645 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

In DA:O's "Broken Circle" we see that not only mages can be possessed, but also the templars. So fighting the mages is fighting a symptom. It's not a cure for the main problem: The demons of the Fade.

And what is point demons were summoned by uldred (mage) and then "possessed" templars as they were only mind-controled by demons

You assume that mages are required for a possession. That's not true. According to the lore, mages are more susceptible because they draw power from the Fade. However, when the Veil is thin it allows easier passing. That seems to be the main ingredient of DA:I.

[Angarma]

Honestly, I believe the Isolationist goal is the most balanced solution.

Just send escorted mages to somewhere distant, like the Uncharted Territories, the Sea of Ash or the Donarks.
Those who survive the trip will have to struggle to live, but if they do, there shouldn't be much fear of persecution.

Such a segregated, magically adept, but restricted colony - governed without Chantry or Qunari supervision, would
be great to hear about. Especially now that the Mage-Templar war has started and the Isolationists have been set free.

[Rotward]

This whole thread is based on a series of bad logic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Inprea wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It didn't. It showed boith sides of magic.
Unfortunately, being a mage in DA comes with some very hefty downsides.

Also, as far as I can gather, not every mage is capable ofmasteringeverything, and healing is a skill few mages are capable of.

I'm going to call bull crap. DA has done a horrible job of showing both sides of magic. We have Uldred's rebellion, the darkspawn supposedly, Conner, the sickness caused by the Tivinter mages and slaving, the demons at soldier's peak, the baroness in black marsh (spelling?) and other issues all showing the dangers of magic.

How many things do we have showing the benefits of magic? Those few cases we do have are of mages trying to fix problems caused by other mages which only makes it look like the world would be better off without magic.

What proof do you have that creation magic is any more difficult to learn then primal other then the writers doing a poor job of representing mages trained in such craft?

I'm calling bullcrap on your bullcrap.

We have been shown things like mages making magical artifacts, offering healing and aid in war.
You probably think there should be more. Like mages should be making floating cities,ending world hunger and such.
However, what makes you think any of that is even possible?
What makes you think that your view is how the devs see the world of thedas and mages?
In other words, your view on the balance of upsides and downsides and limits of magic may not reflect how TheDas works.

[KaiserShep]

In DA2, both the mages and templars were occupied with crazy/evil. Varric pretty much said what I was thinking in the end.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 08 février 2014 - 07:18 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

KaiserShep wrote...

In DA2, both the mages and templars were occupied with crazy/evil. Varric pretty much said what I was thinking in the end.

Yep, though that was the point of the game. They wanted to show both sides at their worst. Perhaps to level the playing field in people preferring one over the other, or simply to show neither side is the 'good side'.

[TheKomandorShepard]

fhs33721 wrote...


Well over the course of two games and some novels we had quite a few insantces where demons caused harm without mage-assistance of any sorts, so it can not be that rare.  For example we had:
The elven orphanage were demons crossed thanks to Arl Howes random slauhgter of children.
Lady Harriman selling her family to a Desire Demon although she wasn't a mage
Demons in Bartrands estate after he experimented with red lyrium and tortured his servants.
The possessed dwarven king/noble in "the calling". Im quite sure he wasn't a mage.
Also the primeveal Thaig was swarming with demons although I doubt there were many mages around since it is a dwarfen thaig.

Second to the bolded part: Well the last time I checked Revenants are capable of slaughtering  whole squads of templars easily. It even says that in their codex.
Also shades can be extremely powerful. Like the one that was sealed away under Vigils keep. They are supposed to be abe to suck the life out of their victims from the shadows without even being noticed. Just because they are often used as trash-mobs during gameplay doesn't mean that they are weak -lore wise. And even if you think that, then I have to remind you that abominations are used as trash-mobs as well.

Therefore no I don't agree that abominations are universially more dangerous than any other demonic being.

