholsale slaughter? Be ready for many areas haunted by ghosts spirits and who knows what else, even *more* veil tears, and additional unknown-yet magical dangers.

There is also the fact that you push magicals with their back against the wall, an excellent way to make them do something truly desperate, something that may not save them from death but will leave only few of their fanatical adversaries alive to rule bones an ashes.

Indirect: Tell me, a human weilding a sword or a bow, or even a group of such humans, send them against a T-Rex, who do you think is going to win? (my money is on the T-Rex)

Now give the T-Rex wings, fire-breath, and more intelligence, you may also call it a dragon.Your most sophisticated weapon against something like this are horribly inaccurate ancient artilery.No magic to help you since well, you know.

And it's not just dragons, killing the only humans able to touch and manipulate magic, leaves monsters and other magical threats the undisputed masters of magic, and your race have no real way to defend against it. You just Fu**ed yourself.

1.Nope if my children would kill me ad burn my city i wouldn't have problem
2.Ehh not that genocide and infanticide are absent in thedas elves or even if you kill connor guards tell you that you did good... im not psychopath just practical besides many in thedas hate mages so they wouldn't have problem with it as long they don't have kill anyone.
3.Not rly and if you want talk about grey warden few mages is all we need...
4.And after we kill current mages we won't gather them in one same place at same time and we have wars so veil argument is ass pull and bull.
5.Bull crap pentaghasts were hunting dragons successfully and they weren't mages.
Other bigger problems are abomnations and mages are needed for one...

 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 février 2014 - 09:56 .

[kuro_sasori]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

1.Nope if my children would kill me ad burn my city i wouldn't have problem
2.Ehh not that genocide and infanticide are absent in thedas elves or even if you kill connor guards tell you that you did good... im not psychopath just practical besides many in thedas hate mages so they wouldn't have problem with it as long they don't have kill anyone.
3.Not rly and if you want talk about grey warden few mages is all we need...
4.And after we kill current mages we won't gather them in one same place at same time and we have wars so veil argument is ass pull and bull.
5.Bull crap pentaghasts were hunting dragons successfully and they weren't mages.
Other bigger problems are abomnations and mages are needed for one...

 

Wonder if he is saying this just to pissed mage supporters off
I do not know... your practicality strikes more like laziness or unwillingness to find a solution. I do not agree on the killing of people because they are different, which many like you would rather call monsters probably, of course that is speculation on my behalf. Anyway, "the direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations," I tend to agree with this, then again is just my opinion.

[kuro_sasori]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I hope so as well. There is a middle ground that will benefit both sides. They just need to find it. 

Happy to see I am not the only one who thinks that way!

[Potato Cat]

Vestua wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

Is there an actual way in Thedas for Mages to exist in the world while living a quality of life that is equivalent to those of non-mages, therefore minimizing the threat of revolution? Can people co-exist within an uneasy peace or is this just a pipe dream that can never happen?

Yep, either destroy the Fade somehow or find a way to exterminate all the demons there to prevent them from possesing mages.

Yeah this is pretty much the only way to get me to reevaluate my stance on mages. Right now I'm more or less pro-less harsh treatment of Saarebas, (since everything they do is to prevent possession), or pro-Circle with less dickish Templars. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

kuroi_sasori wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

1.Nope if my children would kill me ad burn my city i wouldn't have problem
2.Ehh not that genocide and infanticide are absent in thedas elves or even if you kill connor guards tell you that you did good... im not psychopath just practical besides many in thedas hate mages so they wouldn't have problem with it as long they don't have kill anyone.
3.Not rly and if you want talk about grey warden few mages is all we need...
4.And after we kill current mages we won't gather them in one same place at same time and we have wars so veil argument is ass pull and bull.
5.Bull crap pentaghasts were hunting dragons successfully and they weren't mages.
Other bigger problems are abomnations and mages are needed for one...

 

Wonder if he is saying this just to pissed mage supporters off
I do not know... your practicality strikes more like laziness or unwillingness to find a solution. I do not agree on the killing of people because they are different, which many like you would rather call monsters probably, of course that is speculation on my behalf. Anyway, "the direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations," I tend to agree with this, then again is just my opinion.

Yes that makes some pro-mages angry despite that i mostly say facts or my opinion but thats not my point simple i hold such view on that matter. Another matter i don't want kill or hate peoples because they are different i don't care about such things as race , religion (as long is isn't negative toward me) or sexuality ,mages are simple dangerous for me and entire world around that is problem they are huge danger. There is many solutions on that problem others simple aren't effective so without ass pull from devs said that solves abomnation problem only effective way to protect world from mages is remove them for good...

kuroi_sasori wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I hope so as well. There is a middle ground that will benefit both sides. They just need to find it. 

