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[dragonflight288]

addiction21 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Enchanting is a very dangerous profession because you are essentially working with raw lyrium, shaping it into runes and folding it into weapons and armor. 

I imagine tha if a mage studied enchanting and knew all the necessary precautions necessary for the job, it wouldn't be necessary for them to be a tranquil. Where the tranquil have advantages is their disconnect from the Fade and an apparent resistance to lyrium, and dwarves are more resistant to lyrium than surfacers are so they naturally would be able to do it. 

EDIT: Source: The tranquil at Ostagar talks about how enchanting is folding lyrium into weapons or armor, and is a time consuming process. Bodhan also says this by bragging about Sandal and how he can fold lyrium into any weapon or piece of armor. And that dwarven merchant in Orzammar who has some problems due to some lyrium getting into his blood confirms how dangerous working with lyrium is. 

So even if a mage knew the ins and outs it would still be hat dangerous and sandal is some sort of progeny .

What sets Cera apart from everyone else other then needing someone that can do the weapon modding (that's all it reall is) apart. Why can this one elf break the lore and all previous and latter examples of enchanting? Why have we never seen or heard of the Dalish doing the very same thing?

Because in order to do enchantment you need lyrium. The dwarves mine it and the chantry control the lyrium trade on the surface. The dalish don't have a source of lyrium.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 13 février 2014 - 01:54 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ukki wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Gaider has stated that Tevinter uses the same system the White Chantry does, only with Magisters (who are powerful, and the powerful mages seem less likely to get possessed) given somewhat more freedom. So, that's actually evidence that the Circle system is the best plan, since a country ruled by mages doesn't seem to think it a good idea for them to be left to their own devices. 

Not really. We know that Tevinter Imperium reached its peack during times when there was no circle. So Tervinter lived millenias without the circle did actually very well.
Circle is a invention of later date and in time of its downfall Tevinter was actually foced to incorporate the system. Again only through time did the Tevinter mages partially step by step free themselves from the circle and chantry chains. So Tevinter didn´t take circle system by choise, but through pressure. And it seems they are working to remove it even more now when chantry is weak.

As for why they adopted it in the first place, you're right. But I've seen nothing to the effect that they're trying to remove it, and they haven't been under the thumb of the White Chantry for quite some time.

[Cyberbobmkii]

Ukki wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Gaider has stated that Tevinter uses the same system the White Chantry does, only with Magisters (who are powerful, and the powerful mages seem less likely to get possessed) given somewhat more freedom. So, that's actually evidence that the Circle system is the best plan, since a country ruled by mages doesn't seem to think it a good idea for them to be left to their own devices. 

Not really. We know that Tevinter Imperium reached its peack during times when there was no circle. So Tervinter lived millenias without the circle did actually very well.
Circle is a invention of later date and in time of its downfall Tevinter was actually foced to incorporate the system. Again only through time did the Tevinter mages partially step by step free themselves from the circle and chantry chains. So Tevinter didn´t take circle system by choise, but through pressure. And it seems they are working to remove it even more now when chantry is weak.

Actually, acordding to this, http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Magisters, the circle system predates Tevinter itself.

[The Baconer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
In fact, it's a given that there will be normals in such a nation, since most mages wouldn't want to deal with low jobs.

Most regular people would rather not deal with such work, and I bet most of the mages in Tevinter confined to "lowly" positions aren't satisfied with their stations, you can't escape a hierarchy.

And blood magic. The eternal problem.
Mage needs soem help on his farm? No problem, he'll hop over to a nearby village, and "convince" some pesants that life in his city-state is better and they should leave.
Free workforce.
And since you have no proof whatsoever that they were taken by force (as if the nobles would care for a few pesants), what do you do?

This would be working on the assumption that doing such would be legal within this theoretical mage society. And the nobles would certainly care. The peasants taken could have been bound to the land they worked, not to mention that it probably wouldn't take much proof to get the wheels turning on an exalted march.

Modifié par The Baconer, 13 février 2014 - 07:23 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Ukki wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They DID have the mages consent.

I would argue that going to the circle beats getting run through. So yes, mages did have a "choice" in the matter. Kind of.

One better then they deserved considering they waged a rebellion and seized the most holy location in White Thedas due to a whim.

._. Seriously i respect Templar Restraint in this matter and consider the formation of the circles a boon to Thedas but the Mage's justification in this story is pathetic.

It accounts basically to boredom.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It also isn't how the Circles were really formed, as can be verified by the fact that the Templar Order wasn't established until the same time the Circle were.

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It also isn't how the Circles were really formed, as can be verified by the fact that the Templar Order wasn't established until the same time the Circle were.

