645 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

How about a system in where a force fights not for mages or tempars but for peace?

 

The Templars are too biased and the system is too open for abuse when Templars only task is to kill mages.

 

The mages are people with power which needs a check.

 

So create a force in where the purpose is to play the moderate who only uses violence when any side howls for blood.

 

This group will integrate both mages and templars, living by a code of peacekeeping.

 

Think the Jedis in where they actually gaiend the people's respect during the time of the Galactic Republic (sure there's the anti-Jedi sentiments but overall they were generally seen as heroes until the Sith took over)

 

Hmm templars need power to keep mages in check what gives them opportunity to abuse them simple take that opportunity and they won't able keep mages in check...

 

and we have seekers to do that at least that what in theory seekers should be but as we see they were turned into nothing more than an elite templars that same will be with that group either mages will have control or non-mages someone have to...

 

some jedi were worse than some siths being knight templars or even corrupted but mostly siths are mega di*** but it isn't always truth...

[Savber100]

Basically what I'm saying is turn the mages in to something akin to Jedi Order.

 

 

Sure there's always the temptation to fall into the 'dark side' but what's better to oppose a fallen mage than an army of mages and templars dedicated to keep the peace?

 

 

I guess that's what the Inquistion is going to be for.

 

 

Obviously the system isn't perfect but that's another issue.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It would definitely boost the Mages' PR if good mages helped stopped evil mages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Basically what I'm saying is turn the mages in to something akin to Jedi Order.

 

 

Sure there's always the temptation to fall into the 'dark side' but what's better to oppose a fallen mage than an army of mages and templars dedicated to keep the peace?

 

 

I guess that's what the Inquistion is going to be for.

 

 

Obviously the system isn't perfect but that's another issue.

 

impossible as it isn't matter of morality simple fact being mage makes them precisely as dangerous as "evil" mages...

 

possessed can be "good" mage and "evil" mage add here traits like stupidity , naivety that bot that group can be described...

 

So it is not conflict of philosophy...

 

and explain who will decide who is good and who is evil?

[Master Warder Z_]

It would definitely boost the Mages' PR if good mages helped stopped evil mages.

 

Indeed!

 

Which is why i find defense of Orsino almost criminal considering he actively worked to conceal a murderous blood mage.

[Savber100]

impossible as it isn't matter of morality simple fact being mage makes them precisely as dangerous as "evil" mages...

 

possessed can be "good" mage and "evil" mage add here traits like stupidity , naivety that bot that group can be described...

 

So it is not conflict of philosophy...

 

and explain who will decide who is good and who is evil?

Just as having Force Powers made the Jedi just as dangerous as the Sith...

 

We can't cure stupidity or naivety but we can definitely educate. The curreny system of educating mages is simply fear. It has clearly failed.

 

Good? Evil? They are words but I think we can ultimately agree that most people will deem those who take the lives of others for their own sakes are generally frowned upon.

 

Life is a value that people with power should respect.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Just as having Force Powers made the Jedi just as dangerous as the Sith...

 

We can't cure stupidity or naivety but we can definitely educate. The curreny system of educating mages is simply fear. It has clearly failed.

 

Good? Evil? They are words but I think we can ultimately agree that most people will deem those who take the lives of others for their own sakes are generally frowned upon.

 

Life is a value that people with power should respect.

 

Not rly having force doesn't not make you insane machine destruction that will try destroy everything...

 

Mages can't be controled as humans can't unless we go for ultimate control and mages incidents are 100x more destructive than common human causes and another matter that abomnation is beyond control and every mage can become one "good" or "evil" dark side or light philosophy doesn't matter.

 

Most peoples see as evil peoples who don't think as they think so just put dictator and he will burn or punish everyone who disagree with him... same for templars who think that mage who doesn't want follow andraste is automatically evil...

 

pretty words but it will never be in case in real world as always it will end on idea you might even create illusion that is in case but in practice that will never be...

[LobselVith8]

 

Revered Mother Hannah: Don't worry. I won't raise a mob against you.

 

Why on earth would she need to feel the need to say that, unless such things happened?

 

 

Wynne also addresses this being a common occurrence for mages outside the Circles, in the Andrastian kingdoms.

