645 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

Mages were among some of the nobility who governed the Dales, so it's unlikely there were Circles. Some Keepers are even descended from the nobility of the Dales. Magic is a gift of the Creators to the Elvhen, after all; not a curse.
As for the war, it depends on what happened. The Dalish and the elven Warden claim the inception of the war was the refusal of the elves to convert to the human religion, followed by an invasion of their sovereign territory; the humans say the elves started it by attacking Red Crossing. We don't know the truth at this point, and it's likely we never will.

You refusing to accept the word of the creators of the setting is not the same as us not knowing. The war started when the elves attacked Red Crossing.

[LobselVith8]

You refusing to accept the word of the creators of the setting is not the same as us not knowing. The war started when the elves attacked Red Crossing.

 

According to the Orlesian historical account, while the Dalish (and even the elven Warden) say the war happened because their kingdom was invaded as a result of the elves' refusal to convert. And since the developers never stated which historical account was correct, you're disingenuous in claiming that they said one was correct over the other.

[EmperorSahlertz]

According to the Orlesian historical account, while the Dalish (and even the elven Warden) say the war happened because their kingdom was invaded as a result of the elves' refusal to convert. And since the developers never stated which historical account was correct, you're disingenuous in claiming that they said one was correct over the other.

It is according to the word of god account in world of thedas.

[DKJaigen]

The red crossing made it an oficial war. But for the dalish it maybe already have been a war. fact is we dont know what happend before red crossing. But the fact is that Orlais was an aggresive expansionistic empire while dales where an isolationistic state that wanted nothing to do with humans . Its very likley Orlais or the chantry did something to dalish before red crossing

[BlueMagitek]

According to the Orlesian historical account, while the Dalish (and even the elven Warden) say the war happened because their kingdom was invaded as a result of the elves' refusal to convert. And since the developers never stated which historical account was correct, you're disingenuous in claiming that they said one was correct over the other.

 

I was not aware that we hold documented history of the victor to be less correct and more biased than oral history passed down by bitter racists who lost the conflict.

 

Also, what the protagonist says does not reflect what is happening.  The protagonist of the game is rarely bound by the same rules or restrictions as everyone else in the setting.

[Rotward]

You refusing to accept the word of the creators of the setting is not the same as us not knowing. The war started when the elves attacked Red Crossing.

The devs confirmed that? Origins had conflicting evidence. 

 

Saying that the history of the people who won is superior is silly, btw. The winner writes history, they can make it whatever they want, it's never accurate. 

[Mistic]

The red crossing made it an oficial war. But for the dalish it maybe already have been a war. fact is we dont know what happend before red crossing. But the fact is that Orlais was an aggresive expansionistic empire while dales where an isolationistic state that wanted nothing to do with humans . Its very likley Orlais or the chantry did something to dalish before red crossing

 

I'm of the same opinion. War is one thing, border skirmishes is another thing. That the war was official after the elves sacked Red Crossing doesn't mean there weren't problems before that. In fact, it would be strange otherwise.

[EmissaryofLies]

And yet another mage thread hi-jacked by the passionate elf haters/lovers brigade. 

How quaint. 

[Hellion Rex]

And yet another mage thread hi-jacked by the passionate elf haters/lovers brigade. 

How quaint. 

It does get rather old doesnt it, Scar.

[BlueMagitek]

And yet another mage thread hi-jacked by the passionate elf haters/lovers brigade. 

How quaint. 

It's kind of Lobs' thing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is not so much a brigade as it is just lobsel.

[Veruin]

It does get rather old doesnt it, Scar.

Wait, what?

[LobselVith8]

It is according to the word of god account in world of thedas.

 

World of Thedas doesn't address the Dalish historical account. It doesn't address that the Dalish don't share the same religious views as Andrastians on Spirits and Demons being the First Children of the Maker, and that they don't see Demons as Spirits who turned their backs on the Maker in jealousy over humanity, or their embodiment of different "sins". It doesn't address that the Dalish don't think any spirits are beneficial. Frankly, it doesn't really address a lot of things about the Elvhen perspective.

 

Overall, the World of Thedas never reads that the Dalish are wrong in their historical codex. If the attack on Red Crossing was in response to human incursion on their sovereign territory, that still doesn't invalidate the Dalish historical account on the fall of the Dales. The player doesn't know which historical account is accurate; both sides blame the other for the war.

 

I get that you favor the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, but there is absolutely no confirmation from the developers that the Dalish are wrong in claiming that the war started because of an incursion on their territory by the humans. Quite simply, we don't know the truth.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No it doesn't. It doesn't address the dalish account in the "word of god section"..... Wonder why..... Could it be because it is inaccurate? Who would've thunk it...........

