645 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

According to the Orlesian historical account, while the Dalish (and even the elven Warden) say the war happened because their kingdom was invaded as a result of the elves' refusal to convert. And since the developers never stated which historical account was correct, you're disingenuous in claiming that they said one was correct over the other.

World of Thedas, which is the writers' objective stance on the matter, says the war started with the elves attacking Red Crossing. No one is saying there wasn't border tension before that, or that such tension was irrelevant, but when it comes down to who started the war?

The Elves did.

[The Elder King]

He killed how many main characters again that didn't magically pop up alive again?
 
That's right Least i killed the ****ers.

Yeah, I thought I wrote 'in Konoha'. My mistake.

Good idea. Some of the discussions are getting a bit circular. I'm honestly not of the opinion that there's much common ground that can be reached for the templars and mages who want the complete opposite of the other, so it would depend on the leaders in question. If the leadership for the mages and the templars I'm reaching out to is more moderate, it could be possible. However, it's also a question of the protagonist I'm playing as, as well as the racial background I've chosen (and whether or not my character is a mage).

I agree that it'd depend on the type of character I'm roleplaying (my canon would try a compromise approach though).
Even in the case they have opposite goals, the current danger is too big for them to ignore it. I'm not saying that they should make peace, but a temporary truce might be possible. They don't have to fight together either, jus concentrating on the current world-threatening problem.

[BlueMagitek]

Aww, we were getting along!

[Master Warder Z_]

World of Thedas, which is the writers' objective stance on the matter, says the war started with the elves attacking Red Crossing. No one is saying there wasn't border tension before that, or that such tension was irrelevant, but when it comes down to who started the war?

The Elves did.

 

The Grand Moff speaks the truth.

[TK514]

Trying to go back on topic (sort of), in the case the war between mages and templars won't end in DAI, and you can exist the help of mages and templars, who would try to streake a ceasefire and enlist both?

Absolutely. I believe the war was started by demagogues on both sides working for their own selfish reasons rather than for the good of those they claim to represent. Absent those individuals, I believe both sides actually prefer a more moderate stance overall, and would seek to find it.

[LobselVith8]

It's called "logic".

Red Crossing is an orlesian town. The Templars mentioned, if they existed, were soldiers of the Chantry.

Therefore, Red Crossing is unaffiliated with them.

 

In other words, you're speculating.

 

World of Thedas, which is the writers' objective stance on the matter, says the war started with the elves attacking Red Crossing. No one is saying there wasn't border tension before that, or that such tension was irrelevant, but when it comes down to who started the war?

The Elves did.

 

Actually, World of Thedas and the developers never wrote that the Dalish account of the fall of the Dales was wrong; it's simply not addressed, along with a plethora of other issues about the Dalish and the myriad of elven groups that arose from the schism of the elves after the defeat of the Dales. As I said before, the player isn't in a position to know the truth. We don't know who is right, and who is wrong.

 

When you come across information that says otherwise, feel free to include it here. Until that happens, we're going to have a circular discussion where I'm expected to acquiesce to speculation on the matter.

[Hellion Rex]

The Grand Moff speaks the truth.

Nobody liked Tarkin anyways.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Actually, World of Thedas and the developers never wrote that the Dalish account of the fall of the Dales was wrong; it's simply not addressed, along with a plethora of other issues about the Dalish and the myriad of elven groups that arose from the schism of the elves after the defeat of the Dales. As I said before, the player isn't in a position to know the truth. We don't know who is right, and who is wrong.

 

When you come across information that says otherwise, feel free to include it here. Until that happens, we're going to have a circular discussion where I'm expected to acquiesce to speculation on the matter.

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' in this case. Both Orlais and the Dales were trapped in a cycle of mistrust and hatred which resulted in the outbreak of war. 

 

But since this a Mage thread, can we get back to talking about Mages?

[LobselVith8]

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' in this case. Both Orlais and the Dales were trapped in a cycle of mistrust and hatred which resulted in the outbreak of war. 

 

But since this a Mage thread, can we get back to talking about Mages?