Not even close to abomnations or demons that mages summoned...
1.Yep you are right here...
2.Not rly she was either mage just well hidden (i doubt very in that) or just encountered sealed demon underground as we know that kirkwall was once used by tevinter mages who were sealing demons in some places we can even fight such demons. 
3.Red lyrium is not known substance so it was unique situation and red lyrium need to be removed forever...
4.I can't tell here much about that because i didn't read this book but outisde mage influence dwarf couldn't be possesed unless demon escapes thanks to thin veil so either it was summoned by mage for example tevinter or just meet sealed demon we can even find such case in behlen palace where demon was sealed or pirde demon sealed on deep roads... giving good relations that dwarven empire had with first tevinter empire it isn't surprising.
5.As i said tev was once in good relations with dwarves.


6-7-i never said that they were weak i just said that they are far from abomnation... and yes abomnations are stronger because they have magic mixed with demon abilities power also in such case demon can return to orginal shape then you are screwd...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

In
DA:O's "Broken Circle" we see that not only mages can be possessed, but
also the templars. So fighting the mages is fighting a symptom. It's
not a cure for the main problem: The demons of the Fade.

And
what is point demons were summoned by uldred (mage) and then "possessed"
templars as they were only mind-controled by demons

You
assume that mages are required for a possession. That's not true.
According to the lore, mages are more susceptible because they draw
power from the Fade. However, when the Veil is thin it allows easier
passing. That seems to be the main ingredient of DA:I.

Everything can be possesed if we asume that demon crossed veil it can be rock , tree or non-mage but only mage is portal for demon when it is still in the fade...

[Master Warder Z_]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Is there an actual way in Thedas for Mages to exist in the world while living a quality of life that is equivalent to those of non-mages, therefore minimizing the threat of revolution? Can people co-exist within an uneasy peace or is this just a pipe dream that can never happen?

Unforunately it is.

You cannot have such a clear and present danger to well...every one for all time with out it being recognized for what it is.

So its a pipe dream if a plesant one.

[Inprea]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm calling bullcrap on your bullcrap.

We have been shown things like mages making magical artifacts, offering healing and aid in war.
You probably think there should be more. Like mages should be making floating cities,ending world hunger and such.
However, what makes you think any of that is even possible?
What makes you think that your view is how the devs see the world of thedas and mages?
In other words, your view on the balance of upsides and downsides and limits of magic may not reflect how TheDas works.

Really? When did we see mages offering healing and aid in war? You make a clame but you don't bother noting any examples. Even then I highly doubt they would have the same influence as the examples of disasters I noted thus it makes magic look far more destructive then beneficial.

I sure didn't see Wynne over in the tints at Ostagar healing the wounded soldiers. Which is pretty strange given that she's one of the circle's main healers. All we see is the mages keeping to their camp. As for the making of magical items. How often do we see those actually benefiting anyone?

What makes me think it's possible for mages to make floating cities? I don't. That's you trying to put words into my mouth.

We see that mages can heal illness and influence plants. The only thing that might be uncertain in what I said is if they can conjure water or not though the creation tree has the conjuring oil slicks and the primal tree inclundes influencing the temperature. So I don't consider conjuring water a large stretch.

If you're going to make a contradictory claim how about noting some actual examples or other supporting evidence that hasn't already been mentioned? Anyone can make groundless statements after all.

[Master Warder Z_]

Inprea wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm calling bullcrap on your bullcrap.

We have been shown things like mages making magical artifacts, offering healing and aid in war.
You probably think there should be more. Like mages should be making floating cities,ending world hunger and such.
However, what makes you think any of that is even possible?
What makes you think that your view is how the devs see the world of thedas and mages?
In other words, your view on the balance of upsides and downsides and limits of magic may not reflect how TheDas works.

Really? When did we see mages offering healing and aid in war? You make a clame but you don't bother noting any examples. Even then I highly doubt they would have the same influence as the examples of disasters I noted thus it makes magic look far more destructive then beneficial.

I sure didn't see Wynne over in the tints at Ostagar healing the wounded soldiers. Which is pretty strange given that she's one of the circle's main healers. All we see is the mages keeping to their camp. As for the making of magical items. How often do we see those actually benefiting anyone?

What makes me think it's possible for mages to make floating cities? I don't. That's you trying to put words into my mouth.

We see that mages can heal illness and influence plants. The only thing that might be uncertain in what I said is if they can conjure water or not though the creation tree has the conjuring oil slicks and the primal tree inclundes influencing the temperature. So I don't consider conjuring water a large stretch.

