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[Dean_the_Young]

Tevinter only arguably provided something better in the old days. Infrastructure, sure, but they used it to hurt people rather than benefit them. Roman culture was something all the other barbarians wanted to assimilate, even when they ruled themselves- can we say the same about Tevinter?

I'm not sure what sort of new perspective of Tevinter would really change things. We've already had a lower class. If you take a reformist, you're conceding that the situation needs to be reformed. If you take an elitist, you're just showing that life isn't necessarily bad if you're already powerful enough. If you take a soldier, you'll probably be tied to the ongoing war, which isn't exactly a change of perspective.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Complete hellscape, no. But I remember Feynriel noting that he suddenly understands the Templars POV.

Feynriel addressed in his letter that he sometimes understands the templars; Tevinter is also the only society where the young mage could understand and master his powers, he uses those abilities to rescue a young woman, Orlanna, from being raped by the bandits who kidnapped her.

Also, in his letter, Feynriel thanks the Champion of Kirkwall because he owes the protagonist "his life and his future", so it goes back to Silfren's point that there's more to Tevinter than horrible people like Danarius and vile mages who are abusing blood magic.

I'm not denying the light side, and I'm not denying that the White Chantry is skating over that light side. I'm just pointing out that everything they said about Tevinter is at least partially true.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'm not saying the society is 100% evil. We've seen enough to know that's not the case. I'm just noting we've seen enough to know that there's some serious flaws in the society, and that the Chantry is pretty much hitting the nail on the head as far as those flaws go for all that they're missing the virtues. (Which is basically the same as you're saying, really.) 

While the Andrastian kingdoms, and the Chantry of Andraste, have their own share of horrible flaws, particularly when it comes to the issues of mages and magic.

My argument doesn't require this to be false.

Edit: Or in short...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You framed that as some sort of objection or counter, but there was no contradiction with what he said.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 février 2014 - 02:24 .

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And...?

You framed that as some sort of objection or counter, but there was no contradiction with what he said.

It was in the same vein as Riverdaleswhiteflash addressing that there were flaws with Tevinter Imperium, even though Silfren already acknowledged that there were serious flaws with Tevinter.

Frankly, I'm not certain how you possibly interpreted it as an objection or a counter, since I never denied that there were terrible aspects to the Imperium. Especially given how the initial part of my post supports Silfren's post in addressing the fact that there are horrible facets of Tevinter society.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Feynriel addressed in his letter that he sometimes understands the templars; Tevinter is also the only society where the young mage could understand and master his powers, he uses those abilities to rescue a young woman, Orlanna, from being raped by the bandits who kidnapped her.

Also, in his letter, Feynriel thanks the Champion of Kirkwall because he owes the protagonist "his life and his future", so it goes back to Silfren's point that there's more to Tevinter than horrible people like Danarius and vile mages who are abusing blood magic. 

I'm not denying the light side, and I'm not denying that the White Chantry is skating over that light side. I'm just pointing out that everything they said about Tevinter is at least partially true.

While the Andrastian Chantry's contention with the Imperium is over their schism about the teachings of Andraste and having mages in positions of political powers, since the historical account notes they attacked the "heathens" of the Imperium. I also find it noteworthy that both institutions engage in slavery, for example.

[Hellion Rex]

LobselVith8 wrote...
While the Andrastian Chantry's contention with the Imperium is over their schism about the teachings of Andraste and having mages in positions of political powers, since the historical account notes they attacked the "heathens" of the Imperium. I also find it noteworthy that both institutions engage in slavery, for example.

Not so much. Perhaps under the table in Orlais, but slavery has been pretty much outlawed outside of Tevinter, no?

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And...?

You framed that as some sort of objection or counter, but there was no contradiction with what he said.

It was in the same vein as Riverdaleswhiteflash addressing that there were flaws with Tevinter Imperium, even though Silfren already acknowledged that there were serious flaws with Tevinter.

Since that wasn't the vein River was addressing, the dissonance still stands out. River point was that the Chantry's accusations against Tevinter are supported: moral relativism or Tevinter's moral stature has nothing to do with that, and insisting it was already conceded doesn't address River's point.