 

The debates do remind me of how it would be like for Lambert's templars and the independent mages to try to get along, during the possible peace talks that were addressed by the Elder King. The sharp contrast between the two would be so great, it makes me think that a compromise or armistice might be next to impossible. Unless the leaders of the respective groups are in the vein of Greagoir and Irving.

[Xilizhra]

The debates do remind me of how it would be like for Lambert's templars and the independent mages to try to get along, during the possible peace talks that were addressed by the Elder King. The sharp contrast between the two would be so great, it makes me think that a compromise or armistice might be next to impossible. Unless the leaders of the respective groups are in the vein of Greagoir and Irving.

Pole-up-rectum tyrant and conniving toady, respectively? I'd prefer not, to be frank.

 

The one thing absolutely vital for any negotiation to work is that the templars must stop chasing the mages and stand down... which leads me to believe that the mages will have to negotiate with the Chantry and deal with the templars the old-fashioned way.

[MisterJB]

In other words, you're speculating.

 

Nope.

Red Crossing - Orlais.
Templars - Chantry.

Orlais is not the Chantry.

 

It's that simple. If you want to claim that that particular town was, somehow, part of the Chantry, then the burden of proof falls on you.

[LobselVith8]

Pole-up-rectum tyrant and conniving toady, respectively? I'd prefer not, to be frank.

 

The one thing absolutely vital for any negotiation to work is that the templars must stop chasing the mages and stand down... which leads me to believe that the mages will have to negotiate with the Chantry and deal with the templars the old-fashioned way.

 

Or they will have to reach out to the Inquisitor and the newfound Inquisition, instead of Divine Justina V and the Andrastian Chantry.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Pole-up-rectum tyrant and conniving toady, respectively? I'd prefer not, to be frank.

 

The one thing absolutely vital for any negotiation to work is that the templars must stop chasing the mages and stand down... which leads me to believe that the mages will have to negotiate with the Chantry and deal with the templars the old-fashioned way.

Why would they talk to the Chantry? The Templars and Seekers left it.

[Silfren]

Not rly we don't know how tevinter was dealing with mages or even if demons were threat then or even how things were working...

Yeah first tevinter and their march on black city yeah thanks for blight as*****

 

 

I've asked you this before and you've never once actually addressed it, which makes me think that you never bothered to think it through. So I'mm ask it again, and hope you'll address it for once.

 

One of your points has been to acknowledge the rather critical necessity of mages for the Joiining ritual that creates Grey Wardens.  You have also acknowledged that mages in general are useful against the darkspawn.

 

Knowing that mages are rare, and that there does NOT appear to be a purely genetic component to being born a mage, how feasible do you think it would actually be to implement a generally wholesale policy of killing all but a small handful of existing mages, and extending the same not-quite-total policy of genocide against all new mages as they are found? 

 

I seriously don't think you've thought that through at all.  If mages are not just handy, but absolutely necessary, for fighting Blights, then just how realistic would it be to kill most mages while maintaining a small set number for that circumstance?  Mages tend to have limited lifespans just like everyone else, and they are an extremely small percentage of the total population, with *no* way to predict when and to whom they will be born.  Just how exactly do you plan to implement a policy of killing nearly all of them but keeping a certain few on hand for maintaining the ability to even create the Joining ritual at all, and on maintaining this adequate population at all times, given that there is also no way to know when the next Blight will occur, or when there will simply be an exceptionally large darkspawn raid?  Or any time that the Qunari might happen to attack, given that mages are undeniably helpful in repelling Qunari assaults?

 

And how do you plan to hope that of the small percentage of mages who are allowed to live, there are sufficiently powerful ones available from the existing number to even fight for you in the first place?  There's no way to predict that either, and less opportunity if you have a general policy of killing most of them outright anyhow.  Tad bit of irony there: the weakest mages, those who can barely manage to light a candle, pose the least threat to the world and would thereby have the greatest reason in their favor to not be culled, are the ones who also would be of the least benefit in serving as a military force when needed. 