[Master Warder Z_]

Wynne also addresses this being a common occurrence for mages outside the Circles, in the Andrastian kingdoms.

 

She also expressed that she set a boy's hair on fire.

 

._. Cause and effect at work here.

[Dean_the_Young]

How about a system in where a force fights not for mages or tempars but for peace?

 

The Templars are too biased and the system is too open for abuse when Templars only task is to kill mages.

 

The mages are people with power which needs a check.

 

So create a force in where the purpose is to play the moderate who only uses violence when any side howls for blood.

 

This group will integrate both mages and templars, living by a code of peacekeeping.

 

Think the Jedis in where they actually gaiend the people's respect during the time of the Galactic Republic (sure there's the anti-Jedi sentiments but overall they were generally seen as heroes until the Sith took over)

 

Neither the mages or Templars are against the idea of peace. The squabble is about how the peace will be preserved. Prevention? Post-crime punishment?

[Savber100]

Not rly having force doesn't not make you insane machine destruction that will try destroy everything...

 

Mages can't be controled as humans can't unless we go for ultimate control and mages incidents are 100x more destructive than common human causes and another matter that abomnation is beyond control and every mage can become one "good" or "evil" dark side or light philosophy doesn't matter.

 

Most peoples see as evil peoples who don't think as they think so just put dictator and he will burn or punish everyone who disagree with him... same for templars who think that mage who doesn't want follow andraste is automatically evil...

 

pretty words but it will never be in case in real world as always it will end on idea you might even create illusion that is in case but in practice that will never be...

Dude, Jedi and Sith are pretty much space mages and the Force is pretty much space magic. Both mages and Force users can become insane psychopaths. The temptation is strong. The parallel is uncanny.  

 

Mages don't need to be controlled. They needed to hold themselves responsible. They need a goal in where there's alternatives to being stuck in a Circle until wartime or death. I argue that this can be achieved through an organization in where the goal is to serve and peacekeep with no allegiances to no one individual or religion. It needs to be a system of checks and balances in where the power of the mages is monitored by both templars and mages together. 

 

There will always be evil mages but I'm willing to bet that 90% of them want to simply live their life in peace. This 90% can counter whatever 10%. that choose to wreck havoc on the world. 

 

In the DA world, we even have the advantage in where non-mages (templar) can also play a part in checking the abuse of power from mages. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Dude, Jedi and Sith are pretty much space mages and the Force is pretty much space magic. Both mages and Force users can become insane psychopaths. The temptation is strong. The parallel is uncanny.  

 

Mages don't need to be controlled. They needed to hold themselves responsible. They need a goal in where there's alternatives to being stuck in a Circle until wartime or death. I argue that this can be achieved through an organization in where the goal is to serve and peacekeep with no allegiances to no one individual or religion. It needs to be a system of checks and balances in where the power of the mages is monitored by both templars and mages together. 

 

There will always be evil mages but I'm willing to bet that 90% of them want to simply live their life in peace. This 90% can counter whatever 10%. that choose to wreck havoc on the world. 

 

In the DA world, we even have the advantage in where non-mages (templar) can also play a part in checking the abuse of power from mages. 

 

So you're a believer of Mages existing outside of the Circle? Existing and living their lives in every day society? Among normal people? 

 

What system do you propose that doesn't have the majority of a region's mages secured in a singular location for both observation and safekeeping provides the same level of security and detail? How is an outside party to determine if a mage is crossing into the forbidden? Studying and constructing Arcane horrors the likes of which the world should never see?

 

As you said the temptation is always there; And more often then not you see mages putting their own agenda, their own needs ahead of the everyday societies so how exactly are you to ensure that this doesn't occur in practice you you cannot monitor them?

[Savber100]

So you're a believer of Mages existing outside of the Circle? Existing and living their lives in every day society? Among normal people? 

 

What system do you propose that doesn't have the majority of a region's mages secured in a singular location for both observation and safekeeping provides the same level of security and detail? How is an outside party to determine if a mage is crossing into the forbidden? Studying and constructing Arcane horrors the likes of which the world should never see?

 

As you said the temptation is always there; And more often then not you see mages putting their own agenda, their own needs ahead of the everyday societies so how exactly are you to ensure that this doesn't occur in practice you you cannot monitor them?

