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The reason why Mages still exist & where to go from here?


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#126
TheKomandorShepard

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dragonflight288 wrote...


I never mentioned Thrask, and Lambert didn't stop conflict, he helped create a massive international war. 

I call that a total and utter failure.


Yes but your comment was so cheap with use power of love and all your problems will vanish so i pointed thrask who used your method and lambert who was successful.

Well not rly to be honest lambert ended mage-templar war before it started by winning then divine came and attacked him and freed mages in her stupidity causing mage-templar war....  

#127
Loraella

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 I don't think mage genocide is even a real option. The Chant of Light in parts tells of the Maker's love for all his creations as well as his hatred for those who dare harm even the lowest of his creation without provocation. Mages are as much the Maker's children and obviously were created with intent to fill a purpose. You may think mages rebelling from poorly managed circles could qualify as provocation and maybe the Maker would agree. I would not want to risk his wrath though especially knowing what happened last time someone did. 

For the longest time time mages have had no purpose or fulfillment or meaning to their lives. Suddenly they are thrust into a position where they do and I don't think they will be giving it up easily and I honestly hope they do not give up. It is long over due. Do not get me wrong I don't hope for Tevinter 2.0. I hope for a world where they own what they are and the danger their gift brings as well as their responsibility to play a positive role in the world.

#128
TheKomandorShepard

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Loraella wrote...

 I don't think mage genocide is even a real option. The Chant of Light in parts tells of the Maker's love for all his creations as well as his hatred for those who dare harm even the lowest of his creation without provocation. Mages are as much the Maker's children and obviously were created with intent to fill a purpose. You may think mages rebelling from poorly managed circles could qualify as provocation and maybe the Maker would agree. I would not want to risk his wrath though especially knowing what happened last time someone did. 

For the longest time time mages have had no purpose or fulfillment or meaning to their lives. Suddenly they are thrust into a position where they do and I don't think they will be giving it up easily and I honestly hope they do not give up. It is long over due. Do not get me wrong I don't hope for Tevinter 2.0. I hope for a world where they own what they are and the danger their gift brings as well as their responsibility to play a positive role in the world.


Not rly many belivers would chop mages gladly other part won't care and we have very small group of peoples who will want do something about but difference between want and can is huge... We don't even know whether maker exist and even if he is real chantry portray him as big douche and absent god so he wouldn't care...

Someone created topic what class you would want to be very little choosed mage simple being mage sucks it isn't even half worthy penalties for being mage in da world.So mages can do very little when it comes about helping mostly they will do damage as abomnation or humans deal with it...

#129
Lotion Soronarr

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TK514 wrote...
The reason the Templars and Tranquil are the agents of the Mage Enclaves ties into the indoctrination aspect of 'you can't miss what you don't know'. While obviously, some mages will remember the outside world, removing the temptation would be a big aspect of total quarantine.


Curiosity.
A powerfull thing my friend.


Interesting but to me it's still people being imprisoned in a nation
that doesn't want them just because of how they were born. I'm still
very much an isolationist. If people don't want mages walking around
their streets that's fine. The circle system or even one like yours
wouldn't bother me if there was one exception. The mages could choose to
exile themselves to a nation that welcomes free mages, an island that
no nation claimed or a place far enough away from civilization.


That would require everyone trusting mages to create their own nation and lead it responsibly.


Fiona wouldn't have been successful if Lambert hadn't intervened and
announce that the Divine's authority was no longer applicable to him.
He specifically said that at the meeting. And with wynne's death and
most of the First Enchanters dead as a result of his actions, no one was
around who would've talked Fiona down. 

Everyone in the novel
says that Wynne could've convinced the others to vote against it, and
had done so successfully twice before. That changed as a direct result
of Lamberts actions.


His actions?
Lambert was trying to stop the bloody mess.
He was full within his right to stop the metting, given the murders going around and the suspects involved. Even moreso given that the issue to discuss was not the one they were supposed to be having.
So yes, he was fully justified in marchign with with a bunch of templars, and arresting the murder suspects.
One mage died there, but it was not because of Lambert.
At no point did he want to kill anyone.

