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[dragonflight288]

One of the problems historically between the two groups is that there has never been any period of time, ever, where they came together to debate or discuss and compromise on equal footing. At the formation of the Circles, the mages before then were really nothing more than janitors and the Templars were just formed from the Inquisition and were renowned hunters of the arcane.

Then the Circles arose, the templars took their place as guardians and observers, but gained the authority to force tranquility on mages they deemed weak, and the Chantry eventually claimed the right to kill every man, woman and child if they deemed a circle irredeemable.

The mages have never been in a position, well mages outside of Tevinter that is, to stand face to face with the templars on equal ground, where the templars have just as much to lose as the mages do should negotiations fail. Now that both groups have left the Chantry, and public sympathy has been increasing for mages and decreasing for templars, this may very well be the first time in the history of Thedas outside of Tevinter where mages and non-mages truly are on equal footing, and so long as the two groups continue to fight then everyone suffers in some fashion. Whether mages using blood magic, templars or red templars raiding towns to get lyrium supplies or simply to punish all the mundanes who may be supporting mages, or whatever.

[MisterJB]

Then the Circles arose, the templars took their place as guardians and observers, but gained the authority to force tranquility on mages they deemed weak,

No, they didn't. The First Enchanter had to approve it.

and the Chantry eventually claimed the right to kill every man, woman and child if they deemed a circle irredeemable.

The Chantry is not the Templars.

and public sympathy has been increasing for mages and decreasing for templars,

Cullen was referring only to Kirkwall. This is evident by how he mentions that everywhere else he served, the people welcome Templars with open arms.
In Orlais, it tooks about ten minutes for the townspeople to try and lynch three mages who weren't really doing anything.

this may very well be the first time in the history of Thedas outside of Tevinter where mages and non-mages truly are on equal footing,

Mages and normals are not on equal footing in Tevinter.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 février 2014 - 03:22 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

In Orlais, it tooks about ten minutes for the townspeople to try and lynch three mages who weren't really doing anything.

Point of technicality - that attempted lynching was partially in response to the assassination attempt on the Divine.

[MisterJB]

Point being, the mages are suddenly being seen as the victims of injustice in the majority of Thedas. And, no doubt, popular opinion of them will only diminish now that there's an even greater number of them on the outside without restrictions.

Not that the Templars' PR won't be affected too. Marauding armies are sorely appreciated.

[Anvos]

Why do people keep bringing up how long the circles have existed as proof of them working. If anything time says mundane and mage lived together in the same society for thousands of years before the Chantry comes along and starts making people believe magic is a curse to be feared.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Martyr1777 wrote...

Damn phone... now I have to type this all again.

@LDS

Have the mages in any way shown they won't help others? A Circles is called to fight a blight, do the Templars have to force them? No.

But the common people don't know this, be cause mages are segregated from the rest of society the only thing the general population knows about them is what they are told by the Chanty and Templars.

Hell most are likely to never even see a mage, those that do will likely match the exerience of those villagers again. A young unskilled and untrained mage child that accidentally harms their community.

Mages need to be allowed out to shiw they aren't bad, obviously with Templar eacorts however. Its a chicken and egg scenario, mages can't get freedom without respect, but they can't earn respect without freedom.

And another thought on the 1000 years of 'success'...

I think that needs to be taken with much salt. I mean the writers can't cover that length of time in any detail. I fully beleive their have been other mage rebellions, just not at this scale, one circle at a time or so. Not to mention I thinks its insanely ridiculous to think in all that time there haven't been similar events and certainly other personalities like Anders, Fiona, Adrian, Meridith, and Lambert until now.

I cant tell if you are agreeing or arguing since most of this is what I was saying?

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Then the Circles arose, the templars took their place as guardians and observers, but gained the authority to force tranquility on mages they deemed weak,

No, they didn't. The First Enchanter had to approve it.

Fair point, but we saw how much power a First Enchanter had to stop it from happening in Kirkwall. 

and the Chantry eventually claimed the right to kill every man, woman and child if they deemed a circle irredeemable.

The Chantry is not the Templars.

It's the Templars who commit the genocide. And it's the templars who make the request.

and public sympathy has been increasing for mages and decreasing for templars,

Cullen was referring only to Kirkwall. This is evident by how he mentions that everywhere else he served, the people welcome Templars with open arms.
In Orlais, it tooks about ten minutes for the townspeople to try and lynch three mages who weren't really doing anything.

Everywhere else he served? You mean Kinloch Hold in Ferelden. That's the only place. He was only just new to the Order in Origins. Then Gregoire thought he was too psychologically disturbed and traumatized to work around mages in the Circle where he suffered and sent him to Kirkwall.

At the point he says that line, he's only been in Ferelden and Kirkwall. And his codex specifically says the only reason he was promoted was because he shared Meredith's views of mages and wanted him to influence the otehr templars to that sort of thinking.