 

I think what I'm more proposing is introducing a check and balances. The biggest issue with the old system is that while the templar held the mages in check (for a while), the mages couldn't do anything in response of abuses. They can hold a council but it had no power. It was like holding bottle of bees and shaking it. It didn't solve anything and only exacerbate the problem. 

 

I believe that the Circle was an idea that could work but was poorly implemented. A mage gets sent there, lives in utter fear, and can never leave unless wartime. 

 

What life is that? 

 

So instead I believe that an organization should be created in where similar to the Jedi Order in where mages are ruled by mages. They punish their own but they will live by a code of law set by the Divine herself. The Templars will be under her hand-chosen agents (perhaps the Seeker) in where the Templars are called upon when certain events get out of control. That said, the Circle itself will answer directly to the Seekers and the Divine. The key is that they are not controlled by non-mages while still being held in check by a substantial force ( The Divine, Seekers, and the Templars). On the other hand, the Templars will be held back by the Divine and the Seekers along with the Circle in where the Circle can appeal to the Divine directly if there is an abuse of power.

 

The rise of the Inquistion presents another great opportunity in where a third-party can involve themselves in making sure both Mages and Templars keep the peace. This organization can work with Templars to hunt down "evil" mages (people who will do harm) while protecting mages as people. They will work to serve as the moderator in event of extremism from either side. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I think what I'm more proposing is introducing a check and balances. The biggest issue with the old system is that while the templar held the mages in check (for a while), the mages couldn't do anything in response of abuses. It was like holding bottle of bees and shaking it. It didn't solve anything and only exacerbate the problem. 

 

I believe that the Circle was an idea that could work but was poorly implemented. A mage gets sent there, lives in utter fear, and can never leave unless wartime. 

 

What life is that? 

 

So instead I believe that an organization should be created in where similar to the Jedi Order in where mages are ruled by mages. They punish their own and live by a code of law set by the Divine herself. The Templars will be under her hand-chosen agents (perhaps the Seeker) in where the Templars are called upon when certain events get out of control. 

 

The rise of the Inquistion presents another great opportunity in where a third-party can involve themselves in making sure both Mages and Templars keep the peace. This organization can work with Templars to hunt down "evil" mages (people who will do harm) while protecting mages as people. They will work to serve as the moderator in event of extremism from either side. 

 

That doesn't exactly address my concerns however; You speak of Templar abuses what you don't speak of is how the influence of magic has been kept at bay in Thedas while the circles have operated. The mages do not dominate any facet of society, economy or religion. They cannot inherit titles, they cannot be involved in politics and they cannot own business or land.The point of this is obvious; the corruption of power exists outside of base physical abilities, You allow Mages to govern themselves, soon they will elect to govern the economy, and then the political world and then men.

 

You cannot just uncork the bottle, allow greater freedom when nothing stands in the way of the mages abusing the new system, the Circle wasn't perfect but it prevented a second Imperium.

 

And the Jedi analogue doesn't grant me any comfort given how that Order spiraled into a self entitled mire of corruption in its final days. And then it's later version went much the same path, when you grant people of exceptional ability, privilege and resources and then move to remove they will combat that change, often with force.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Templars would have to at least check on a mage every set period of time. Think like a parole officer.

[BlueMagitek]

Since we're talking about Star Wars, don't forget that the Light & Dark Sides of the Force exist, with the Dark Side causing corruption as a literal cancer to the SWverse.  You can't really compare something like that to Thedas, which is currently lacking in such things.

[MisterJB]

Without being dragged too much into the argument, allow me to correct the misconception that mages can never leave the Circle unless in wartime.

We have seen plenty of Circle mages leave it for purposes other than participating in wars. Irving, Wynne is pretty much allowed to come and go, Finn, that botanist in Awakening, Bethany, the mage in Kirkwall who went to "meet a suitor" and was killed by Quentin; Rhys mentions being allowed to visit Val-Royeaux, etc.

Evidently, individual mages must prove themselves trustworthy enough but that is no unresonable.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Dude, Jedi and Sith are pretty much space mages and the Force is pretty much space magic. Both mages and Force users can become insane psychopaths. The temptation is strong. The parallel is uncanny.  