If you're going to make a contradictory claim how about noting some actual examples or other supporting evidence that hasn't already been mentioned? Anyone can make groundless statements after all.

You know just from my perspective?

There is little magic can do to redeem it self within DA given its history.

Unleashing the Blights has permenantly turned it into a sour thing at least to me.

[windsea]

Mages are dangerous in too many way to be killed off, as so i they start trying to kill them a war will break out like we are going to see in DA:I but even if normals do kill all the mages and make it policy to kill any mages on sight that would lead to more demon possessions, go to a tower is one thing but dying is completely different and mages will be lead right into the open arms of the demons because of it.

[cjones91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Inprea wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm calling bullcrap on your bullcrap.

We have been shown things like mages making magical artifacts, offering healing and aid in war.
You probably think there should be more. Like mages should be making floating cities,ending world hunger and such.
However, what makes you think any of that is even possible?
What makes you think that your view is how the devs see the world of thedas and mages?
In other words, your view on the balance of upsides and downsides and limits of magic may not reflect how TheDas works.

Really? When did we see mages offering healing and aid in war? You make a clame but you don't bother noting any examples. Even then I highly doubt they would have the same influence as the examples of disasters I noted thus it makes magic look far more destructive then beneficial.

I sure didn't see Wynne over in the tints at Ostagar healing the wounded soldiers. Which is pretty strange given that she's one of the circle's main healers. All we see is the mages keeping to their camp. As for the making of magical items. How often do we see those actually benefiting anyone?

What makes me think it's possible for mages to make floating cities? I don't. That's you trying to put words into my mouth.

We see that mages can heal illness and influence plants. The only thing that might be uncertain in what I said is if they can conjure water or not though the creation tree has the conjuring oil slicks and the primal tree inclundes influencing the temperature. So I don't consider conjuring water a large stretch.

If you're going to make a contradictory claim how about noting some actual examples or other supporting evidence that hasn't already been mentioned? Anyone can make groundless statements after all.

You know just from my perspective?

There is little magic can do to redeem it self within DA given its history.

Unleashing the Blights has permenantly turned it into a sour thing at least to me.

It redeemed itself when magic became a major component in fighting the Blights as well.There areas magic can be used for good and to argue otherwise is to be foolish.

Modifié par cjones91, 08 février 2014 - 08:31 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

windsea wrote...

Mages are dangerous in too many way to be killed off, as so i they start trying to kill them a war will break out like we are going to see in DA:I but even if normals do kill all the mages and make it policy to kill any mages on sight that would lead to more demon possessions, go to a tower is one thing but dying is completely different and mages will be lead right into the open arms of the demons because of it.

not rly when they are dead

cjones91 wrote...

It redeemed itself when magic became a
major component in fight the Blights as well.There areas magic can be
used for good and to argue otherwise is to be foolish.

Yeah i set my city on fire and i helped save ashes im redeemed! im messiah!

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 février 2014 - 08:31 .

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Inprea wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm calling bullcrap on your bullcrap.

We have been shown things like mages making magical artifacts, offering healing and aid in war.
You probably think there should be more. Like mages should be making floating cities,ending world hunger and such.
However, what makes you think any of that is even possible?
What makes you think that your view is how the devs see the world of thedas and mages?
In other words, your view on the balance of upsides and downsides and limits of magic may not reflect how TheDas works.

Really? When did we see mages offering healing and aid in war? You make a clame but you don't bother noting any examples. Even then I highly doubt they would have the same influence as the examples of disasters I noted thus it makes magic look far more destructive then beneficial.

I sure didn't see Wynne over in the tints at Ostagar healing the wounded soldiers. Which is pretty strange given that she's one of the circle's main healers. All we see is the mages keeping to their camp. As for the making of magical items. How often do we see those actually benefiting anyone?

What makes me think it's possible for mages to make floating cities? I don't. That's you trying to put words into my mouth.

We see that mages can heal illness and influence plants. The only thing that might be uncertain in what I said is if they can conjure water or not though the creation tree has the conjuring oil slicks and the primal tree inclundes influencing the temperature. So I don't consider conjuring water a large stretch.

If you're going to make a contradictory claim how about noting some actual examples or other supporting evidence that hasn't already been mentioned? Anyone can make groundless statements after all.