[LobselVith8]

The red crossing made it an oficial war. But for the dalish it maybe already have been a war. fact is we dont know what happend before red crossing. But the fact is that Orlais was an aggresive expansionistic empire while dales where an isolationistic state that wanted nothing to do with humans . Its very likley Orlais or the chantry did something to dalish before red crossing

 

Which is the central problem. If templars were sent into the Dales as a response to the elves kicking out the missionaries, and the elves retaliated by attacking them at Red Crossing, then the Chantry historical account could claim that Red Crossing was the inception for the war, but that doesn't make it the case. In Origins, we're given two different historical accounts, and the player isn't in a position to know which one is true. I'm not certain why some pro-Chantry and pro-templar players have such an issue with this simple fact.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So the dalish attacked the unaffiliated town of red crossing to retaliate against the Templars?........ Yeah..... Then you can add "stupid" to list of qualities of the dalish....

[LobselVith8]

I was not aware that we hold documented history of the victor to be less correct and more biased than oral history passed down by bitter racists who lost the conflict.

 

Also, what the protagonist says does not reflect what is happening.  The protagonist of the game is rarely bound by the same rules or restrictions as everyone else in the setting.

 

The Dalish have oral and written history. It's addressed that some elven accounts are spoken, while others are written. Also, the elven protagonist verbally is expressing a historical account that's also addressed in the Dalish codex.

 

There are two sides to the story about the fall of the Dales. The player isn't in a position to invalidate either one. We can express an opinion to favor one account over the other, of course, but at this point in time, the developers have never said one is accurate or inaccurate.

[Rotward]

I was not aware that we hold documented history of the victor to be less correct and more biased than oral history passed down by bitter racists who lost the conflict.

 

Also, what the protagonist says does not reflect what is happening.  The protagonist of the game is rarely bound by the same rules or restrictions as everyone else in the setting.

Every andrastian human in the game is a racist, so that's a non-variable, and irrelevant. Oral history and written history are of different value only when the written history is objective. There's nothing objective in a victor writing history. Thus, there's no reason to attribute greater authority to the andrastian history, especially when they love their elven, mage, and tranquil slaves ever so much.

 

The second statement I find baffling. What are you basing that on? Sounds like you pulled it out of your ass. 

[LobselVith8]

No it doesn't. It doesn't address the dalish account in the "word of god section"..... Wonder why..... Could it be because it is inaccurate? Who would've thunk it...........

 

Unless you actually have one of the developers stating that the Dalish historical account is incorrect, you're not in a position to invalidate one over the other. The simple fact is, we don't know the truth. All we know is that there are two sides to the story.

 

 

So the dalish attacked the unaffiliated town of red crossing to retaliate against the Templars?........ Yeah..... Then you can add "stupid" to list of qualities of the dalish....

 

You don't know Red Crossing is unaffiliated. Again, neither one us knows the truth about what happened to start the war.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Written history is ALWAYS more valuable. At least with written history you can establish the bias of the author, and only extract the valuable information. With oral history you have no way of knowing what is contemporary or what is a later addition.

[Veruin]

The game "telephone" should tell you enough of how reliable oral history is.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Every andrastian human in the game is a racist, so that's a non-variable, and irrelevant. Oral history and written history are of different value only when the written history is objective. There's nothing objective in a victor writing history. Thus, there's no reason to attribute greater authority to the andrastian history, especially when they love their elven, mage, and tranquil slaves ever so much.

 

The second statement I find baffling. What are you basing that on? Sounds like you pulled it out of your ass. 

I wouldn't say EVERY Andrastian human is a racist. There's been a few that are ahead of the curve in tolerance and equal rights.

[Hellion Rex]

Wait, what?

You didn't see Emissary of Lies' avatar? Scar? From Lion King?

[Veruin]

You didn't see Emissary of Lies' avatar? Scar? From Lion King?

I saw it was a lion, but I didn't know what it was from.

[The Elder King]

Every andrastian human in the game is a racist, so that's a non-variable, and irrelevant. Oral history and written history are of different value only when the written history is objective. There's nothing objective in a victor writing history. Thus, there's no reason to attribute greater authority to the andrastian history, especially when they love their elven, mage, and tranquil slaves ever so much.
 
The second statement I find baffling. What are you basing that on? Sounds like you pulled it out of your ass.

That's as true as saying that every dalish is racist towards humans.
Hint: not every dalish is racist.