 

Mages don't need to be controlled. They needed to hold themselves responsible. They need a goal in where there's alternatives to being stuck in a Circle until wartime or death. I argue that this can be achieved through an organization in where the goal is to serve and peacekeep with no allegiances to no one individual or religion. It needs to be a system of checks and balances in where the power of the mages is monitored by both templars and mages together. 

 

There will always be evil mages but I'm willing to bet that 90% of them want to simply live their life in peace. This 90% can counter whatever 10%. that choose to wreck havoc on the world. 

 

In the DA world, we even have the advantage in where non-mages (templar) can also play a part in checking the abuse of power from mages. 

 

1.Not rly when they can turn into dark side and become selfish cases when they become insane are rare...

 

Not rly they need at least if non-mages want maintain own position or end as non-mages in tevinter and every attempt mages trying hold temselves ended badly with corrupted system that is magnet for disasters or just disaster on huge scale.So brainwashing them into "peace" philosophy won't help here...

 

naive peoples want power and better life more power they have more corrupted they become and more better life they want even at cost of others life as fenris said mages have too much power already tevinter proves that perfectly...

 

And no templars can't handle mages disasters at least when it will spread like blight.... thanks mages

[Master Warder Z_]

The Templars would have to at least check on a mage every set period of time. Think like a parole officer.

 

No need for such things when all mages for the most part are confined to the circle for the majority of the time.

[Savber100]

That doesn't exactly address my concerns however; You speak of Templar abuses what you don't speak of is how the influence of magic has been kept at bay in Thedas while the circles have operated. The mages do not dominate any facet of society, economy or religion. They cannot inherit titles, they cannot be involved in politics and they cannot own business or land.The point of this is obvious; the corruption of power exists outside of base physical abilities, You allow Mages to govern themselves, soon they will elect to govern the economy, and then the political world and then men.

 

You cannot just uncork the bottle, allow greater freedom when nothing stands in the way of the mages abusing the new system, the Circle wasn't perfect but it prevented a second Imperium.

 

And the Jedi analogue doesn't grant me any comfort given how that Order spiraled into a self entitled mire of corruption in its final days. And then it's later version went much the same path, when you grant people of exceptional ability, privilege and resources and then move to remove they will combat that change, often with force.

 

Well every organization will erode. It happens to even the most perfectly-laid plans. The question is how long can we maintain the peace? The Circle has failed. So we examine why and rebuild quickly. The biggest issue with the Old Circle is that it was too one-sided. 

 

I think you missed my redit. I further talked about how exactly the mages won't be free to do as they want. They would still be held in check. The only difference is that they have a stronger voice to prevent non-mage abuse. 

 

Mages want power for selfish gains? Let it be reviewed by the Divine who can veto it unless the Circle can override it with a 2/3 majority. 

 

Mages killing people? The Templar, the Divine, and the Inquisition will step in. 

 

Mages starting to become demon-infested monsters? Find out if it's the problem with the Mage Leadership through a study from his peers along with Inquistion and have the Divine hand-pick another Grand Enchanter if incompetence is discovered.

 

I mean obviously no one can create a perfect system but it's a load better than other extreme of just letting mages do whatever or the what we had before.

 

Without being dragged too much into the argument, allow me to correct the misconception that mages can never leave the Circle unless in wartime.

We have seen plenty of Circle mages leave it for purposes other than participating in wars. Irving, Wynne is pretty much allowed to come and go, Finn, that botanist in Awakening, Bethany, the mage in Kirkwall who went to "meet a suitor" and was killed by Quentin; Rhys mentions being allowed to visit Val-Royeaux, etc.

Evidently, individual mages must prove themselves trustworthy enough but that is no unresonable.

 

My apologies. I meant more in the sense of always been binded by the Circle. They can't never really leave it. Sure they can conduct business if proven trust-worthy but ultimately they must return to the Circle they came from or they get branded as maleficar. You know... like a prisoner on parole. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No need for such things when all mages for the most part are confined to the circle for the majority of the time.

I was talking about if the new solution has them not confined to the Circles but were actually allowed to wander and live their lives.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well every organization will erode. It happens to even the most perfectly-laid plans. The question is how long can we maintain the peace? The Circle has failed. So we examine why and rebuild quickly. The biggest issue with the Old Circle is that it was too one-sided. 