He was heavy-handed, but given his responsibiity and the MURDERS and a DEMON loose and the conclave talking treason, you kinda can't really fault him.
Kirkwall..was a massive fiasco for everyone involved.



Anf b.t.w. - what's with all of talk about killing all mages? That was never anyones plan. Not even Alariks.

#130
Inprea

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Interesting but to me it's still people being imprisoned in a nation
that doesn't want them just because of how they were born. I'm still
very much an isolationist. If people don't want mages walking around
their streets that's fine. The circle system or even one like yours
wouldn't bother me if there was one exception. The mages could choose to
exile themselves to a nation that welcomes free mages, an island that
no nation claimed or a place far enough away from civilization.


That would require everyone trusting mages to create their own nation and lead it responsibly.


That ship has already came and gone. It's called Tevinter and it's the  longest lasting human nation to date. I don't agree with your notion  that it would require everyone to trust the mages either. The Rivaini  seems to have no issue trusting their seers and the Dalish have no issues with their keepers. All it would take for those regions is the templars to respect the peoples, and I'm not even talking the mages here, right to self determination. Well that or an organization powerful enough to make the templars respect the Rivaini right to govern themselves. I don't know what things where like for the Rivaini before the chantry but I haven't seen any proof that locking up their mages has improved the average person's quality of life in the least. It might have even made it worse.

I also have to question your definition of a nation. I'm not certain how many mages they actually are but I wouldn't expect much more then a city state if a large one.

Why should trust even be a factor? That's kind of the point of moving far away from civilization. The templars don't trust the mages so they'd be going far away. If the mages were trusted the templars wouldn't even be needed.

Modifié par Inprea, 12 février 2014 - 02:01 .


#131
Mistic

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It's interesting to see that few people have tried to think of a solution for Inquisition. Mostly, I've seen theoretical discsussions. Pretty interesting. But what about the game itself?

The Inquisitor won't be facing any theoretical scenario. Also, there Mage-Templar War is not the only conflict he or she will have to face, and the end of the world is near. So, what can the Inquisitor do? Realistically speaking.

(Still wondering how those rings (Circle, Templars, Seekers) in the promotional images fit into all that)

#132
Anvos

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Thing is at this point determining what the Inquisitor/Inquisition will do beyond seeking to end the Veil Tears is just as much theory crafting.

Though if possible I'm likely telling the White DIvine, we now support the Black Divine.

#133
Inprea

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Misticsan wrote...

It's interesting to see that few people have tried to think of a solution for Inquisition. Mostly, I've seen theoretical discsussions. Pretty interesting. But what about the game itself?

The Inquisitor won't be facing any theoretical scenario. Also, there Mage-Templar War is not the only conflict he or she will have to face, and the end of the world is near. So, what can the Inquisitor do? Realistically speaking.

(Still wondering how those rings (Circle, Templars, Seekers) in the promotional images fit into all that)


I believe to be completely pro-templar or pro-mage will require us to do some truly horrible things as I'm sure they'll be good mages and good templars. We may for example come upon a town in which the people have welcomed the mages amongst them and the mages have been being helpful. Curing sickness, helping with the fields, shocking angry bears and wolves that sort of thing. The people will want to keep the mages and be willing to defend them and going pro templar would mean murdering good people.

On the flip side I'm sure we're going to encounter a group of mages that are using, "They forced me!" As justification to do absolutely horrible things. I'm thinking like the Baroness in blackmarsh that was sacrificing children to sustain her beauty.

Hm what happens when we find a good mage that been forced to do horrible things by a noble? I doubt mages are the only vane noble that wants to sustain their youth at any cost.

I even wonder if the Inquisitor will really be able to determine how the war ends. It's not her job after all. I wouldn't be surprised if the most we can do in terms of the big picture is influence the tone of the conflict. We could either orient it more towards compromise and talk or more towards violence and bloodshed. The solution could even end up being regional.

