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[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Fiona doesn't represent the order as a whole. She represents a single faternity, and did a power grab. If otto became knight commander, I still wouldn't think all mages were him or that he represented all templars.

Whenever I read Otto, I think the nice, blind Templar investigating the Alienage in Origins.

He was quite pleasant wasn't he?

Yeah. I was sad when he died. The Templars needed more people like him.

Agreed.

Likely for differing reasons but agreed.

Why? What are your reasons? I think we have the same.

[Master Warder Z_]

Silfren wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
How do you know the siege began? Unless if they were holding the Chantry Personal hostage it would make sense to boot them out before Negoiations began given that when you are in an attic and you have people below capable of getting you it tends to end poorly.

We can safely assume that given it lasted for near on a month that the mages did indeed kick every one else out or if they did not made them incapable of breaching the door to their location.

And considering the Divine's reaction it seems all that was standing between that place and being razed was it being a holy site.

We will simply have to agree to disagree upon our interpretations of events i suppose.

You need to read that codex again, because you have it completely wrong.  There WAS. NO. siege.  You're flat out wrong on this.

I have read it priorly and even reread it today for this very debate; I assure you my understanding of it is current.

Just not very accurate.  NOTHING in that codex suggests that the mages had besieged the place or were acting violent in any way.  The tone, and the events as described, all point toward a peaceful mage protest and an irrational Divine. 

Just from that perspective; Again Codexes are from an Invidual's perspective and Petrine's perspective is more subject to bias then most. Considering that this came from a circle approved tome of history the scholar is commenting on further suggest historical bias and considering the seperation of historical fact from historical fiction i do believe altering perspectives are completely warrented in the situation.

Again Bioware has stated repeatedly that the Codexes due to the inviduality of their author are not to be taken as "God Canon"  Or in some cases are completely seperate from what actually occured.

Point being if you disagree with me that is your right but labeling my perspective wrong merely for disagreeing with it is something i do not support.

I'm well aware of the bias thing with the Codices.  What I will ALSO note is that Sister Petrine is an agent OF the Chantry, and when you look at her writings, you see several things that apply here: one, that there is a clear attempt at objectivity in her portrayal of various events, but even so you can see a pro-Chantry bias.  Given that she's a Chantry sympathizer and yet is willing to criticize the Divine of the Chantry of that period, that counts for something.

I'm sorry, Circle approved tome of history?  Are you seriously suggesting that the Circle, and not the Chantry, controls what writings make it into the Circle?  LMAO.  The bias here works in support of the Chantry, NOT the Circle! 

If this had been a violent event, or the mages had had some kind of serious leverage with which to blackmail the Chantry, you can be sure that that would have been mentioned in the story. It's patently absurd to think that such a thing would not have been mentioned.  True, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but in this particular case, the lack of a mention of any violence or implied violence CAN and WOULD be taken by any credible scholar as an indication that no such thing had been present in the dispute.  The fact that the Divine herself wanted to declare an Exalted March but her templars discouraged it also points to this.  It doesn't look at all like the only thing preventing one was the "holiness" of the location--the Divine was the one ordering it, and her templars were against it.  That scenario alone should tell you that it's much more likely that there simply was no justifiable cause for a March.  It's just plain stupid to think that the Divine would want to raze a church to the ground but the templars would be against it on account of it being a holy site.  I mean, do you seriously think that the Templars would object to razing the place OVER THE DIVINE'S OWN WISHES if the mages had used or threatened *violence*?

Yep, I'm quite comfortable in saying your interpretation is so ridiculously off-base from anything said in the codex that it's easily dismissed as wrong.

Your perspective, Your Agrument; Not mine own and this will be the final defense of my own.

Where did you gather that the Chantry had overt control of the tomes possesed by the Circles? If so do you truely think that they would leave texts around about Blood Magic? From which an actual blood mage rose; clearly if they had complete control over the written tomes of the circle in question those volumes would have never been present to begin with not merely taken by the First Enchanter Prior to the start of the events of the game.

Bias from a tome written about an event seven centuries prior to its entry into DA, Point is that while Petrine can indeed be noted as a Chantry Scholar that doesn't make it implausible; Furthermore Accredited Scholar or no Taken this far from the event and from ONE tome of which this very codex is an exert from i would hardly paint as a conclusive and final page on the event. Furthermore the Templars are choosen for religious zeal and adherence; Obviously they would object to the destruction of central location of the worship in Thedas. Espeically considering that combating mages would likely result in its destruction.