 

Finally, how do you plan to account for the fact that instituting this kind of a policy is going to create a system in which even more people are inclined to hide mages within their population, and what mages are allowed to live are going to be that much more poised to rebel.  Or the fact that certain groups, i.e. the Grey Wardens, since this new policy will make mages an even more precious commodity, will be pushed into more direct opposition to groups which would enforce it?  Or, as was already said, those societies which will recognize that this policy will provide an automatic military advantage to any faction which decides to offer mages an alternative. 

[TK514]

Actually, World of Thedas and the developers never wrote that the Dalish account of the fall of the Dales was wrong; it's simply not addressed, along with a plethora of other issues about the Dalish and the myriad of elven groups that arose from the schism of the elves after the defeat of the Dales. As I said before, the player isn't in a position to know the truth. We don't know who is right, and who is wrong.
 
When you come across information that says otherwise, feel free to include it here. Until that happens, we're going to have a circular discussion where I'm expected to acquiesce to speculation on the matter.

This is absurd. They don't have to address the Dalish version to say 'the war started when the elves attacked Red Crossing'. They're outright stating that the war started when the Elves attacked Red Crossing. This is not ambiguous. No other account needs to be addressed to know when the war started and who started it. This is not speculation. This is history as presented by the developers. You know, the people who created the history? The only ones in a position to tell us what actually happened, and provided the information for a book that does exactly that?

I get it, you're an elven fanatic and you hate that your head canon about the elves never being responsible for their own failings is shattered by the harsh realities of the setting, but you're objectively wrong. The Elves started the war that left them homeless vagabonds, and no matter how much you would like to blame Orlais, or a man who had been dead for decades before the war started, you will never be right as long as BioWare considers WoT the final word.

The onus is on you to prove WoT wrong, and unless you can find me developer quotes that states WoT is not the objective word on the subjects it discusses, that is impossible.

[Xilizhra]

Or they will have to reach out to the Inquisitor and the newfound Inquisition, instead of Divine Justina V and the Andrastian Chantry.

Or that.

 

 

Why would they talk to the Chantry? The Templars and Seekers left it.

I presume the Chantry doesn't want to remain in ruins, and if the mages will help them rebuild and wipe out the embarrassment of the renegade templars, it could be an enticing enough offer, and get more of the nonmage world on the mage side.

 

Also, in my opinion, who started the war is irrelevant. What matters is that Orlais and the Chantry inflicted genocide upon the elves, wiped out their nation, imprisoned quite a few in cities and forced them to convert, and they will be held accountable for all of this.

[The Elder King]

Also, in my opinion, who started the war is irrelevant. What matters is that Orlais and the Chantry inflicted genocide upon the elves, wiped out their nation, imprisoned quite a few in cities and forced them to convert, and they will be held accountable for all of this.

I doubt they will, or that you have the option to hold them responsible for what happened. Unless Orlais is forcibly annihilated without any option for the player to choose its fate.

[Master Warder Z_]

 

Also, in my opinion, who started the war is irrelevant. What matters is that Orlais and the Chantry inflicted genocide upon the elves, wiped out their nation, imprisoned quite a few in cities and forced them to convert, and they will be held accountable for all of this.

 

I HONESTLY, Like STRONGLY, Like TRULY BELIEVE.

 

That Lunacy ain't gonna happen.

 

._.

 

Pleasant day dream though ain't it?

[Xilizhra]

I doubt they will, or that you have the option to hold them responsible for what happened. Unless Orlais is forcibly annihilated without any option for the player to choose its fate.

Holding out for that, truth be told.

 

 

I HONESTLY, Like STRONGLY, Like TRULY BELIEVE.

 

That Lunacy ain't gonna happen.

 

._.

 

Pleasant day dream though ain't it?

We shall see. But you can't deny it'd be a nice change of pace from kicking elven clans who are already down.

[The Elder King]

Holding out for that, truth be told.


.

So far the hints are more about us choosing the new ruler, so I doubt it's going to happen. And I'd prefer if the rising of the new elven state isn't based on the destruction of a human one, since I fear it'd lead to its subsequent destruction.

[Master Warder Z_]

We shall see. But you can't deny it'd be a nice change of pace from kicking elven clans who are already down.

 

Change of Pace? Perhaps, Nice? Debatable given its up to personal preference and perspective.