In one region the mages may gain their freedom no matter what. We just determine if it's by convincing the templars to leave or a huge bloody conflict and leaves the veil even weaker in that area. In another region the templars may win regardless of our actions.

Modifié par Inprea, 12 février 2014 - 02:54 .


#134
The Baconer

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That would require everyone trusting mages to create their own nation and lead it responsibly.


Well, Orlesian nobles are still allowed to exist so I don't think this would be too much of a stretch.

#135
MisterJB

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Inprea wrote...
Why should trust even be a factor? That's kind of the point of moving far away from civilization. The templars don't trust the mages so they'd be going far away. If the mages were trusted the templars wouldn't even be needed.

Trust the mages to not interfere with the established nations; trust the mages to not pass their problems along to their neighbors; trust the mages to not want to expand their borders; etc.
Tevinter is actually a good example of why people don't trust mages to lead a nation.

#136
Inprea

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MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Why should trust even be a factor? That's kind of the point of moving far away from civilization. The templars don't trust the mages so they'd be going far away. If the mages were trusted the templars wouldn't even be needed.

Trust the mages to not interfere with the established nations; trust the mages to not pass their problems along to their neighbors; trust the mages to not want to expand their borders; etc.
Tevinter is actually a good example of why people don't trust mages to lead a nation.


That doesn't require them to trust the mages. That just requires them to trust in their own miiltary strength and the distance between the mages and other settlements to act as a buffer. Even then it wouldn't require the entire nation to trust them. Simply the nation they're neighboring.

Given the relatively low birth rate of mages I'd be more concerned with expanding nations trying to push the mages from their home in a century or two. Unlike Tevinter this is meant to be a location where mages govern mages.

I really don't get how people can talk about how massive a threat the mages pose and then say the templars could contain them without the mages consent.

#137
TheKomandorShepard

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Inprea wrote...



I really don't get how people can talk about how massive a threat the mages pose and then say the templars could contain them without the mages consent.


Abomnation is threat not mage mage is in great danger of becoming one so thats why they are dangerous...

#138
Uccio

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The whole idea is just retarded. Do people seriously believe that parents would let their children to be slaughtered just becase they are mages? Anyone thinking so seriously underrestimates parental feelings. In no time people would flee with their children so that templars could not get their hands on them. A revolt would also be very possible. Tevinter probably would intervene militarily since such action clearly would be directed against them, sooner or later.

Modifié par Ukki, 12 février 2014 - 04:16 .


#139
TheKomandorShepard

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Ukki wrote...

The whole idea is just retarded. Do people seriously believe that parents would let their children to be slaughtered just becase they are mages? Anyone thinking so seriously underrestimates parental feelings. In no time people would flee with their children so that templars could not get their hands on them. A revolt would also be very possible. Tevinter probably would intervene militarily since such action clearly would be directed against them, sooner or later.


Yep many will do that if it is done corretly some may go against but many won't.... it is not that is uncommon in thedas that mages are thrown out families just because they are mages and most is fine with that...

And tev don't give a crap as long they aren't attacked or their power isn't threatened it was said many times that tevinter mages don't want circle mages because they are threat and competition for them.

#140
Uccio

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I would say that most families would not act that way. The number of apostates running around is a good indicator. Espesially when genoside is advocated. It's one thing to send your child to circle than let templars butcher him/her. Tevinter would probably take interest of such politics, being mages themselves.

#141
TheKomandorShepard

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Ukki wrote...

I would say that most families would not act that way. The number of apostates running around is a good indicator. Espesially when genoside is advocated. It's one thing to send your child to circle than let templars butcher him/her. Tevinter would probably take interest of such politics, being mages themselves.


It is common for mage being kicked out of family.We have so many apostates because
1)templars do their joob poorly and mages aren't captured and mages constantly escape from circles...
If peoples will fear punishment and think about mages as monsters they will easier let us do that...