When it comes to the Grand Icon and central location of their faith? I doubt the Templars would risk Violence for the sake of it; Not the Mages thus its a simple leap from there to conclude that even had the Mages threatened, commited or otherwise promised retribution for actions taken against them it wouldn't be ridicious to assume that the Divine's ordering of and the Templar's objections to the launching of the assault was taken out of context given the Codex it self is a mere exerpt from as i said before a circle history book.

So we are to gather from this one passage remarking on the event as if it was entirity that; That was all that took place? As you said yourself Evidence of Absence is not Absence of Evidence and considering all the "Evidence" is a singular passage that briefly speaks of the incident in little detail it could hardly be counted as Evidence little as definitive proof of there being no violence, no seizure and no incident beyond them merely refusing to leave the loft.

Ultimately when it comes down to it; it is as i said before it is the situation that has interested me, even more then what the mages had done wrong and the situation has in the more thought applied to far more muddled and confusing then i initially thought given that if you apply even a scant amount of thought there could be no prolonged negoiations, no punishments given unless if leverage was held.

Peaceful protest isn't the hallmark of the Ancient Era after all.

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Fiona doesn't represent the order as a whole. She represents a single faternity, and did a power grab. If otto became knight commander, I still wouldn't think all mages were him or that he represented all templars.

Whenever I read Otto, I think the nice, blind Templar investigating the Alienage in Origins.

He was quite pleasant wasn't he?

Yeah. I was sad when he died. The Templars needed more people like him.

Agreed.

Likely for differing reasons but agreed.

Why? What are your reasons? I think we have the same.

He continued to serve regardless of personal injury even in a field capacity namely i am a believer of "Exprience is the best teacher" Namely even in limited capacity such as he was capable of aiding the Common people against the threat of Magic which he ultimately did.

Apart from that?

I think life long dedication to the order is a good thing and obviously when you have done it to the extent he has, it has become a life long dedication; Not simply a passing whim.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...

He continued to serve regardless of personal injury even in a field capacity namely i am a believer of "Exprience is the best teacher" Namely even in limited capacity such as he was capable of aiding the Common people against the threat of Magic which he ultimately did.

Apart from that?

I think life long dedication to the order is a good thing and obviously when you have done it to the extent he has, it has become a life long dedication; Not simply a passing whim.

Those were the same reasons I had. As well as him being compassionate wheras plenty of guards/Templars have shown to detatch themselves from their charges, thus destroying a connection needed to truly serve others well. 

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 14 février 2014 - 02:16 .

[The Baconer]

Master Warder Z wrote...

If i recall correctly from my most recent reading of the novel; Adrian the actual murderer was the one who raised the initial stink over that and proceded to push towards violence.

I mean even a cursory investigation by the Templars would have led them to conclude Rhys wasn't the murderer but Finoa and her toady needed a scapegoat to pick their fight and they got it.

That's the gist of it, pretty much. Though I doubt Rhys would have been spared execution. Perhaps.

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

He continued to serve regardless of personal injury even in a field capacity namely i am a believer of "Exprience is the best teacher" Namely even in limited capacity such as he was capable of aiding the Common people against the threat of Magic which he ultimately did.

Apart from that?

I think life long dedication to the order is a good thing and obviously when you have done it to the extent he has, it has become a life long dedication; Not simply a passing whim.

Those were the same reasons I had. As well as him being compassionate wheras plenty of guards/Templars have shown to detatch themselves from their charges, thus destroying a connection needed to truly serve others well. 

I didn't include compassion as one of his virtues due to my own perception of the trait.

I don't view it as a good thing in most cases but that's just me.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

He continued to serve regardless of personal injury even in a field capacity namely i am a believer of "Exprience is the best teacher" Namely even in limited capacity such as he was capable of aiding the Common people against the threat of Magic which he ultimately did.

Apart from that?

I think life long dedication to the order is a good thing and obviously when you have done it to the extent he has, it has become a life long dedication; Not simply a passing whim.

Those were the same reasons I had. As well as him being compassionate wheras plenty of guards/Templars have shown to detatch themselves from their charges, thus destroying a connection needed to truly serve others well. 

I didn't include compassion as one of his virtues due to my own perception of the trait.

I don't view it as a good thing in most cases but that's just me.