Frankly, I'm not certain how you possibly interpreted it as an objection or a counter, since I never denied that there were terrible aspects to the Imperium. Especially given how the initial part of my post supports Silfren's post in addressing the fact that there are horrible facets of Tevinter society.

As I said, there was no contradiction in what you wrote- you just framed it in an oppossitional tone and yet went on a tangent.

While the Andrastian Chantry's contention with the Imperium is over their schism about the teachings of Andraste and having mages in positions of political powers, since the historical account notes they attacked the "heathens" of the Imperium. I also find it noteworthy that both institutions engage in slavery, for example.

Since the Circles aren't slavery as mages are not property or forced to serve, where do you recal the White Divine doing so?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

eluvianix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
While the Andrastian Chantry's contention with the Imperium is over their schism about the teachings of Andraste and having mages in positions of political powers, since the historical account notes they attacked the "heathens" of the Imperium. I also find it noteworthy that both institutions engage in slavery, for example.

Not so much. Perhaps under the table in Orlais, but slavery has been pretty much outlawed outside of Tevinter, no?

Slavery is, yes. Indentured servitude, on the other hand, seems perfectly accepted. Reminds me of Illium. 

[dragonflight288]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
While the Andrastian Chantry's contention with the Imperium is over their schism about the teachings of Andraste and having mages in positions of political powers, since the historical account notes they attacked the "heathens" of the Imperium. I also find it noteworthy that both institutions engage in slavery, for example.

Not so much. Perhaps under the table in Orlais, but slavery has been pretty much outlawed outside of Tevinter, no?

Slavery is, yes. Indentured servitude, on the other hand, seems perfectly accepted. Reminds me of Illium. 

Add in that Leliana tells a Dalish warden that many Orlesians are proud of their elvish slav, er, indentured servants. 

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
While the Andrastian Chantry's contention with the Imperium is over their schism about the teachings of Andraste and having mages in positions of political powers, since the historical account notes they attacked the "heathens" of the Imperium. I also find it noteworthy that both institutions engage in slavery, for example.

Not so much. Perhaps under the table in Orlais, but slavery has been pretty much outlawed outside of Tevinter, no?

Slavery is, yes. Indentured servitude, on the other hand, seems perfectly accepted. Reminds me of Illium. 

Add in that Leliana tells a Dalish warden that many Orlesians are proud of their elvish slav, er, indentured servants. 

Well yeah.  What something is in name doesn't mean much next to what it is in actuality.  And while it may be officially condemned, it sure doesn't seem to be the case that many nations are doing much to prevent slave trafficking from taking place within their borders.

Modifié par Silfren, 16 février 2014 - 03:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

By what measure? That they are corrupt and have weak law enforcement?

That's kind of the standard for proto-states with relatively weak institutions. Given that Thedas is overwhelmingly feudal, what's your standard?

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was in the same vein as Riverdaleswhiteflash addressing that there were flaws with Tevinter Imperium, even though Silfren already acknowledged that there were serious flaws with Tevinter.

Since that wasn't the vein River was addressing, the dissonance still stands out. River point was that the Chantry's accusations against Tevinter are supported: moral relativism or Tevinter's moral stature has nothing to do with that, and insisting it was already conceded doesn't address River's point. 

Considering that the initial point made by Slfren was that there was more to Tevinter than it's horrible aspects (by addressing it's not entirely malevolent despite the Imperium's grave failings), it was precisely in that vein. In fact, the Chantry's condemnation of Tevinter has nothing to do with the fact that there's more to the Imperium than the monstrous facets of the society. Why this seems to continually elude you confounds me.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While the Andrastian Chantry's contention with the Imperium is over their schism about the teachings of Andraste and having mages in positions of political powers, since the historical account notes they attacked the "heathens" of the Imperium. I also find it noteworthy that both institutions engage in slavery, for example.

Since the Circles aren't slavery as mages are not property or forced to serve, where do you recal the White Divine doing so? 

And yet, some characters address the Circles as slavery, while some in-game authors address mages being forced into servitude to the Chantry.