Happy to see I am not the only one who thinks that way!

just love when peoples think that middle ground means best stolution or even effective middle ground were circles and well...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 février 2014 - 10:17 .

[kuro_sasori]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes that makes some pro-mages angry despite that i mostly say facts or my opinion but thats not my point simple i hold such view on that matter. Another matter i don't want kill or hate peoples because they are different i don't care about such things as race , religion (as long is isn't negative toward me) or sexuality ,mages are simple dangerous for me and entire world around that is problem they are huge danger. There is many solutions on that problem others simple aren't effective so without ass pull from devs said that solves abomnation problem only effective way to protect world from mages is remove them for good...

just love when peoples think that middle ground means best stolution or even effective middle ground were circles and well...

Well, it seems like your perspective is truly narrow, like a racing horse who can only see what is in front of it and nothing else. So you say mages are dangerous "for me" and because they are dangerous for you, they have to be dangerous for everyone else? Do you know what hasty generalization is? You say there are other solutions, but not as effective, if they have not been tried, how could you know they are not effective? It seems to me that you are just taking the fastest way out of the "problem" and you denied yourself the possibility of finding what perhaps could be a better solutions without the bloodshed. Middle ground might not always seem like the best solution but at least it means people is listening and not only taking the first option presented to them.

[Maria Caliban]

We don't know to what extent being a mage is influenced by heredity. It could be 'genetic' in Thedas.

However, even if it were, the idea that you can kill off everyone with the 'mage gene' is doubtful. If it's a recessive gene combination, 90% of the people in Thedas could carry it and it would only express itself in 1% of the population.

That's the reason lethal hereditary diseases (haemophilia, for example) continue to exit. Lots of people have the one of the gene for haemophilia but it's recessive and few people have exactly the right combination of genes.

[Banxey]

Considering it has taken Thedosians this long to study the effects of tranquility, and explore the possibility that you could sever a mage's connection to the fade without removing their soul (for lack of a better term), I'd say killing them all is a little premature.

Not that I would have all mages surrender their magic with the looming threat of Qunari, Tevinter, blights, harvesters, body hopping creatures like Corypheus and Flemeth, and veil tears. But to each their own, I guess.

[metatheurgist]

The reason there's this artificially bleak situation is because Biowriters have gone the tired old x-men everyone (no exceptions) hates (mutants) mages angle. A completely unbelievable and trite contrivance.

People will accept dangerous things if there is a perceived benefit. While mages are can be possessed or just abuse their power there are also obvious benefits. People accept alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, atomic power, firearms. We drive cars designed to go faster than any posted speed limit. In my part of the world we're culling sharks even though they kill less people than drunks, but no one's calling for a cull on drunks.

A better solution to the mage/Templar issue would be for them to take a relationship similar to Aes Sedai and their Warders. Mages would be allowed out in the world but they would be watched and protected by a Templar. The Templars job would be to protect the mage from physical harm and discrimination but also to make sure the mage doesn't abuse their power and to take action in case of possession. There's plenty of room for complicated stories to rise out of that situation that isn't just Templar vs mages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

kuroi_sasori wrote...


Well, it seems like your perspective is truly narrow, like a racing horse who can only see what is in front of it and nothing else. So you say mages are dangerous "for me" and because they are dangerous for you, they have to be dangerous for everyone else? Do you know what hasty generalization is? You say there are other solutions, but not as effective, if they have not been tried, how could you know they are not effective? It seems to me that you are just taking the fastest way out of the "problem" and you denied yourself the possibility of finding what perhaps could be a better solutions without the bloodshed. Middle ground might not always seem like the best solution but at least it means people is listening and not only taking the first option presented to them.

Mages aren't just dangerus for me mages are dangerous for entire world just going by that they also dangerous for me.Now lets me explain why i know because mages can't be controlled why because mage can become abomnation at any moment of their life so they are ticking bombs and now we have abomnation you can't enforce them to follow your law because:
1)They are hostile
2)They are too powerful and strong to handle by any law enforcer
Mages and abomnations proved that they can and they brought and bring many mostly most harming disasters in thedas bum yes. 
Now we have question if small minority is worth so many victims and risk of end of the world i would say without involving morality yes even just for my safety...

So simple answer mages can't be controled as proven and abomnations always will exist unless you will kill mages... 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

@Op, Such savagery, cruelty and bigotry! lol
Actually they can be useful. Putting them in some kind of Zoo or Circus in the middle of a volcano or island while people seeing them from a far distance might be amusing!

[Wulfram]

You shouldn't assume a Normals vs Mages attitude is inherently the norm. Rivalry between tribes and peoples is likely to be as or more pervasive.

Getting rid of your mages gives you a major military disadvantage with those who haven't. Maybe some people did think killing their mages ASAP was a good idea, and they were probably some of Tevinter's easiest conquests.

And of course, there are the Darkspawn.