 

I'm of the mind that the elves need to stop resisting personally, handing them a puppet nation for services rendered to Orlais is more my style then letting them having some kind of revenge for their own idiotic declaration of war on their betters.

[LobselVith8]

Nope.

Red Crossing - Orlais.
Templars - Chantry.

Orlais is not the Chantry.

 

It's that simple. If you want to claim that that particular town was, somehow, part of the Chantry, then the burden of proof falls on you.

 

The Orlesian Empire was created by Kordillus Drakon to create an empire under worship of the Maker, and he established the Chantry from the Cult of the Maker that he followed. The Chantry of Andraste is so intertwined with Orlais that Loghain and Maric discussed dissolving it. I'm not certain what your point is in trying to insinuate that the two are completely distinct from one another when the history of Thedas proves otherwise, or even that the idea that templars would be stationed in an Orlesian town is somehow implausible.

 

This is absurd. They don't have to address the Dalish version to say 'the war started when the elves attacked Red Crossing'. They're outright stating that the war started when the Elves attacked Red Crossing. This is not ambiguous. No other account needs to be addressed to know when the war started and who started it. This is not speculation. This is history as presented by the developers. You know, the people who created the history? The only ones in a position to tell us what actually happened, and provided the information for a book that does exactly that?

I get it, you're an elven fanatic and you hate that your head canon about the elves never being responsible for their own failings is shattered by the harsh realities of the setting, but you're objectively wrong. The Elves started the war that left them homeless vagabonds, and no matter how much you would like to blame Orlais, or a man who had been dead for decades before the war started, you will never be right as long as BioWare considers WoT the final word.

The onus is on you to prove WoT wrong, and unless you can find me developer quotes that states WoT is not the objective word on the subjects it discusses, that is impossible.

 

World of Thedas never stated that the Dalish account was wrong. It never stated whether or not there was an incursion of their kingdom by the neighboring humans. As far as human society is concerned, Red Crossing is where it began, but WoT never delves into the nuances of the inception of the war. That's not proof that shows whether or not the Dalish or the Orlesians are correct.

 

What's the point with your snide remarks, anyway? Why are you taking this so personally to the point of attacking me?

 

There's no burden of proof on me to disprove your speculation on the matter, since I'm not the one claiming that either side is correct. Unless you're going to point out that World of Thedas states that the Dalish account is incorrect, or a quote from one of the developers that the Dalish account is inaccurate, there's really little point to this discussion.

[Xilizhra]

So far the hints are more about us choosing the new ruler, so I doubt it's going to happen. And I'd prefer if the rising of the new elven state isn't based on the destruction of a human one, since I fear it'd lead to its subsequent destruction.

If The Masked Empire goes in some gratuitously destructive direction with this as so many other lesbian relationships have in most forms of media, and in literally all of them for Dragon Age, I will be... extremely, burningly peeved.

 

 

Change of Pace? Perhaps, Nice? Debatable given its up to personal preference and perspective.

 

I'm of the mind that the elves need to stop resisting personally, handing them a puppet nation for services rendered to Orlais is more my style then letting them having some kind of revenge for their own idiotic declaration of war on their betters.

I'm beginning to think that the best solution is to scale up Anders' bomb, to be frank. This is more for the mages than the elves, but, while it's good at destroying buildings, imagine the sort of pull the rebellion could have if we could take out entire cities at once...

[EmissaryofLies]

Why do the templars hate popsicles? Is this established in the lore?

[Master Warder Z_]

So far the hints are more about us choosing the new ruler, so I doubt it's going to happen. And I'd prefer if the rising of the new elven state isn't based on the destruction of a human one, since I feat it'd lead to his subsequent destruction.

 

Personally H?

 

I think the only elven state we will ever see will be remiencent of Dol Blathanna otherwise known as the valley of flowers in the Witcher.

 

It's an elven puppet state under the Empire of Nifgaard. It was given to them for their service to the Empire during their initial invasion of the nothern kingdoms. It has its own Monarchy, elven rulers, land holders and everything, but ultimately it exists as a vassal to the Empire and Emperor.

 

I could see something similar occuring for the Dalish if they actually ever wised up and joined their hand with Humanities.