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

He continued to serve regardless of personal injury even in a field capacity namely i am a believer of "Exprience is the best teacher" Namely even in limited capacity such as he was capable of aiding the Common people against the threat of Magic which he ultimately did.

Apart from that?

I think life long dedication to the order is a good thing and obviously when you have done it to the extent he has, it has become a life long dedication; Not simply a passing whim.

Those were the same reasons I had. As well as him being compassionate wheras plenty of guards/Templars have shown to detatch themselves from their charges, thus destroying a connection needed to truly serve others well. 

Apologies for the delay but reality kept me away but i will respond now.

Compassion, Connections and Expanding boundaries of respect and mutual appreication; Nothing is inherently wrong with anything of things but when you apply to the Warden and Charge scenario it leads to complicated and utimately duty testing crisises of faith should an incident arise.

Personally? While i think mutual respect is a needed element within the circle that should be all considering that if you hesitate against a Mage whom was once a freind and is now a threat to other charges; You risk not only yourself and other charges but also every soul within the nation the circle inhabits.

So yes while i think duty should be tempered by mercy; it should not be blinded by it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was in the same vein as Riverdaleswhiteflash addressing that there were flaws with Tevinter Imperium, even though Silfren already acknowledged that there were serious flaws with Tevinter.

Since that wasn't the vein River was addressing, the dissonance still stands out. River point was that the Chantry's accusations against Tevinter are supported: moral relativism or Tevinter's moral stature has nothing to do with that, and insisting it was already conceded doesn't address River's point. 

Considering that the initial point made by Slfren was that there was more to Tevinter than it's horrible aspects (by addressing it's not entirely malevolent despite the Imperium's grave failings), it was precisely in that vein. In fact, the Chantry's condemnation of Tevinter has nothing to do with the fact that there's more to the Imperium than the monstrous facets of the society. Why this seems to continually elude you confounds me.

Insofar as you can get tone across in this format, you did seem to be taking a tone of opposition. (Though I'll note that there's room for error there, since again, this isn't a good format for tone.)

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While the Andrastian Chantry's contention with the Imperium is over their schism about the teachings of Andraste and having mages in positions of political powers, since the historical account notes they attacked the "heathens" of the Imperium. I also find it noteworthy that both institutions engage in slavery, for example.

Since the Circles aren't slavery as mages are not property or forced to serve, where do you recal the White Divine doing so? 

And yet, some characters address the Circles as slavery, while some in-game authors address mages being forced into servitude to the Chantry.

The fact that some characters in a setting say certain things are true doesn't mean that they are true in the setting. And since the Codex is written by these characters, the same goes there. And taking into account the factors that Dean mentioned, this looks more like a quarantine than slavery. (And it's pretty loose as far as quarantines go, really. Wynne is allowed to travel the length and breadth of Ferelden with the Warden, and out of the country apparently alone.)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

He continued to serve regardless of personal injury even in a field capacity namely i am a believer of "Exprience is the best teacher" Namely even in limited capacity such as he was capable of aiding the Common people against the threat of Magic which he ultimately did.

Apart from that?

I think life long dedication to the order is a good thing and obviously when you have done it to the extent he has, it has become a life long dedication; Not simply a passing whim.

Those were the same reasons I had. As well as him being compassionate wheras plenty of guards/Templars have shown to detatch themselves from their charges, thus destroying a connection needed to truly serve others well. 

Apologies for the delay but reality kept me away but i will respond now.

Compassion, Connections and Expanding boundaries of respect and mutual appreication; Nothing is inherently wrong with anything of things but when you apply to the Warden and Charge scenario it leads to complicated and utimately duty testing crisises of faith should an incident arise.

Personally? While i think mutual respect is a needed element within the circle that should be all considering that if you hesitate against a Mage whom was once a freind and is now a threat to other charges; You risk not only yourself and other charges but also every soul within the nation the circle inhabits.

So yes while i think duty should be tempered by mercy; it should not be blinded by it.

Ooh, that was the word I was thinking of. Respect. Thank you, Master Warden Z. I was trying to think that, but couldn't so used compassion instead.

[PinkysPain]

Veruin wrote...
So, how does strengthing the veil prevent possessions? Connor was possessed and his demon never left the fade.