And in Orlais, it was Evangeline who stood between that mob, stating that it's the duty of a templar to protect mages from the world just as much as it is their duty to protect the world from mages. And Wynne admits that lynch mobs also form in Ferelden. 

I think we should also mention that Orlais is also the heart of the Chantry.

this may very well be the first time in the history of Thedas outside of Tevinter where mages and non-mages truly are on equal footing,

Mages and normals are not on equal footing in Tevinter.

I know. Tevinter has the reverse problem. I should have clarified that.

Still, this is the first time mages and non-mages are on equal footing....more or less. 

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Fair point, but we saw how much power a First Enchanter had to stop it from happening in Kirkwall. 

I did not see Orsino stopping it from happening when done through the proper channels.
Neither him nor Meredith knew what Alrik was doing.

It's the Templars who commit the genocide. And it's the templars who make the request.

And they require the approval of the Chantry, it's the Grand Cleric who holds the power.

Everywhere else he served? You mean Kinloch Hold in Ferelden. That's the only place. He was only just new to the Order in Origins. Then Gregoire thought he was too psychologically disturbed and traumatized to work around mages in the Circle where he suffered and sent him to Kirkwall.

At the point he says that line, he's only been in Ferelden and Kirkwall. And his codex specifically says the only reason he was promoted was because he shared Meredith's views of mages and wanted him to influence the otehr templars to that sort of thinking.

I mean what Cullen said.

"Every Circle in Thedas suffers from individual mages who rebel and
attempt to flee. These apostates are usually found and returned to the
Circle or mercifully killed if they have fallen to demonic temptation.
Until now, I have never served anywhere that the populace does not fully
cooperate in hunting these rebels."
Codex Entry: The Mage Underground.

And in Orlais, it was Evangeline who stood between that mob, stating that it's the duty of a templar to protect mages from the world just as much as it is their duty to protect the world from mages. And Wynne admits that lynch mobs also form in Ferelden. 

I think we should also mention that Orlais is also the heart of the Chantry.

True but you just said lynch mobs also form in Ferelden.

I know. Tevinter has the reverse problem. I should have clarified that.

Still, this is the first time mages and non-mages are on equal footing....more or less. 

No really. Mages are just rebels within the lands of normals. Their ability to kill people with their minds makes them a threat to the common people while the authority of the nobles places them above the mages.
At most, they are on an equal footing with the Templars...which they already were in the Circle...more or less.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 février 2014 - 03:06 .

[LobselVith8]

Fair point, but we saw how much power a First Enchanter had to stop it from happening in Kirkwall. 
 

 

In fact, Irving (a member of the moderate Aequitarians) admits that he wouldn't proceed with Jowan's Rite of Tranquility if it were up to him, but he makes it clear that life in the Chantry controlled Circle is as a matter of survival. As he says, "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

[Master Warder Z_]

In fact, Irving (a member of the moderate Aequitarians) admits that he wouldn't proceed with Jowan's Rite of Tranquility if it were up to him, but he makes it clear that life in the Chantry controlled Circle is as a matter of survival. As he says, "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

 

So you wouldn't make a blood mage either pay the price for his taboo practice with his life or connection to those talents? That's either mercy to a near idiotic level or just so much apathy i couldn't personally relate to it.

 

The Mages signed the accord and agreed to the Circle system, The Chantry and Inquisition both agreed to the system.  You act like Irving did not know this; And him purposefully misleading the PC with his trite Poor Mage BS was often a point of humor in my Mage PC's Origin given that even a vague glance around the tower and the later events there demonstrate again and again that the Templars exist for a very valid reason, the Mages are locked away for very valid reasons.

[LobselVith8]

So you wouldn't make a blood mage either pay the price for his taboo practice with his life or connection to those talents? That's either mercy to a near idiotic level or just so much apathy i couldn't personally relate to it.

 

The Mages signed the accord and agreed to the Circle system, The Chantry and Inquisition both agreed to the system.  You act like Irving did not know this; And him purposefully misleading the PC with his trite Poor Mage BS was often a point of humor in my Mage PC's Origin given that even a vague glance around the tower and the later events there demonstrate again and again that the Templars exist for a very valid reason, the Mages are locked away for very valid reasons.

 

Since blood magic isn't inherently evil, I don't think that turning someone into an emotionless thrall for the Chantry of Andraste should be the response to a mage learning blood magic. The fact that Jowan can become Master Levyn, and protect refugees from the darkspawn, demonstrates that blood magic doesn't automatically turn a mage into an evil person.

 

And the mages of the Circles are at the mercy of the Chantry, to the point where their militant arm is taught that they have dominion over mages by "divine right". I will never see the mages' servitude as justified.

