645 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

Inprea wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
 One Abomination in Redcliff killed dozens of people and nearly destroyed the city.
Dozens of Abominations in the Circle were contained and not a single one escaped to threaten the civilians outside the Circle.
Therefore, I feel confident in claiming that the system works. If the system works in keeping the people safe, then yours must be even more effective in order for it to be considered. And sending mages far away and hope for the best does not seem a very reliable plan to me.

Can you prove that was the templars doing? Uldred didn't seem to be making a major push for an escape as he was busy torturing the mages the templars failed to protect and some surviving templars. It was Wynne and a few of the mages preventing the demons from reaching the doors. I see that as the templars being saved by a few benevolent mages while the templars ran and hid.

What about the people who were inside the tower at the time?

I wouldn't really use what happened in Ferelden as a good example in any way. In fact, both groups were pretty useless. Power-hungry madmen turn to blood magic and abominations to start chaos. Mages fail. Despite some good mages resisting, the templars' only alternative is to pruge the Circle... despite not having enough men and the country being in the middle of a civil war and a Blight, so they would never get the reinforcements needed to contain the situation.

Thank the Maker (or the Creators, or the Stone) for the Warden.

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
Given that some circles are housed in major cities I strongly disagree. In those cases you'd be diminishing their ability to harm others by putting some distance between them. The distance between them and potential victims would diminish the threat and it'd make the mages safer from abuse at the hands of Templars.

The mages would have the freedom to harm potential victims. They could just walk to where they are.
With the Templars, they can't because they'll stop them.

Descriminate: make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of
different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race,
sex, or age.

Yes the mages are being descriminated against based on their race.

It's not unjust because their condition means they present a greater danger to the survival of their fellow citizens. They are not the same and is, therefore, not unjust to not treat them as if they are.

You mean like how the templars influence the mages? You know. Taking their children from them, locking them away for life, forcing them to fight a demon to the death. By your own statement the mages allowing the templars to influence them is bad.

Bad for them, certainly.

With the mages in an isolated region there would be less of a need for templars. They wouldn't need to continue poisoning themselves with lyrium use and slowly destroying their own minds. They could then devote themselves to other chantry friendly tasks such as hunting bandits. There was one templar that was well liked because he'd take some time from his patrols and go check outlying farms. They'd have more time for such activities.

Thus reducing the capability normal people would have to protect themselves form insidious influence or just plain violence from these freed mages.

For someone who's so fearful of others influence you'd think you'd sympathize with the mages not wanting the chantry's laws forced on them or even the Rivaini's people desire to keep their seers or the Dalish desire to keep their keepers. Double standard? 

I've chosen a side as have you. I am arguing for what is best for the side I chose and that is normal people.
 

How many of them wouldn't be your speculation?

Prediction based upon observation of the world is an acceptable method.

Can you prove that was the templars doing? Uldred didn't seem to be making a major push for an escape as he was busy torturing the mages the templars failed to protect and some surviving templars. It was Wynne and a few of the mages preventing the demons from reaching the doors. I see that as the templars being saved by a few benevolent mages while the templars ran and hid.

The simple fact this occurred in an isolated location as opposed to what would have happened had Uldred became a Pride Abomination in the middle of a city means lives were saved. And if Uldred was busy turning mages that means he felt he couldn't just overwhelm the Templars with the numbers they had.

What about the people who were inside the tower at the time?

Tragic but there were not much as there would be had it occurred in a city and mages are not as defenseless.

As well as turn some of their own against them and make the remaining mages more desperate helping to bring about a war even going so far as to sick death squads on the people they're suppose to protect. I wasn't going to bring up DA2 but as you brought it up. How many people do you believe were killed by those circle mages? Especially during the fighting in the streets.

If we are going to claim the Templars made the mages "desperate" enough to kill, then I can just as easily claim the mages made the Templars desperate enough to form those death squads.
Altough I'd agree putting a Circle in a city is a bad idea.

Plus if you want to use DA2 to argue why templars are effective I may as well yes mage Hawke, Anders and Merrill to argue why they aren't. Cullen must be freaking blind not to notice Merrill and especially Anders. Even my warrior Hawke had the elf blood mage walking around with her.