Tevinter won't care they aren't liked in thedas any way and they don't care as long they live comfortably...

#142
MisterJB

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Inprea wrote...
That doesn't require them to trust the mages. That just requires them to trust in their own miiltary strength and the distance between the mages and other settlements to act as a buffer.

The two are not mutually exclusive and prevention is always preferable. Even if I believe I am capable of subduing someone I don't know, I would still have to trust in the character of that person before I allowed them into my home.

Even then it wouldn't require the entire nation to trust them. Simply the nation they're neighboring.

Nations can and do affect more than just their neighbors.

Given the relatively low birth rate of mages I'd be more concerned with expanding nations trying to push the mages from their home in a century or two.

 In a century or two, the infrastructure of Thedas would be so completely dominated by magic that the nobles and kinds would have little to no power and revolution would be as pointless as trying to revolt against electricity nowadays.

Unlike Tevinter this is meant to be a location where mages govern mages.

Not only is there no guarantee that it will stay that way, there is still the danger of that nation influencing the politics of other countries.

I really don't get how people can talk about how massive a threat the mages pose and then say the templars could contain them without the mages consent.

Just because something can be contained, it doesn't mean that something wouldn't pose a massive threat under different circumstances.

#143
Br3admax

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I feel really sorry for the eventual nonmage children born in this hypothetical country. Bullying at a whole new level.

#144
Inprea

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MisterJB wrote...
The two are not mutually exclusive and prevention is always preferable. Even if I believe I am capable of subduing someone I don't know, I would still have to trust in the character of that person before I allowed them into my home.


You're not inviting them into your home they'd be moving away rather then being imprisoned for life by a law that descriminates against them.

MisterJB wrote..
Nations can and do affect more than just their neighbors.


Not all change is bad. To quote Morrigan, People fear change but at times that is what sets them free. Depending on the power of the nation the influence can be very subtle. The most drastic change being if the mage state did well other mages would leave the nations that don't want them to begin with and travel there.

MisterJB wrote..
 In a century or two, the infrastructure of Thedas would be so completely dominated by magic that the nobles and kinds would have little to no power and revolution would be as pointless as trying to revolt against electricity nowadays.


That is you speculating. I could just as well say that the circle mages will eventually discover the high magic of old and a new mage empire will be born so long as they are new mages born every day. That the templars are just a delaying tactic doomed to fail before the tide of nature.

MisterJB wrote..
Not only is there no guarantee that it will stay that way, there is still the danger of that nation influencing the politics of other countries.


Just because something might fail doesn't mean that it's not worth trying. From what I've seen the circle system has failed in that instead of protecting mages all it's done is force them to desperate action and produce more abominations then it prevented. In DA:O the only noncircle mage I remember seeing go abomination was part of the mage's collective and the only person it killed was his own mentor who tried to stop it. How many circle mages did we see turn abomination?

MisterJB wrote..
Just because something can be contained, it doesn't mean that something wouldn't pose a massive threat under different circumstances.


Except they can't be contained. The mage's collective and other apostates have always existed and then there is the Imperium. I wonder where the templars where when the Baroness of blackmarsh was sacrificing children. From what I've seen the templars only do a good job of containing the law abiding mages and killing the weak ones or children.

All this talk only makes me want dragon age inquisition more though. Once that arrives we'll see which view point brings about the best outcome hopefully. I just hope they're not scared to make some people upset.

Modifié par Inprea, 12 février 2014 - 07:08 .


#145
Inprea

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Br3ad wrote...

I feel really sorry for the eventual nonmage children born in this hypothetical country. Bullying at a whole new level.


You mean like what young mages suffer at the hands of templars? It's a shame bioware didn't show what the children at the gallows went through.

#146
MisterJB

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Inprea wrote...
You're not inviting them into your home they'd be moving away rather then being imprisoned for life by a law that descriminates against them.