Do I really need to magobabble??? Sigh, fine.

Demonic control works by allowing a small part of the demonic essence to seep through the veil along the path through which mages extract power from the fade to fuel their magic. When the veil is sufficiently strengthened not only their physical travel is made impossible, but even this essence is blocked.

If you don't find that convincing enough add more bull****.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 21 février 2014 - 11:59 .

[dragonflight288]

PinkysPain wrote...

Veruin wrote...
So, how does strengthing the veil prevent possessions? Connor was possessed and his demon never left the fade.

Do I really need to magobabble??? Sigh, fine.

Demonic control works by allowing a small part of the demonic essence to seep through the veil along the path through which mages extract power from the fade to fuel their magic. When the veil is sufficiently strengthened not only their physical travel is made impossible, but even this essence is blocked.

If you don't find that convincing enough add more bull****.

How about that the devs also confirmed that a stronger veil actually makes a mages powers weaker since they are drawing on the power of the Fade?

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

Veruin wrote...
So, how does strengthing the veil prevent possessions? Connor was possessed and his demon never left the fade.

Do I really need to magobabble??? Sigh, fine.

Demonic control works by allowing a small part of the demonic essence to seep through the veil along the path through which mages extract power from the fade to fuel their magic. When the veil is sufficiently strengthened not only their physical travel is made impossible, but even this essence is blocked.

If you don't find that convincing enough add more bull****.

How about that the devs also confirmed that a stronger veil actually makes a mages powers weaker since they are drawing on the power of the Fade?

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm gonna need to see confimation for that. How do we know for sure that strengthening the Veil would hamper magical abilities?

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

Veruin wrote...
So, how does strengthing the veil prevent possessions? Connor was possessed and his demon never left the fade.

Do I really need to magobabble??? Sigh, fine.

Demonic control works by allowing a small part of the demonic essence to seep through the veil along the path through which mages extract power from the fade to fuel their magic. When the veil is sufficiently strengthened not only their physical travel is made impossible, but even this essence is blocked.

If you don't find that convincing enough add more bull****.

How about that the devs also confirmed that a stronger veil actually makes a mages powers weaker since they are drawing on the power of the Fade?

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm gonna need to see confimation for that. How do we know for sure that strengthening the Veil would hamper magical abilities?

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Mana_and_the_Use_of_Magic

Particularly this line. Mana is, then, a measurement of one's ability to draw power from the Fade, and it is this power that is expended in magic.

I've been looking up a post where the devs commented on this as well, but I've got to get to work so I'll have to keep looking later.

I'll keep this up to date, unless someone else finds it for me while I'm at work. 

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

He continued to serve regardless of personal injury even in a field capacity namely i am a believer of "Exprience is the best teacher" Namely even in limited capacity such as he was capable of aiding the Common people against the threat of Magic which he ultimately did.

Apart from that?

I think life long dedication to the order is a good thing and obviously when you have done it to the extent he has, it has become a life long dedication; Not simply a passing whim.

Those were the same reasons I had. As well as him being compassionate wheras plenty of guards/Templars have shown to detatch themselves from their charges, thus destroying a connection needed to truly serve others well. 

Apologies for the delay but reality kept me away but i will respond now.

Compassion, Connections and Expanding boundaries of respect and mutual appreication; Nothing is inherently wrong with anything of things but when you apply to the Warden and Charge scenario it leads to complicated and utimately duty testing crisises of faith should an incident arise.

Personally? While i think mutual respect is a needed element within the circle that should be all considering that if you hesitate against a Mage whom was once a freind and is now a threat to other charges; You risk not only yourself and other charges but also every soul within the nation the circle inhabits.

So yes while i think duty should be tempered by mercy; it should not be blinded by it.

Ooh, that was the word I was thinking of. Respect. Thank you, Master Warden Z. I was trying to think that, but couldn't so used compassion instead.

Aa i personally think it's one of the more important elements needed in any restructured circle.

[Martyr1777]

Master Warder Z wrote...
Aa i personally think it's one of the more important elements needed in any restructured circle.

But how can you generate mutual respect when ultimately one side of the coin... holds a higher position shall we say..