Gameplay limitations. Obviously, Mage Hawke should have been arrested the moment s/he used magic in front of Cullen.

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...
The mages would have the freedom to harm potential victims. They could just walk to where they are.
With the Templars, they can't because they'll stop them.

LIke they stopped Jowan? Who is considered one of the weaker mages.

MisterJB wrote...
It's not unjust because their condition means they present a greater danger to the survival of their fellow citizens. They are not the same and is, therefore, not unjust to not treat them as if they are.

They're not the same as us so it's okay to strip them of their rights. You're not much into civil rights are you?

MisterJB wrote...
Bad for them, certainly.

So by your standard, that you should never let someone influence you, the mages should do whatever it takes to maintain their independence as it's bad according to you to let someone influence you.

MisterJB wrote...
Thus reducing the capability normal people would have to protect themselves form insidious influence or just plain violence from these freed mages.

That's your speculation. I on the other hand believe that the distance between the mage settlement and those who don't wish mages living amongst them would provide both groups greater protection.

MisterJB wrote...
I've chosen a side as have you. I am arguing for what is best for the side I chose and that is normal people.

Well what we believe is best. Dragon Age Inquisition will hopefully say who is right.
 

MisterJB wrote...
Prediction based upon observation of the world is an acceptable method.

Except we have no real mages or super humans to observe for actual data. I do however have something to bring to the table. Researchers at Stanford found using a virtual reality helmet that when a person was impowered virtually they tended to behave in a more social responsible manner. It seems that impowering someone, rather then giving them power over another person, promotes social responsibility.

So based on that I would say the average mage is going to be more socially responsible then your average templar or mundane.

http://www.smithsoni...ulness-9022619/

MisterJB wrote...
The simple fact this occurred in an isolated location as opposed to what would have happened had Uldred became a Pride Abomination in the middle of a city means lives were saved. And if Uldred was busy turning mages that means he felt he couldn't just overwhelm the Templars with the numbers they had.

Not true. Uldred could have just as well believed that he can kill the templars at any time and he was having fun turning the other mages because he's a sadistic ass. There is no need to rush if he's confident in his power and as he said he's having fun.

MisterJB wrote...
Tragic but there were not much as there would be had it occurred in a city and mages are not as defenseless.

So Redclif serves as an example of why mages must be confined and the deaths at the circle are just tragic?

MisterJB wrote...
If we are going to claim the Templars made the mages "desperate" enough to kill, then I can just as easily claim the mages made the Templars desperate enough to form those death squads.
Altough I'd agree putting a Circle in a city is a bad idea.

I said more desperate. The point being that the destruction of the mage underground was not a shining success for the templars. It could have even been like removing the pressure valve from a boiler.

MisterJB wrote...
Gameplay limitations. Obviously, Mage Hawke should have been arrested the moment s/he used magic in front of Cullen.

There is also the issue that the templars couldn't solve the murders, recognize Dupree was a mage or find out what was happening to their recruits without Hawke. Perhaps the reason the templars were able to destroy the mage underground is because they decided to walk around with signs that read mage with big arrows on them. As given how often they needed Hawke's help it's amazing they were able to almost destroy the mage underground.

[themageguy]

Remember, the average person in thedas isn't usually witness to magic.
Also, mages provide enchantments and healing, not just destruction.

[dragonflight288]

Not true. Uldred could have just as well believed that he can kill the templars at any time and he was having fun turning the other mages because he's a sadistic ass. There is no need to rush if he's confident in his power and as he said he's having fun.

I'm going to interject into this part of your guys's debate.

I feel that I should point out that the Uldred we bump into is not the same Uldred who we saw at Ostagar who was saying the beacon was unnecessary. Loghain made a deal with Uldred, Uldred took his case before the Circle and the Circle, and I assume the templars as well, were about to align with Loghain when Wynne returned and told Irving that Loghain abandoned Cailan on the field, and Irving called a meeting to confront Uldred.

At that meeting, Uldred in desperation as he was about to be judged by his fellow mages, summoned a bunch of blood mages in to buy him time and ended up possessed as he summoned demons as a way to resist judgement by the Circle itself. The Uldred we see torturing and turning mages into abominations is not Uldred but nothing more than a Pride Demon possessing him.