Having a prsonal connection, especially a positive one, means that both the guard and the charge will have a more positive relationship. Not having that resorts to both sides viewing the other with resentment for various reasons, leading to problems that the mages and Templars for example were having before breaking away from each other in war.

[dragonflight288]

 We are still going on and on about this?  

Fine, let's settle this in the most simple way possible. A close examination of the Codex itself, its reliability, and what we know of the other events going on in that time period. 

History of the Circle

It is a truth universally acknowledged that nothing is more successful at inspiring a person to mischief as being told not to do something. Unfortunately, the Chantry of the Divine Age had some trouble with obvious truths. Although it did not outlaw magic-quite the contrary, as the Chantry relied upon magic to kindle the eternal flame which burns in every brazier in every chantry-it relegated mages to lighting candles and lamps. Perhaps occasional dusting of rafters and eaves.

So in essence, mages were assigned to be nothing more than less-than-glorified janitors. Yeah, no one would get bored of that job after long periods of time, especially if it's the only job they are seen as qualified as doing by virtue of being what they are. 

I will give my readers a moment to contemplate how well such a role satisfied the mages of the time.It surprised absolutely no one when the mages of Val Royeaux, in protest, snuffed the sacred flames of the cathedral and barricaded themselves inside the choir loft. No one, that is, but Divine Ambrosia II, who was outraged and attempted to order an Exalted March upon her own cathedral. Even her most devout Templars discouraged that idea. For 21 days, the fires remained unlit while negotiations were conducted, legend tells us, by shouting back and forth from the loft.

Okay. Let's see here....threats of violence? Only from the Divine. Nothing mentioned about the mages. Let's also see, any mention of them storming in? Nope. They already worked there as janitors. They had access to the loft. No violence needed to take it, and no hostages taken beyond fires going unlit for 21 days. 

I don't see anything malevolent or malicious here save for the Divine being a tad blood-thirsty and her templars had to talk her down as they didn't see the need for violence or a siege.

The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.[/i]

So, the source of the Codex is Sister Petrine, a Chantry Archivist who seeks out the truth, and is annoyed that her beliefs are considered heretical by many in the Chantry as she actively discredits their relics, and the mages cheerfully went into exile to the Circle System, where they could freely study and practice magic and be governed by a council of their own magi while being under the watch of the templars, and this is the first time in history that mages and non-mages were separated in society. 

There are no signs of an angry mob of mages. No talks of blood magic or abominations. Just shouted negoitations from the loft to the floor. The only talk of violence comes from a Divine who was pretty much upset that things weren't going her way. 

I don't see anything in the codex whatsoever that indicates that the mages were doing anything worthy of violence.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 14 février 2014 - 03:49 .

[Uccio]

Master Warder Z wrote...


No they just went out to purchase living people like live stock before draining their wrists dry of blood so they could form a 4 meter dense fireball instead of a 3 meter dense one for "War Magic" Class.

Seriously if i hear another person harping on the Golden Age of the Imperium for anything but what it was (A Narcasitic, Self Indulgent Binge that resulted in Men so Arrogant they thought they could be living dieties) I will just lose all desire even point out the society they defend is so warped and corrupted it isn't worth defending.

They don't even have the defense of being a Ulititarian society even ._. Self Interest is weclomed in the Imperium which just makes it worse, Slavery when done for the greater good is diffrent then Slavery done for personal gain. Both acts are morally horrofic but at least one has the decency of putting the slaves to use in civic works and get more use out of them then a portable blood bank.

Thats assuming everything chantry writes is the stone cold truth. Chantry has every reason to paint Tevinter as "teh evil!1" empire since chantry is a direct opposition to Tevinter. So far we are not given much Tevinter side of the story, only religious zealots who are part of the Andrastian cult have written about Tevinter and its rather obvious which side they are tilted. Truth is that Tevinter once spammed across Thedas and did marvelous things, build huge building complex such as the imperial road, lake callenhad circle etc. brought civilization to all corners of the continent.
I´m still vaiting to hear the other side of the story.

Modifié par Ukki, 14 février 2014 - 12:26 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ukki wrote...

I´m still vaiting to hear the other side of the story.

You have. Caladrius, Decimus, and whatever that magister who kidnapped Maric's name was. And then there's the way they're described in WoT, which outright states that even the most morally upright Tevinters know a little bit of blood magic and gives a letter by a woman who's basically everything the Tevinters are described as by the Chantry. We also saw Maevaris, but her actions don't change the fact that there's demonstratably at least some truth to the propaganda.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 février 2014 - 08:32 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...