As long as mages have to live in a controled envirornment and they are not the ones in control of that enviornment then the Templars who are more incontrol will always have a growing number of power trippers.

Just like IRL police or prison guards, and the reality is a Circle is just an ultra minimum security prison.

Now if things were reversed and Mages had control over themselves, could come and go as they please etc... BUT Tamplar's need to be in attendance for all magical activity inside the tower and all excursions outside and were more a bodyguard, if you will, to the mages there would be some difference.

You still have the safty of templars, but the mages aren't under their control, just monitored for unseemly actions. It's still not a perfect system but probably the only way it would work. But then the Chantry isn't in control and I think that would get alot of opposition.

Modifié par Martyr1777, 22 février 2014 - 01:43 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Martyr1777 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Aa i personally think it's one of the more important elements needed in any restructured circle.

But how can you generate mutual respect when ultimately one side of the coin... holds a higher position shall we say..

As long as mages have to live in a controled envirornment and they are not the ones in control of that enviornment then the Templars who are more incontrol will always have a growing number of power trippers.

Just like IRL police or prison guards, and the reality is a Circle is just an ultra minimum security prison.

Now if things were reversed and Mages had control over themselves, could come and go as they please etc... BUT Tamplar's need to be in attendance for all magical activity inside the tower and all excursions outside and were more a bodyguard, if you will, to the mages there would be some difference.

You still have the safty of templars, but the mages aren't under their control, just monitored for unseemly actions. It's still not a perfect system but probably the only way it would work. But then the Chantry isn't in control and I think that would get alot of opposition.

So your grand solution is to what? Relegate the Templars into serving boys with swords? I am certain that would go over well with the Chantry and Order it self; Point is Mages cannot be trusted with the freedom to exist in society and furthermore i doubt they would be welcome there anyway.

Yeah no the circle system worked for a thousand years and it will be reinstated more likely then not. I personally don't see how mages could intergrate themselves in a society that generally frowns upon magic and for good reason.

Mutual respect? I'd assume it be ensured by both parties given that they need each other and that is the truth, With out Mages to watch over the Templar order lacks a purpose and with out templars the mages are unprotected, Both from the outside world and themselves. They both have need of each other, it merely needs to be acknowledged.

Not saying the current system is perfect but it did keep the world intact despite the mages best efforts for a thousand years  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Martyr1777 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Aa i personally think it's one of the more important elements needed in any restructured circle.

But how can you generate mutual respect when ultimately one side of the coin... holds a higher position shall we say..

As long as mages have to live in a controled envirornment and they are not the ones in control of that enviornment then the Templars who are more incontrol will always have a growing number of power trippers.

That's one reason I think that the war is an unfortunate neccesity. The Templars will never respect the mages as long as they hold them under their thumb, but once the mages show what they are capable of they will at least be respected as worthy opponents. That respect will branch out into other parts and eventually develop into mutual respect. 

To use an example, ever notice how sometimes two guys who hate each other get into a fight, but after the fight they are cool with each other? Something like that.

[Martyr1777]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Aa i personally think it's one of the more important elements needed in any restructured circle.

But how can you generate mutual respect when ultimately one side of the coin... holds a higher position shall we say..

As long as mages have to live in a controled envirornment and they are not the ones in control of that enviornment then the Templars who are more incontrol will always have a growing number of power trippers.

Just like IRL police or prison guards, and the reality is a Circle is just an ultra minimum security prison.

Now if things were reversed and Mages had control over themselves, could come and go as they please etc... BUT Tamplar's need to be in attendance for all magical activity inside the tower and all excursions outside and were more a bodyguard, if you will, to the mages there would be some difference.

You still have the safty of templars, but the mages aren't under their control, just monitored for unseemly actions. It's still not a perfect system but probably the only way it would work. But then the Chantry isn't in control and I think that would get alot of opposition.

So your grand solution is to what? Relegate the Templars into serving boys with swords? I am certain that would go over well with the Chantry and Order it self; Point is Mages cannot be trusted with the freedom to exist in society and furthermore i doubt they would be welcome there anyway.

Yeah no the circle system worked for a thousand years and it will be reinstated more likely then not. I personally don't see how mages could intergrate themselves in a society that generally frowns upon magic and for good reason.