As he says it, "I am Uldred and NOT Uldred. I am more than he was."

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Inprea wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Gameplay limitations. Obviously, Mage Hawke should have been arrested the moment s/he used magic in front of Cullen.

There is also the issue that the templars couldn't solve the murders, recognize Dupree was a mage or find out what was happening to their recruits without Hawke. Perhaps the reason the templars were able to destroy the mage underground is because they decided to walk around with signs that read mage with big arrows on them. As given how often they needed Hawke's help it's amazing they were able to almost destroy the mage underground.

I thought the issue with the Templars failing to catch the serial killer was because Quentin was able to hide behind his status as a noble.

[Hellion Rex]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Inprea wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Gameplay limitations. Obviously, Mage Hawke should have been arrested the moment s/he used magic in front of Cullen.

There is also the issue that the templars couldn't solve the murders, recognize Dupree was a mage or find out what was happening to their recruits without Hawke. Perhaps the reason the templars were able to destroy the mage underground is because they decided to walk around with signs that read mage with big arrows on them. As given how often they needed Hawke's help it's amazing they were able to almost destroy the mage underground.

I thought the issue with the Templars failing to catch the serial killer was because Quentin was able to hide behind his status as a noble.

When was it ever said that Quentin was a noble?

Edit: Gascard was the noble, not Quentin.

Modifié par eluvianix, 13 février 2014 - 01:11 .

[Inprea]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Inprea wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Gameplay limitations. Obviously, Mage Hawke should have been arrested the moment s/he used magic in front of Cullen.

There is also the issue that the templars couldn't solve the murders, recognize Dupree was a mage or find out what was happening to their recruits without Hawke. Perhaps the reason the templars were able to destroy the mage underground is because they decided to walk around with signs that read mage with big arrows on them. As given how often they needed Hawke's help it's amazing they were able to almost destroy the mage underground.

I thought the issue with the Templars failing to catch the serial killer was because Quentin was able to hide behind his status as a noble.

I recall a letter where he buttered Meredith up but I don't believe being a noble alone was enough. As you recall there is at least one mage who's the son of a noble that Meredith was going to have executed unless Hawke speaks on his behalf.

There is also, I believe her name is Avalena , the mage who saved the orphans that the templars didn't know as a mage until she turned herself in. At which time the templars cut off the orphans only means of support. Not exactly the most humanitarian act.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Inprea wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Inprea wrote...

There is also the issue that the templars couldn't solve the murders, recognize Dupree was a mage or find out what was happening to their recruits without Hawke. Perhaps the reason the templars were able to destroy the mage underground is because they decided to walk around with signs that read mage with big arrows on them. As given how often they needed Hawke's help it's amazing they were able to almost destroy the mage underground.

I thought the issue with the Templars failing to catch the serial killer was because Quentin was able to hide behind his status as a noble.

I recall a letter where he buttered Meredith up but I don't believe being a noble alone was enough. As you recall there is at least one mage who's the son of a noble that Meredith was going to have executed unless Hawke speaks on his behalf.

Emille De Launcet wasn't legally a noble. No known mage is. Emille's legal status is no different than any other mage's. The reason Quentin was able to stonewall the Templars was that while he wasn't legally entitled to be nobility (because mage), Quentin was a recognized noble.

There is also, I believe her name is Avalena , the mage who saved the orphans that the templars didn't know as a mage until she turned herself in. At which time the templars cut off the orphans only means of support. Not exactly the most humanitarian act.

I'm not denying they're of questionable competence and morality. I'm just saying that the serial killer was because less because they as a whole were incompetent and more because Meredith (whose degree of competence I have little respect for) played politics at precisely the wrong time. (I'll also note that the average competence and moral fiber of the Kirkwall Templar Order probably decreased measurably with the investigating Templar's death.)

As for Cullen, I think that really is gameplay mechanics. (If this was unique to importing a female human mage Warden I'd assume it was that, but the problem with this explanation is that while it's simple and believeable it only works in a fraction of all the playthroughs of DA2 ever played.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 février 2014 - 01:24 .

[Hellion Rex]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Emille De Launcet wasn't legally a noble. No known mage is. Emille's legal status is no different than any other mage's. The reason Quentin was able to stonewall the Templars was that while he wasn't legally entitled to be nobility (because mage), Quentin was a recognized noble.