You'd be lifting the guard placed around them which increases their potential to harm others.
And the law does not discriminate. It accounts for the differences between normal people and mages.

Not all change is bad.

Allowing yourself to be influenced by another is bad, period.

To quote Morrigan, People fear change but at times that is what sets them free.

How would this set anyone but mages free?

Depending on the power of the nation the influence can be very subtle.

Just as bad or worse.
 

The most drastic change being if the mage state did well other mages would leave the nations that don't want them to begin with and travel there.

I can think of plenty of other drastic changes.

That is you speculating.

That is true.

Just because something might fail doesn't mean that it's not worth trying. From what I've seen the circle system has failed in that instead of protecting mages all it's done is force them to desperate action and produce more abominations then it prevented. In DA:O the only noncircle mage I remember seeing go abomination was part of the mage's collective and the only person it killed was his own mentor who tried to stop it. How many circle mages did we see turn abomination?

 One Abomination in Redcliff killed dozens of people and nearly destroyed the city.
Dozens of Abominations in the Circle were contained and not a single one escaped to threaten the civilians outside the Circle.
Therefore, I feel confident in claiming that the system works. If the system works in keeping the people safe, then yours must be even more effective in order for it to be considered. And sending mages far away and hope for the best does not seem a very reliable plan to me.

Except they can't be contained. The mage's collective and other apostates have always existed and then there is the Imperium. I wonder where the templars where when the Baroness of blackmarsh was sacrificing children. From what I've seen the templars only do a good job of containing the law abiding mages and killing the weak ones or children.

There have been failures but just because one or two particularly powerful mages or organized groups manage to escape containment, that doesn't mean the Templars are not effective. For instance, they destroyed the mage underground in Kirkwall.

#147
Mistic

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Anvos wrote...

Thing is at this point determining what the
Inquisitor/Inquisition will do beyond seeking to end the Veil Tears is
just as much theory crafting.


True. I'm starved for more information :(

Inprea wrote...

I even wonder if the Inquisitor will really be able to determine how the war ends. It's not her job after all. I wouldn't be surprised if the most we can do in terms of the big picture is influence the tone of the conflict. We could either orient it more towards compromise and talk or more towards violence and bloodshed. The solution could even end up being regional.


That would make sense. But as I said, those images with the rings...

It's said that the Seekers and the Templars were born from the Inquisition, when it joined the Chantry. My two cents is that maybe the Inquisitor will have to reunite those factions again to face the Veil Tears and, according to the rings, that includes the Circle of Mages too. But perhaps it's wishful thinking.

By the way, a pity we can't visit Tevinter in DA:I. Much has been told about the dangers of magic, but I think two different dangers must be differentiated: power abuse and unchecked abominations. Tevinter is a proof of the first danger, but NOT of the second one. So far, it's not a barren hell populated by demons and abominations, so alternatives to White Chantry Circles exist and are equally effective. That's why I think the main problem would be how to stop mages from abusing their powers to take control, not the abomination danger

#148
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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I don't know which of these have been mentioned in pages 2-5, but...

A: The Orlesian Chantry apparently uses mages for a religiously symbolic flame in the Cathedral.

B: The Tevinters, Qunari, and darkspawn all have and use mages. (The second one not as well as they could, but during their first attack on Kirkwall centuries before the events of Origins they captured the city with magic.) Tell me exactly why the Qun, or the White and Black Chantries, would give up this military asset when the alternative is to be fireballed to death with little or no way to defend themselves.

C: Mages are apparently either necessary or merely useful in the Joining. If you haven't played Origins, just know making it difficult is only a good idea if the benefit is preventing a potential apocalypse, and making it impossible is a complete non-option.

D: Logistics. Mages have some incentive to cooperate with the current system, and even so the Templars miss a good number of them and meet resistance frequently. An extermination policy would not help either of these issues.

Misticsan wrote...