Mutual respect? I'd assume it be ensured by both parties given that they need each other and that is the truth, With out Mages to watch over the Templar order lacks a purpose and with out templars the mages are unprotected, Both from the outside world and themselves. They both have need of each other, it merely needs to be acknowledged.

Not saying the current system is perfect but it did keep the world intact despite the mages best efforts for a thousand years

If the system could have developed *any* sort of respect between them then how has it only led to war in that 1000 years of 'success'.

I said myself the Chantry wouldn't got for looking less powerful then the mages, but its the only way it would work because neither side is dominating the other.

[Martyr1777]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Aa i personally think it's one of the more important elements needed in any restructured circle.

But how can you generate mutual respect when ultimately one side of the coin... holds a higher position shall we say..

As long as mages have to live in a controled envirornment and they are not the ones in control of that enviornment then the Templars who are more incontrol will always have a growing number of power trippers.

That's one reason I think that the war is an unfortunate neccesity. The Templars will never respect the mages as long as they hold them under their thumb, but once the mages show what they are capable of they will at least be respected as worthy opponents. That respect will branch out into other parts and eventually develop into mutual respect. 

To use an example, ever notice how sometimes two guys who hate each other get into a fight, but after the fight they are cool with each other? Something like that.

Oh I've seen that a lot. Problem is this isn't just hate between them. The Mages hate, the Templars and common folk *fear*.

And with the mages 'loose' and showing what they are capable of it will just breed more of the same.

Think back to the scene in Asunder where they are in the Inn. Adrian starts to show and make threats with her power and it makes the villagers even more on edge.

Wars with the Qunari would generate the grudging respect you are getting at, because thats a conventional fight.

Mages with mages... well the mondane side just thinks they cheat, no respect to be won there.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Martyr1777 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Aa i personally think it's one of the more important elements needed in any restructured circle.

But how can you generate mutual respect when ultimately one side of the coin... holds a higher position shall we say..

As long as mages have to live in a controled envirornment and they are not the ones in control of that enviornment then the Templars who are more incontrol will always have a growing number of power trippers.

That's one reason I think that the war is an unfortunate neccesity. The Templars will never respect the mages as long as they hold them under their thumb, but once the mages show what they are capable of they will at least be respected as worthy opponents. That respect will branch out into other parts and eventually develop into mutual respect. 

To use an example, ever notice how sometimes two guys who hate each other get into a fight, but after the fight they are cool with each other? Something like that.

Oh I've seen that a lot. Problem is this isn't just hate between them. The Mages hate, the Templars and common folk *fear*.

And with the mages 'loose' and showing what they are capable of it will just breed more of the same.

Think back to the scene in Asunder where they are in the Inn. Adrian starts to show and make threats with her power and it makes the villagers even more on edge.

Wars with the Qunari would generate the grudging respect you are getting at, because thats a conventional fight.

Mages with mages... well the mondane side just thinks they cheat, no respect to be won there.

Thus why mages need to show they are people just like any other. So them doing what Adrian did will not help while doing things like helping others will earn them support.

[Martyr1777]

Damn phone... now I have to type this all again.

@LDS

Have the mages in any way shown they won't help others? A Circles is called to fight a blight, do the Templars have to force them? No.

But the common people don't know this, be cause mages are segregated from the rest of society the only thing the general population knows about them is what they are told by the Chanty and Templars.

Hell most are likely to never even see a mage, those that do will likely match the exerience of those villagers again. A young unskilled and untrained mage child that accidentally harms their community.

Mages need to be allowed out to shiw they aren't bad, obviously with Templar eacorts however. Its a chicken and egg scenario, mages can't get freedom without respect, but they can't earn respect without freedom.

And another thought on the 1000 years of 'success'...

I think that needs to be taken with much salt. I mean the writers can't cover that length of time in any detail. I fully beleive their have been other mage rebellions, just not at this scale, one circle at a time or so. Not to mention I thinks its insanely ridiculous to think in all that time there haven't been similar events and certainly other personalities like Anders, Fiona, Adrian, Meridith, and Lambert until now.