Really?  Because what I took from that passage was that Fiona recognized that the Chanty was NEVER going to "Deal with them and ensure the Circles work as they are supposed to."  The entire reason that Fiona pushed for dissolution was BECAUSE of the abuses never, ever being addressed and rectified. 

The conclave was called for mages to propose improvements/changes and voice their grievances.

How is that "abuses are never adressed"?

The Divine flat out said "Speak to me. I'm listening" and Fiona was like "WAAAAHGH! FRAK THE SYSTEM! IT NO WORK! HULK SMASH!"

[Hellion Rex]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Voting by faternity doesn't sound very representative to me. What if everyone except the representative didn't agree with seperating fromt he circle?

No, it doesn't. But I believe that in part, each fraternity voted within themselves to decide how their respective group would cast their lot, and then each fraternity leader cast a vote representative of their fraternities choice.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]LDS Darth Revan wrote...

[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...
[/quote] Those were the same reasons I had. As well as him being compassionate wheras plenty of guards/Templars have shown to detatch themselves from their charges, thus destroying a connection needed to truly serve others well. 
[/quote]

I didn't include compassion as one of his virtues due to my own perception of the trait.

I don't view it as a good thing in most cases but that's just me.

[/quote]
Having a prsonal connection, especially a positive one, means that both the guard and the charge will have a more positive relationship. Not having that resorts to both sides viewing the other with resentment for various reasons, leading to problems that the mages and Templars for example were having before breaking away from each other in war.
[/quote]

A personal connection may be a good or a bad thing.
It's a double-edged balde, especially in some vocations.
A templar that is too friendly with his charge may hesitate in his duty or make bad decisions.
Furthermore, given that mages fall prey to possesion and dabble in blood magic, when a temaplr gets to know mages too well, it drains him emotionally to have to fight/kill/punish them.

Emotion distance is a defense mechanism, and sometimes necessary to do soem jobs right.
It's not evil. It just is.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A personal connection may be a good or a bad thing.
It's a double-edged balde, especially in some vocations.
A templar that is too friendly with his charge may hesitate in his duty or make bad decisions.
Furthermore, given that mages fall prey to possesion and dabble in blood magic, when a temaplr gets to know mages too well, it drains him emotionally to have to fight/kill/punish them.

Emotion distance is a defense mechanism, and sometimes necessary to do soem jobs right.
It's not evil. It just is.

While valid points, going too far in the other direction is just as bad. Having no personal connection makes the Templar see the mage as nothing more than a number or object, one devoid of rights. This detachment is what leads to the Templar abusing their position which we have seen.

It's a balancing act between being too attached or too detached, but one that is important to have for a system to function properly.

[Dean_the_Young]

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

There is a difference between a man commiting a crime and a group of people activelly working as a whole to reach results favorable to them in complete disregard of established treaties signed by their previous leaders.

And are people of a future generation required to abide by the decisions of their forebears from a thousand years prior, no matter what?  

Sorry, but I don't see the problem.  If Generation A signed a treaty, but Generation Z thinks either that the treaty sets down unfair conditions, or else it simply is impractical to the point of being useless...or they simply don't feel that they should be beholden to something that they never agreed to, then...why should they not be allowed to declare it void?

If they want to continue enjoying concessions given to them by the compact, for one thing, it's hard to keep claiming a right to them when you declare all previous agreements void.

On the other hand, if you have expectations of maintaining elements of the prior status quo (such as, for example, an organized institution with significant external subsidies and various guarantees including infrastructure, supplies, military protection, and political neutrality), then reform rather than revolution should be your goal. Especially if the revolutionaries in question don't really have an idea of how things will work in the after, but just kind of hope it will all be better and and things won't get worse instead.


Of course, there's also the point that if compacts with you can't be expected to be honored going into the future, there's not much point in making a long-term compact with you and making long term concessions would be actively detrimental. Any deal with you should only be short-term only, and long-term strategies should focus on making you as impotent as possible lest more people like you not feel by any prior agreements.

Of course, that means even the Circle was a mistake, since it served as an institution that allowed Mages to organize and develop means and knowledge to enable resistance. Future mages should, if we take you seriously, be kept in a pre-Circle system of relative magical ignorance, political impotence, and with minimal autonomy conceeded at all.