[Master Warder Z_]

Since blood magic isn't inherently evil, I don't think that turning someone into an emotionless thrall for the Chantry of Andraste should be the response to a mage learning blood magic. The fact that Jowan can become Master Levyn, and protect refugees from the darkspawn, demonstrates that blood magic doesn't automatically turn a mage into an evil person.

 

And the mages of the Circles are at the mercy of the Chantry, to the point where their militant arm is taught that they have dominion over mages by "divine right". I will never see the mages' servitude as justified.

 

 

Uh-huh sure; a school taught by demons, has its origins to demons and is powered by demons couldn't possibly be considered a corrupting influence, evil or otherwise far more dangerous then other "school" of magic 

 

They are serving their God, and thus to have divine right when it comes to guarding the world from Mages and vice versa protecting mages from the world at least to their perspective.

[LobselVith8]

Uh-huh sure; a school taught by demons, has its origins to demons and is powered by demons couldn't possibly be considered a corrupting influence, evil or otherwise far more dangerous then other "school" of magic 

 

They are serving their God, and thus to have divine right when it comes to guarding the world from Mages and vice versa protecting mages from the world at least to their perspective.

 

No one knows the inception of blood magic; it has different inceptions, depending on who you ask. Some scholars speculate the Arlathan elves may have taught humanity blood magic, while Tevinter thinks Dumat taught humanity blood magic. It's possible other non-Andrastian cultures may have some different origin stories about who originated the school of magic.

 

Also, blood magic is powered by blood, not by demons. Unless there's a recton about blood magic in Inquisition, of course.

 

The anti-mage rhetoric is what I find appalling about Andrastian culture and their religious organization. It's why I prefer the Dalish cultural and religious perspective: that magic is a gift of the Creators.

[Master Warder Z_]

No one knows the inception of blood magic; it has different inceptions, depending on who you ask. Some scholars speculate the Arlathan elves may have taught humanity blood magic, while Tevinter thinks Dumat taught humanity blood magic. It's possible other non-Andrastian cultures may have some different origin stories about who originated the school of magic.

 

Also, blood magic is powered by blood, not by demons. Unless there's a recton about blood magic in Inquisition, of course.

 

The anti-mage rhetoric is what I find appalling about Andrastian culture and their religious organization. It's why I prefer the Dalish cultural and religious perspective: that magic is a gift of the Creators.

 

The Four Origin Demons are a myth of giving Blood Magic to the Men of ancient Tveinter, But's convoluted in Myth and history much like Dumat although.there is certain lore within DAO that gives some credence to this theory such as the ancient Warden in Soldier's Peak.

 

Averenus stated quite pointedly that using blood magic against creatures of the fade was a pointless gesture as it originated with them; And while i consider the magic to be more complicated then that it does point towards Demons being the orginination of that power if you can take the ancient blood mage at his word, and considering quite a few folks take cory at his word, why can't i believe a blood mage that actually retained at least a semblance of his humanity?

 

Gift? Pfft right   And it's one of the things i laughed at one screen when Merril blamed the loss of her entire species magic on Humanity.

 

In truth? If that was actually true ._. it should be something they should thank Humanity for.

[ReadingRambo220]

I've seen several bits of lore that discuss that mages are becoming more and more prevalent, and I assume this is related to the events of Inquisition. Of course they could have just been discussing Kirkwall.

[TheLittleBird]

I've seen several bits of lore that discuss that mages are becoming more and more prevalent, and I assume this is related to the events of Inquisition. Of course they could have just been discussing Kirkwall.

 

Well, I guess this has to do with the whole situation regarding the events of Kirkwall, and the start of the Mage-Templar War. Apostates are not afraid anymore to show their face in public, and rise up in rebellion.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

And the mages of the Circles are at the mercy of the Chantry, to the point where their militant arm is taught that they have dominion over mages by "divine right". I will never see the mages' servitude as justified.

 

When have the Templars or Chantry ever claimed or preached a doctrine of divine right over the mages?

 

Since you used actual quotations, I'm sure you have an actual direct source you're quoting from... right?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Uh-huh sure; a school taught by demons, has its origins to demons and is powered by demons couldn't possibly be considered a corrupting influence, evil or otherwise far more dangerous then other "school" of magic 

 

They are serving their God, and thus to have divine right when it comes to guarding the world from Mages and vice versa protecting mages from the world at least to their perspective.

 

Well, we have from Gaider that the school isn't inherently evil, and that the evil done with it is due to the fact that things that give you incredible amounts of power make it easier to lose your morals.

 

I can't really argue that there aren't Templars who feel that way, though I'll note that the fact that they feel that way doesn't make them right. Still, I'll note to Lobsel that there are some compelling arguments for their points. (Not the point about them serving their god: the Chantry states that he doesn't care, and there's no really strong evidence that he exists.) Also note that many of the Templars really are doing their best to protect mages from the world, and that we see their point occasionally.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Well, we have from Gaider that the school isn't inherently evil, and that the evil done with it is due to the fact that things that give you incredible amounts of power make it easier to lose your morals.