Quentin was NOT a noble. Gascard duPuis was the noble. Nowhere does it ever indicate that Quentin had noble blood.

[BlueMagitek]

themageguy wrote...

Remember, the average person in thedas isn't usually witness to magic.
Also, mages provide enchantments and healing, not just destruction.

Enchanting is actually provided by dwarves and tranquil, from my understanding.

[Hellion Rex]

BlueMagitek wrote...

themageguy wrote...

Remember, the average person in thedas isn't usually witness to magic.
Also, mages provide enchantments and healing, not just destruction.

Enchanting is actually provided by dwarves and tranquil, from my understanding.

And yet we have the elven enchanter in  Vigil's Keep, who was definitely not Tranquil.

[addiction21]

eluvianix wrote...

And yet we have the elven enchanter in  Vigil's Keep, who was definitely not Tranquil.

Any explanation as to why this one person breaks the mold? Or is it just another example of the game not matching the lore?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

eluvianix wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Emille De Launcet wasn't legally a noble. No known mage is. Emille's legal status is no different than any other mage's. The reason Quentin was able to stonewall the Templars was that while he wasn't legally entitled to be nobility (because mage), Quentin was a recognized noble.

Quentin was NOT a noble. Gascard duPuis was the noble. Nowhere does it ever indicate that Quentin had noble blood.

My mistake.

And of course this means there really was no excuse.

[Hellion Rex]

addiction21 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

And yet we have the elven enchanter in  Vigil's Keep, who was definitely not Tranquil.

Any explanation as to why this one person breaks the mold? Or is it just another example of the game not matching the lore?

Not a clue. I think any mage has the capacity to enchant, it's just that the dwarves and Tranquil are far superior at it.

[addiction21]

eluvianix wrote...

Not a clue. I think any mage has the capacity to enchant, it's just that the dwarves and Tranquil are far superior at it.

Is there anywhere else a normal mage or Elf mage enchants? Is it mentioned anywhere at all? The Dalsih have no Dwarves or Tranqul where are those enchanters or mentions of them?

Sorry I think it was more of a "we need a enchanter so here is a NPC that happens to be an elf" at least until shown otherwise.

[dragonflight288]

addiction21 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Not a clue. I think any mage has the capacity to enchant, it's just that the dwarves and Tranquil are far superior at it.

Is there anywhere else a normal mage or Elf mage enchants? Is it mentioned anywhere at all? The Dalsih have no Dwarves or Tranqul where are those enchanters or mentions of them?

Sorry I think it was more of a "we need a enchanter so here is a NPC that happens to be an elf" at least until shown otherwise.

Enchanting is a very dangerous profession because you are essentially working with raw lyrium, shaping it into runes and folding it into weapons and armor. 

I imagine tha if a mage studied enchanting and knew all the necessary precautions necessary for the job, it wouldn't be necessary for them to be a tranquil. Where the tranquil have advantages is their disconnect from the Fade and an apparent resistance to lyrium, and dwarves are more resistant to lyrium than surfacers are so they naturally would be able to do it. 

EDIT: Source: The tranquil at Ostagar talks about how enchanting is folding lyrium into weapons or armor, and is a time consuming process. Bodhan also says this by bragging about Sandal and how he can fold lyrium into any weapon or piece of armor. And that dwarven merchant in Orzammar who has some problems due to some lyrium getting into his blood confirms how dangerous working with lyrium is. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 13 février 2014 - 05:26 .

[addiction21]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Enchanting is a very dangerous profession because you are essentially working with raw lyrium, shaping it into runes and folding it into weapons and armor. 

I imagine tha if a mage studied enchanting and knew all the necessary precautions necessary for the job, it wouldn't be necessary for them to be a tranquil. Where the tranquil have advantages is their disconnect from the Fade and an apparent resistance to lyrium, and dwarves are more resistant to lyrium than surfacers are so they naturally would be able to do it. 

EDIT: Source: The tranquil at Ostagar talks about how enchanting is folding lyrium into weapons or armor, and is a time consuming process. Bodhan also says this by bragging about Sandal and how he can fold lyrium into any weapon or piece of armor. And that dwarven merchant in Orzammar who has some problems due to some lyrium getting into his blood confirms how dangerous working with lyrium is. 