Mages being represented by an all? Mages being negotiated with at all to make an enduring system? Why should anyone trust what you would promise them?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 février 2014 - 01:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Fiona doesn't represent the order as a whole. She represents a single faternity, and did a power grab.

Fiona is the Grand Enchanter and thus she represents the mages as a whole. Not to mention that her plan had the approval of the majority of said mages.

Being voted into it after a bunch of mages had to flee for their lives by said fleeing mages doesn't really sound like a legitimate vote to me. And that assumes every mage of every circle had completle consensus and were present to vote for her, and not just the ones from the white spire or whatever it's called.

By the time they had the final vote at Andoral's Reach, all possible mages had been recalled. If they weren't at Andoral, they had either been killed or gone into hiding. It all came down to Rhys. I believe it said that based on the size of the Aequitarians, whichever way he had voted would have swayed the outcome.

I really don't believe that/have a hard time actually buying one vote being able to make any sort of difference if there were hundreds of mages voting.

They were voting by fraternity, and Aequitarian was the largest by a considerable margin.

Voting by faternity doesn't sound very representative to me. What if everyone except the representative didn't agree with seperating fromt he circle?

Then they would select a different representative. Same with any other non-direct democracy.

Granted, the revolutionaries did arrange it so that the topic the mages thought they were going to do wasn't the one they ended up doing.

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ukki wrote...

I´m still vaiting to hear the other side of the story.

You have. Caladrius, Decimus, and whatever that magister who kidnapped Maric's name was. And then there's the way they're described in WoT, which outright states that even the most morally upright Tevinters know a little bit of blood magic and gives a letter by a woman who's basically everything the Tevinters are described as by the Chantry. We also saw Maevaris, but her actions don't change the fact that there's demonstratably at least some truth to the propaganda.

The thing is that a society doesn't have to be 100% morally righteous in order to not be 100% morally evil.  I'm not saying that Tevinter is an awesome places, Disney World really, and it's only been vilified by the Chantry.  I AM saying that it's quite possible that Tevinter isn't quite so "all blood magic, all the time."

We know that both Wynne and Feynriel have been there.  And neither of them gave any indication that they thought it was a complete Hellscape. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ukki wrote...

I´m still vaiting to hear the other side of the story.

You have. Caladrius, Decimus, and whatever that magister who kidnapped Maric's name was. And then there's the way they're described in WoT, which outright states that even the most morally upright Tevinters know a little bit of blood magic and gives a letter by a woman who's basically everything the Tevinters are described as by the Chantry. We also saw Maevaris, but her actions don't change the fact that there's demonstratably at least some truth to the propaganda.

The thing is that a society doesn't have to be 100% morally righteous in order to not be 100% morally evil.  I'm not saying that Tevinter is an awesome places, Disney World really, and it's only been vilified by the Chantry.  I AM saying that it's quite possible that Tevinter isn't quite so "all blood magic, all the time."

We know that both Wynne and Feynriel have been there.  And neither of them gave any indication that they thought it was a complete Hellscape. 

Complete hellscape, no. But I remember Feynriel noting that he suddenly understands the Templars POV.

I'm not saying the society is 100% evil. We've seen enough to know that's not the case. I'm just noting we've seen enough to know that there's some serious flaws in the society, and that the Chantry is pretty much hitting the nail on the head as far as those flaws go for all that they're missing the virtues. (Which is basically the same as you're saying, really.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 février 2014 - 07:13 .

[The Baconer]

Ukki wrote...

Truth is that Tevinter once spammed across Thedas and did marvelous things, build huge building complex such as the imperial road, lake callenhad circle etc. brought civilization to all corners of the continent.

The Circle tower at Lake Calenhad wasn't actually built by the Imperium.

[LobselVith8]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The thing is that a society doesn't have to be 100% morally righteous in order to not be 100% morally evil.  I'm not saying that Tevinter is an awesome places, Disney World really, and it's only been vilified by the Chantry.  I AM saying that it's quite possible that Tevinter isn't quite so "all blood magic, all the time."

We know that both Wynne and Feynriel have been there.  And neither of them gave any indication that they thought it was a complete Hellscape. 

Complete hellscape, no. But I remember Feynriel noting that he suddenly understands the Templars POV.

Feynriel addressed in his letter that he sometimes understands the templars; Tevinter is also the only society where the young mage could understand and master his powers, he uses those abilities to rescue a young woman, Orlanna, from being raped by the bandits who kidnapped her.