 

I can't really argue that there aren't Templars who feel that way, though I'll note that the fact that they feel that way doesn't make them right. Still, I'll note to Lobsel that there are some compelling arguments for their points. (Not the point about them serving their god: the Chantry states that he doesn't care, and there's no really strong evidence that he exists.) Also note that many of the Templars really are doing their best to protect mages from the world, and that we see their point occasionally.

 

Technicly, it doesn't make them wrong either.

 

And the danger of blood magic is vast. It is the most tempting of all schools of magic, the easiest to abuse. And one whos'e effectivness is tied to suffering.

 

There's no way to make a blood mage "safe", hence why death or tranqulity are the only options.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Technicly, it doesn't make them wrong either.

 

And the danger of blood magic is vast. It is the most tempting of all schools of magic, the easiest to abuse. And one whos'e effectivness is tied to suffering.

 

There's no way to make a blood mage "safe", hence why death or tranqulity are the only options.

 

Yes, but my point is that you can't really use their beliefs in an argument barring evidence to support those beliefs.

 

You have a point about blood magic being something that tempts its users to do evil, but there's still legitimate uses for it. I'll note that there's room for argument as to whether or not those legitimate uses cancel out the serious temptation to use it poorly, but they're still relevant to the argument. Though as far as the temptation goes, we see blood mages who resist it. One of whom (Jowan) otherwise has basically the weakest character of anyone in the series. So it's not inevitable that the mage will give in to this temptation.

 

Edit: Note that I don't think Jowan should have been allowed to learn blood magic at all. If there's an official channel to learn it, that channel should require careful vetting of the sort Jowan didn't get. But the fact remains that he didn't end up going barking mad.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yes, but my point is that you can't really use their beliefs in an argument barring evidence to support those beliefs.

 

You have a point about blood magic being something that tempts its users to do evil, but there's still legitimate uses for it. I'll note that there's room for argument as to whether or not those legitimate uses cancel out the serious temptation to use it poorly, but they're still relevant to the argument. Though as far as the temptation goes, we see blood mages who resist it. One of whom (Jowan) otherwise has basically the weakest character of anyone in the series. So it's not inevitable that the mage will give in to this temptation.

 

Edit: Note that I don't think Jowan should have been allowed to learn blood magic at all. If there's an official channel to learn it, that channel should require careful vetting of the sort Jowan didn't get. But the fact remains that he didn't end up going barking mad.

 

 

Legitimate uses? such as what? To me the only thing that even vaguely comes close to legitimate usage of that "school" is using it against darkspawn in a blight. Short of that, no need, no point, too dangerous, should be so highly taboo and illegal even a hint of it leaking into a circle should be investigated. Meredith was actually right in this regard; Blood Magic corrupted that Circle, It can corrupt others if it is ever allowed to take root, so its simpler to just make sure it never does.

 

 

On Jowan? He wasn't mad i grant you;No he just lied, shifted until he ultimately sold out his morals entirely and became a hired thug.

 

He really isn't the paragon some pro mages make him out to be, And he ultimately deserved  the knife the PC rammed into his guts.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Legitimate uses? such as what? To me the only thing that even vaguely comes close to legitimate usage of that "school" is using it against darkspawn in a blight. Short of that, no need, no point, too dangerous, should be so highly taboo and illegal even a hint of it leaking into a circle should be investigated. Meredith was actually right in this regard; Blood Magic corrupted that Circle, It can corrupt others if it is ever allowed to take root, so its simpler to just make sure it never does.

 

 

On Jowan? He wasn't mad i grant you;No he just lied, shifted until he ultimately sold out his morals entirely and became a hired thug.

 

He really isn't the paragon some pro mages make him out to be, And he ultimately deserved  the knife the PC rammed into his guts.

 

See also: otherwise the weakest character in the game.

 

But my point is that despite his otherwise weak moral character, he didn't give into the temptations that Lotion's arguing make blood magic too dangerous.  Picture what it would look like if a Blood Mage really did give up his morals entirely. It's far scarier than Jowan.

 

As for legitimate use of Blood Magic, the Qunari are dangerous too. They're basically the only force in Thedas besides the spawn that can make me sympathize with the Tevinters. They're not as dangerous as the darkspawn, but their takeover would still be very bad news. And apparently Blood Magic can boost healing spells, as well. According to WoT, a blood mage can save someone who is otherwise past magical intervention. So there's that.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

double post

[Master Warder Z_]

Did you seriously just quote yourself?

 

._.

 

My Avatar is Kami and i don't do that.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Not on purpose. I'm still getting used to the new layout.