So even if a mage knew the ins and outs it would still be hat dangerous and sandal is some sort of progeny .

What sets Cera apart from everyone else other then needing someone that can do the weapon modding (that's all it reall is) apart. Why can this one elf break the lore and all previous and latter examples of enchanting? Why have we never seen or heard of the Dalish doing the very same thing?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mages exist because I allow it.

And they will end because I demand it.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages exist because I allow it.

And they will end because I demand it.

I dare you to try, good sir.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Inprea wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That would require everyone trusting mages to create their own nation and lead it responsibly.

That ship has already came and gone. It's called Tevinter and it's the  longest lasting human nation to date. I don't agree with your notion  that it would require everyone to trust the mages either. The Rivaini  seems to have no issue trusting their seers and the Dalish have no issues with their keepers.

And the dalish are a nomadic people where clans are constatnly lost, while the Rivaini circle has been purged for practicing willing large-scale possesion.

Also, Tevinter is not regaded fondly by anyone.

I don't know what things where like for the Rivaini before the chantry but I haven't seen any proof that locking up their mages has improved the average person's quality of life in the least. It might have even made it worse.

Got any proof of that?
Word of God is that Thedas was a less safe place to live before the Circles.

I also have to question your definition of a nation. I'm not certain how many mages they actually are but I wouldn't expect much more then a city state if a large one.

A city-state is still a nation. Tehnicly.

Why should trust even be a factor?

Because consequences.
You wouldn't give keys to a nucler silo to just anyone, now would you?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And that dwarven merchant in Orzammar who has some problems due to some lyrium getting into his blood confirms how dangerous working with lyrium is. 

What really drives it home is when he gives a speech in response to a Warden saying dwarves can handle it. "Oh, yes. Only not too much and not every day and not right in the blood and not breathing the fumes."

[Lotion Soronarr]

Inprea wrote...
That doesn't require them to trust the mages. That just requires them to trust in their own miiltary strength and the distance between the mages and other settlements to act as a buffer. Even then it wouldn't require the entire nation to trust them. Simply the nation they're neighboring.

Given the relatively low birth rate of mages I'd be more concerned with expanding nations trying to push the mages from their home in a century or two. Unlike Tevinter this is meant to be a location where mages govern mages.

And how do you ensuire it stays that way?
As you said - you got no control or juridistiction, so the new mage nation can easily take in normals, or start practicing slave trade.
In fact, it's a given that there will be normals in such a nation, since most mages wouldn't want to deal with low jobs.

And blood magic. The eternal problem.
Mage needs soem help on his farm? No problem, he'll hop over to a nearby village, and "convince" some pesants that life in his city-state is better and they should leave.
Free workforce.
And since you have no proof whatsoever that they were taken by force (as if the nobles would care for a few pesants), what do you do?

I really don't get how people can talk about how massive a threat the mages pose and then say the templars could contain them without the mages consent.

They DID have the mages consent.
And once in the tower, the advanatge they have is diminished.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 février 2014 - 08:20 .

[Uccio]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Gaider has stated that Tevinter uses the same system the White Chantry does, only with Magisters (who are powerful, and the powerful mages seem less likely to get possessed) given somewhat more freedom. So, that's actually evidence that the Circle system is the best plan, since a country ruled by mages doesn't seem to think it a good idea for them to be left to their own devices. 

Not really. We know that Tevinter Imperium reached its peack during times when there was no circle. So Tervinter lived millenias without the circle did actually very well.
Circle is a invention of later date and in time of its downfall Tevinter was actually foced to incorporate the system. Again only through time did the Tevinter mages partially step by step free themselves from the circle and chantry chains. So Tevinter didn´t take circle system by choise, but through pressure. And it seems they are working to remove it even more now when chantry is weak.

Modifié par Ukki, 13 février 2014 - 12:53 .

[Uccio]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They DID have the mages consent.

I would argue that going to the circle beats getting run through. So yes, mages did have a "choice" in the matter. Kind of.

Modifié par Ukki, 13 février 2014 - 06:31 .