Also, in his letter, Feynriel thanks the Champion of Kirkwall because he owes the protagonist "his life and his future", so it goes back to Silfren's point that there's more to Tevinter than horrible people like Danarius and vile mages who are abusing blood magic.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'm not saying the society is 100% evil. We've seen enough to know that's not the case. I'm just noting we've seen enough to know that there's some serious flaws in the society, and that the Chantry is pretty much hitting the nail on the head as far as those flaws go for all that they're missing the virtues. (Which is basically the same as you're saying, really.) 

While the Andrastian kingdoms, and the Chantry of Andraste, have their own share of horrible flaws, particularly when it comes to the issues of mages and magic.

[Dean_the_Young]

And...?

You framed that as some sort of objection or counter, but there was no contradiction with what he said.

[Uccio]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ukki wrote...

I´m still vaiting to hear the other side of the story.

You have. Caladrius, Decimus, and whatever that magister who kidnapped Maric's name was. And then there's the way they're described in WoT, which outright states that even the most morally upright Tevinters know a little bit of blood magic and gives a letter by a woman who's basically everything the Tevinters are described as by the Chantry. We also saw Maevaris, but her actions don't change the fact that there's demonstratably at least some truth to the propaganda.

The thing is that a society doesn't have to be 100% morally righteous in order to not be 100% morally evil.  I'm not saying that Tevinter is an awesome places, Disney World really, and it's only been vilified by the Chantry.  I AM saying that it's quite possible that Tevinter isn't quite so "all blood magic, all the time."

We know that both Wynne and Feynriel have been there.  And neither of them gave any indication that they thought it was a complete Hellscape. 

Complete hellscape, no. But I remember Feynriel noting that he suddenly understands the Templars POV.

I'm not saying the society is 100% evil. We've seen enough to know that's not the case. I'm just noting we've seen enough to know that there's some serious flaws in the society, and that the Chantry is pretty much hitting the nail on the head as far as those flaws go for all that they're missing the virtues. (Which is basically the same as you're saying, really.)

Rome had a lot of slaves which were worked to death in horrible mines and fields, killed in arena for amusement... Still not many people consider Rome to be the Evil Empire.

Modifié par Ukki, 14 février 2014 - 10:17 .

[Uccio]

double

Modifié par Ukki, 14 février 2014 - 10:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ukki wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ukki wrote...

I´m still vaiting to hear the other side of the story.

You have. Caladrius, Decimus, and whatever that magister who kidnapped Maric's name was. And then there's the way they're described in WoT, which outright states that even the most morally upright Tevinters know a little bit of blood magic and gives a letter by a woman who's basically everything the Tevinters are described as by the Chantry. We also saw Maevaris, but her actions don't change the fact that there's demonstratably at least some truth to the propaganda.

The thing is that a society doesn't have to be 100% morally righteous in order to not be 100% morally evil.  I'm not saying that Tevinter is an awesome places, Disney World really, and it's only been vilified by the Chantry.  I AM saying that it's quite possible that Tevinter isn't quite so "all blood magic, all the time."

We know that both Wynne and Feynriel have been there.  And neither of them gave any indication that they thought it was a complete Hellscape. 

Complete hellscape, no. But I remember Feynriel noting that he suddenly understands the Templars POV.

I'm not saying the society is 100% evil. We've seen enough to know that's not the case. I'm just noting we've seen enough to know that there's some serious flaws in the society, and that the Chantry is pretty much hitting the nail on the head as far as those flaws go for all that they're missing the virtues. (Which is basically the same as you're saying, really.)

Rome had a lot of slaves which were worked to death in horrible mines and fields, killed in arena for amusement... Still not many people consider Rome to be the Evil Empire.

It's probably because of what Rome offered vis-à-vis the alternatives: it wasn't much worse, and offered a lot of pragmatic and public goods. Except for a certain minority, Tevinter doesn't have much going for it on a social level.

[Mistic]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's probably because of what Rome offered vis-à-vis the alternatives: it wasn't much worse, and offered a lot of pragmatic and public goods. Except for a certain minority, Tevinter doesn't have much going for it on a social level.

Tevinter did offer them... in the old days. Now it's just a vestigial empire. And their slavery system is very similar to that of Rome, including the libertus figure.

But we really need a new perspective of Tevinter. If only that supposed elven Teveniter mage companion existed...

Modifié par Misticsan, 14 février 2014 - 10:57 .