 

I think you missed my redit. I further talked about how exactly the mages won't be free to do as they want. They would still be held in check. The only difference is that they have a stronger voice to prevent non-mage abuse. 

 

Mages want power for selfish gains? Let it be reviewed by the Divine who can veto it unless the Circle can override it with a 2/3 majority. 

 

Mages killing people? The Templar, the Divine, and the Inquisition will step in. 

 

Mages starting to become demon-infested monsters? Find out if it's the problem with the Mage Leadership and have the Divine hand-pick another Grand Enchanter if incompetence is discovered.

 

I mean obviously no one can create a perfect system but it's a load better than other extreme of just letting mages do whatever or the what we had before.

 

 

I don't mind them having a firmer voice what i do take issue with is granting ultimate authority of the Templars and Seekers to the Divine; If anything the current Crisis proves that changes in leadership can cause issues with existing policies and stances. Ultimate Templar Authority should rest with the Seekers and while the Chantry should have a voice in the matter, it shouldn't be primary for their faction. In fact i'd argue that Keeping the Circle out of Chantry control is one of the few measures i'd agree with most pro mages with. Justina proved why its ultimately a bad idea; She crossed a line, Lambert disolved the accord and the mages under a short sided grand enchater marched to war.

 

The entire crisis can rightly be pointed at the Divine.

 

Moving along though; You propose weakening the measures that have kept magic contained, while as i said prior have issue with them maintaining a stronger position within the circle; The Mages should have no power beyond the circle. No titles, No Lands, No business, No stake in politics, Economy or Religion.

 

Furthermore there is nothing to suggest the Inquistion is anything more then a temporary measure to combat the current crisis; it likely will not be around to involve it self overly in the mage issue and it shouldn't, Its ultimately a responsibility that falls to the Templars. 

[Savber100]

I don't mind them having a firmer voice what i do take issue with is granting ultimate authority of the Templars and Seekers to the Divine; If anything the current Crisis proves that changes in leadership can cause issues with existing policies and stances. Ultimate Templar Authority should rest with the Seekers and while the Chantry should have a voice in the matter, it shouldn't be primary for their faction. In fact i'd argue that Keeping the Circle out of Chantry control is one of the few measures i'd agree with most pro mages with. Justina proved why its ultimately a bad idea; She crossed a line, Lambert disolved the accord and the mages under a short sided grand enchater marched to war.

 

The entire crisis can rightly be pointed at the Divine.

 

Moving along though; You propose weakening the measures that have kept magic contained, while as i said prior have issue with them maintaining a stronger position within the circle; The Mages should have no power beyond the circle. No titles, No Lands, No business, No stake in politics, Economy or Religion.

 

Furthermore there is nothing to suggest the Inquistion is anything more then a temporary measure to combat the current crisis; it likely will not be around to involve it self overly in the mage issue and it shouldn't, Its ultimately a responsibility that falls to the Templars. 

 

I would agree that the current Divine has done a crap job. She's too complacent. 

 

However I am willing to believe that a primary reason of the Circle's fall is due to bad leadership which is another issue within Thedas in where people of power simply are not held accountable for their decisions. 

 

You mentioned Justinia's action and that further points out the flaw of the old system in where the Divine and the Seekers of Truth simply have no power in checking the power of the Templars hence the back-handed channeling with the Divine's use of her agents. 
 

I believe the Divine can play a role as her voice commands respect from the populace. This is needed. She has no actual power to speak of but her influence is undeniable. So lets use her to promote a more sympathetic view of mages as a whole rather than one of fear. Lets use her influence and her agents to hold the Templars in check while dissuading extremism. Combine this with the martial arm of the Inquisition and it should help keep the peace. 

 

That said, I agree the Chantry should back off of the Circle. As I said, let them control themselves while being held back by the Templar, the Seekers, and the Inquisition. 

 

I agree that mages should not interfere in the country itself. They keep in their own circles and if they dabble in politics, it will be their own. 

 

As for the Inquisition. I daresay that organization is here to stay. I doubt it will simply fade when the dusts settled. 

[Jigglypuff]

Magic exists to rule man, and never to serve under him.

 

[Xilizhra]

Government without representation of the governed is not legitimate. If the Chantry purports to govern mages, then mages must be allowed into the Chantry government without discrimination.