Tevinter is a proof of the first danger, but NOT of the second one. So far, it's not a barren hell populated by demons and abominations, so alternatives to White Chantry Circles exist and are equally effective. That's why I think the main problem would be how to stop mages from abusing their powers to take control, not the abomination danger


Gaider has stated that Tevinter uses the same system the White Chantry does, only with Magisters (who are powerful, and the powerful mages seem less likely to get possessed) given somewhat more freedom. So, that's actually evidence that the Circle system is the best plan, since a country ruled by mages doesn't seem to think it a good idea for them to be left to their own devices. (Though I'll note that arguing that we don't know Tevinter not to be an abomination infested hell doesn't really work logically, since as you say we know next to nothing about it. That's also why Rivain, which really does have an alternative system to the Circles, isn't good evidence for your point.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 février 2014 - 08:25 .


#149
Inprea

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MisterJB wrote...
You'd be lifting the guard placed around them which increases their potential to harm others.
And the law does not discriminate. It accounts for the differences between normal people and mages.


Given that some circles are housed in major cities I strongly disagree. In those cases you'd be diminishing their ability to harm others by putting some distance between them. The distance between them and potential victims would diminish the threat and it'd make the mages safer from abuse at the hands of templars.

Descriminate: make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of
different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race,
sex, or age.

Yes the mages are being descriminated against based on their race.

MisterJB wrote...
Allowing yourself to be influenced by another is bad, period.


You mean like how the templars influence the mages? You know. Taking their children from them, locking them away for life, forcing them to fight a demon to the death. By your own statement the mages allowing the templars to influence them is bad.

MisterJB wrote...
How would this set anyone but mages free?


With the mages in an isolated region there would be less of a need for templars. They wouldn't need to continue poisoning themselves with lyrium use and slowly destroying their own minds. They could then devote themselves to other chantry friendly tasks such as hunting bandits. There was one templar that was well liked because he'd take some time from his patrols and go check outlying farms. They'd have more time for such activities.

MisterJB wrote...
Just as bad or worse.


For someone who's so fearful of others influence you'd think you'd sympathize with the mages not wanting the chantry's laws forced on them or even the Rivaini's people desire to keep their seers or the Dalish desire to keep their keepers. Double standard?
 

MisterJB wrote...
I can think of plenty of other drastic changes.


How many of them wouldn't be your speculation?

MisterJB wrote...
 One Abomination in Redcliff killed dozens of people and nearly destroyed the city.
Dozens of Abominations in the Circle were contained and not a single one escaped to threaten the civilians outside the Circle.
Therefore, I feel confident in claiming that the system works. If the system works in keeping the people safe, then yours must be even more effective in order for it to be considered. And sending mages far away and hope for the best does not seem a very reliable plan to me.


Can you prove that was the templars doing? Uldred didn't seem to be making a major push for an escape as he was busy torturing the mages the templars failed to protect and some surviving templars. It was Wynne and a few of the mages preventing the demons from reaching the doors. I see that as the templars being saved by a few benevolent mages while the templars ran and hid.

What about the people who were inside the tower at the time?

MisterJB wrote...
There have been failures but just because one or two particularly powerful mages or organized groups manage to escape containment, that doesn't mean the Templars are not effective. For instance, they destroyed the mage underground in Kirkwall.


As well as turn some of their own against them and make the remaining mages more desperate helping to bring about a war even going so far as to sick death squads on the people they're suppose to protect. I wasn't going to bring up DA2 but as you brought it up. How many people do you believe were killed by those circle mages? Especially during the fighting in the streets.

Plus if you want to use DA2 to argue why templars are effective I may as well yes mage Hawke, Anders and Merrill to argue why they aren't. Cullen must be freaking blind not to notice Merrill and especially Anders. Even my warrior Hawke had the elf blood mage walking around with her.

Modifié par Inprea, 12 février 2014 - 08:24 .


#150
The Hierophant

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Inprea wrote...

Yes the mages are being descriminated against based on their race.

No they are not. A mage usually isn't a member of a seperate race like Dwarves elves.