You know just from my perspective?

There is little magic can do to redeem it self within DA given its history.

Unleashing the Blights has permenantly turned it into a sour thing at least to me.

It redeemed itself when magic became a major component in fighting the Blights as well.There areas magic can be used for good and to argue otherwise is to be foolish.

From your perspective.

To me?

Unleashing the end of the world isn't so easily forgiven.

[Hellion Rex]

Master Warder Z wrote...
From your perspective.

To me?

Unleashing the end of the world isn't so easily forgiven.

Considering Thedas is still standing, it hardly seems like the world is gonna end any time soon.

[cjones91]

Then by that logic we should destroy all guns today because it has caused billions of people to die,the reason that won't happen is because it's stupid.Magic is like guns today,let the right people wield it and good things can happen...let the crazies/evil people do the same thing and bad things will happen

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
From your perspective.

To me?

Unleashing the end of the world isn't so easily forgiven.

Considering Thedas is still standing, it hardly seems like the world is gonna end any time soon.

Two Archdemons left and who knows how many Darkspawn are left in the wings beyond them.

:/

Even if the world never "ends" its going to be an issue for an unfathomable amount of time.

But then i view them the Dwarves as a valuable resource beyond merely being a Darkspawn buffer; That's me.

And i would agrue "standing" is subjective considering the damage blights have unleashed upon specific nations.

[TheKomandorShepard]

cjones91 wrote...

Then by that logic we should destroy all guns today because it has caused billions of people to die,the reason that won't happen is because it's stupid.Magic is like guns today,let the right people wield it and good things can happen...let the crazies/evil people do the same thing and bad things will happen

Yeah with that diffrence that technology doesn't have own mind so can be controled mages can't because they are ticking bombs of insanity.... yeah deal with that avoiding that modern technology in many ways would crush magic like hulk would little puppy... 

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Then by that logic we should destroy all guns today because it has caused billions of people to die,the reason that won't happen is because it's stupid.Magic is like guns today,let the right people wield it and good things can happen...let the crazies/evil people do the same thing and bad things will happen

One clear and present difference freind.

This is a Feudalistic setting and back then?

Our Species actually knew how to conclude its business.

With the pointy end of a broad sword.

[cjones91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Then by that logic we should destroy all guns today because it has caused billions of people to die,the reason that won't happen is because it's stupid.Magic is like guns today,let the right people wield it and good things can happen...let the crazies/evil people do the same thing and bad things will happen

One clear and present difference freind.

This is a Feudalistic setting and back then?

Our Species actually knew how to conclude its business.

With the pointy end of a broad sword.

And you think Thedas will be a better place without magic?Hell no,you will still have your Arl Howes who will kill or oppress people in order to gain power.You will still have people dying from disease or being poor except this time they won't have magic as a convenient scapegoat.

Unlike some people I believe magic can do some good and to throw it away because bad people use it?It reeks of ignorance.

Modifié par cjones91, 08 février 2014 - 08:52 .

[cjones91]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Then by that logic we should destroy all guns today because it has caused billions of people to die,the reason that won't happen is because it's stupid.Magic is like guns today,let the right people wield it and good things can happen...let the crazies/evil people do the same thing and bad things will happen

Yeah with that diffrence that technology doesn't have own mind so can be controled mages can't because they are ticking bombs of insanity.... yeah deal with that avoiding that modern technology in many ways would crush magic like hulk would little puppy... 

All it takes is one person having a bad day or being crazy to grab a gun and shoot dozens of people so what's your point?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@Master Warden Z

You have to admit blaming all those who have magical powers for the actions of a few Tevinter Magisters simply because they used magic as a means to enter the Golden City and release the Darkspawn threat is awfully generalizing. That's like saying "A few nobles are using their power to rape people. We should kill or castrate all nobles."

[TheKomandorShepard]

cjones91 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Then by that logic we should destroy all guns today because it has caused billions of people to die,the reason that won't happen is because it's stupid.Magic is like guns today,let the right people wield it and good things can happen...let the crazies/evil people do the same thing and bad things will happen

Yeah with that diffrence that technology doesn't have own mind so can be controled mages can't because they are ticking bombs of insanity.... yeah deal with that avoiding that modern technology in many ways would crush magic like hulk would little puppy... 

All it takes is one person having a bad day or being crazy to grab a gun and shoot dozens of people so what's your point?

Yeah so we comparing small gun to insane destruction machine like abomnation or creating plauge nahhh you can't be serious...

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

@Master Warden Z

You have to admit blaming all those who have magical powers for the actions of a few Tevinter Magisters simply because they used magic as a means to enter the Golden City and release the Darkspawn threat is awfully generalizing. That's like saying "A few nobles are using their power to rape people. We should kill or castrate all nobles."

It's not a baseless generalization but i do admit it is a generalization.

Its just all Mages have capacity for horrors far beyond those not cursed with magic.

Sure Humans can commit their own horror stories with out and do so within our own reality, but they do not become posssed at the drop of a hat due to exhaustion or lack of willpower.

But of course you know this.

Point of it is though, Plain old Humans are restricted in the ways they commit horror stories, they stick to tried and true and mostly realistic means. They cannot seize control of your mind or blast people away with a blast of kinetic energy.

So my point is.

Mages are dangerous, more so beyond their magic because as history as shown they are still subject to the vices and stupidity of their species.

And thus they cannot be trusted with powers beyond the majority of their species.

Its a conclusion i have shared with people on several threads here, Mages are no more then walking, ticking time bombs and should be treated as such.

Or beheaded.

Their choice really.

[fhs33721]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



Not even close to abomnations or demons that mages summoned...
1.Yep you are right here...
2.Not rly she was either mage just well hidden (i doubt very in that) or just encountered sealed demon underground as we know that kirkwall was once used by tevinter mages who were sealing demons in some places we can even fight such demons. 
3.Red lyrium is not known substance so it was unique situation and red lyrium need to be removed forever...
4.I can't tell here much about that because i didn't read this book but outisde mage influence dwarf couldn't be possesed unless demon escapes thanks to thin veil so either it was summoned by mage for example tevinter or just meet sealed demon we can even find such case in behlen palace where demon was sealed or pirde demon sealed on deep roads... giving good relations that dwarven empire had with first tevinter empire it isn't surprising.
5.As i said tev was once in good relations with dwarves.


6-7-i never said that they were weak i just said that they are far from abomnation... and yes abomnations are stronger because they have magic mixed with demon abilities power also in such case demon can return to orginal shape then you are screwd...

2. Okay fair point. Still even if you kill all mages, those sealed demons will still continue to cause trouble for thedas since they do not miraciously dissapear.
3. Well my point still stands. Demons invded the estate without being summoned by a mage. Red lyrium might be the cause for that or as Mage-Hawke can commented it might have been due to the torture Bartrand inflicted on his mercenaries and servants. Either way demons were able to cross the veil without mages.
4. There was apparently a battle with darkspawn going on before the demon possesed the dwarf so it is likely that the veil just teared due to bloodshed.
5. While they had good reltionships with dwarves I doubt that Tevinter magisters were hanging around in every dwarf outpost and ripped the veil apart for fun. It could also have something to do with red lyrium. I actually agree with you on red lyrium definitely being dangerous and needing to be removed.
6. I think it largely depends on how powerful the demon is to begin with. A weak little demon of wrath can posess a mage and it will still be no more threat than a pack of wild wolves for example. A powerful pride or desire abomination are indeed a very big threat. The same way there are Shadows and walking corpses who are far more powerful than the ordinary one. So while yes, abominations are on average more dangerous that is not a universal truth. It depends on the demon.

On an unrelated note:
I still think claims about the danger of an abomination are blown out of proportion. So they can lay waste to an entire village full of peasants, before someone takes them out? Wow impressing. A group of about twenty heavyly armoured knights could pull that one off.
Seriously is there the mention of any abomination that actually made it past destroying the unprepeared place were it was summoned before getting stopped? Because I can't remember if we heard of anything like that.

I mean so far the only unstoppable eldritch abomination of death and destruction I've seen in the Dragon Age Unsiverse were our player-charcters.
I mean seriously they can slaughter trough hundreds of warriors, demons and Darkspawn without getting as much as scratch. It's truly scary.