I think the "Templars" mentioned in Pre Circle Thedas were just wrote like that for expediencies sake given how unknown the "inquistion" was to most folks unless if they were a student of history.

So yes the Templar Order was founded alongside the Circle but they were not the first arm of the Chantry to combat Magic.

The Seekers and the Inquistion both predate the circle by a good long while.

[Uccio]

Cyberbobmkii wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Gaider has stated that Tevinter uses the same system the White Chantry does, only with Magisters (who are powerful, and the powerful mages seem less likely to get possessed) given somewhat more freedom. So, that's actually evidence that the Circle system is the best plan, since a country ruled by mages doesn't seem to think it a good idea for them to be left to their own devices. 

Not really. We know that Tevinter Imperium reached its peack during times when there was no circle. So Tervinter lived millenias without the circle did actually very well.
Circle is a invention of later date and in time of its downfall Tevinter was actually foced to incorporate the system. Again only through time did the Tevinter mages partially step by step free themselves from the circle and chantry chains. So Tevinter didn´t take circle system by choise, but through pressure. And it seems they are working to remove it even more now when chantry is weak.

Actually, acordding to this, http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Magisters, the circle system predates Tevinter itself.

Well it would be rather obvious that those circles were nothing like the current ones since there was no chantry either. They were probably more like just schools or boarding schools. A mage going home for a vacation was not hunted as an apostate and run through by templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It also isn't how the Circles were really formed, as can be verified by the fact that the Templar Order wasn't established until the same time the Circle were.

I think the "Templars" mentioned in Pre Circle Thedas were just wrote like that for expediencies sake given how unknown the "inquistion" was to most folks unless if they were a student of history.

So yes the Templar Order was founded alongside the Circle but they were not the first arm of the Chantry to combat Magic.

The Seekers and the Inquistion both predate the circle by a good long while.

The Inquisition was not part of the Chantry. The Circle and the Templars was established as a compromise between mages and the Inquisition.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ukki wrote...

Cyberbobmkii wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Gaider has stated that Tevinter uses the same system the White Chantry does, only with Magisters (who are powerful, and the powerful mages seem less likely to get possessed) given somewhat more freedom. So, that's actually evidence that the Circle system is the best plan, since a country ruled by mages doesn't seem to think it a good idea for them to be left to their own devices. 

Not really. We know that Tevinter Imperium reached its peack during times when there was no circle. So Tervinter lived millenias without the circle did actually very well.
Circle is a invention of later date and in time of its downfall Tevinter was actually foced to incorporate the system. Again only through time did the Tevinter mages partially step by step free themselves from the circle and chantry chains. So Tevinter didn´t take circle system by choise, but through pressure. And it seems they are working to remove it even more now when chantry is weak.

Actually, acordding to this, http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Magisters, the circle system predates Tevinter itself.

Well it would be rather obvious that those circles were nothing like the current ones since there was no chantry either. They were probably more like just schools or boarding schools. A mage going home for a vacation was not hunted as an apostate and run through by templars.

No they just went out to purchase living people like live stock before draining their wrists dry of blood so they could form a 4 meter dense fireball instead of a 3 meter dense one for "War Magic" Class.

Seriously if i hear another person harping on the Golden Age of the Imperium for anything but what it was (A Narcasitic, Self Indulgent Binge that resulted in Men so Arrogant they thought they could be living dieties) I will just lose all desire even point out the society they defend is so warped and corrupted it isn't worth defending.

They don't even have the defense of being a Ulititarian society even ._. Self Interest is weclomed in the Imperium which just makes it worse, Slavery when done for the greater good is diffrent then Slavery done for personal gain. Both acts are morally horrofic but at least one has the decency of putting the slaves to use in civic works and get more use out of them then a portable blood bank.

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It also isn't how the Circles were really formed, as can be verified by the fact that the Templar Order wasn't established until the same time the Circle were.

I think the "Templars" mentioned in Pre Circle Thedas were just wrote like that for expediencies sake given how unknown the "inquistion" was to most folks unless if they were a student of history.

So yes the Templar Order was founded alongside the Circle but they were not the first arm of the Chantry to combat Magic.

The Seekers and the Inquistion both predate the circle by a good long while.

The Inquisition was not part of the Chantry. The Circle and the Templars was established as a compromise between mages and the Inquisition.

It's a turn of phrase and considering the Inquistion supposedly formed to clean up the refuse of the Prophets rebellion i would agrue they were doing the Chantry's Will affilated with them or no. Just because an orginization predates the Chantry does not mean they cannot have similar aims.

Point being, The Inquistion predates the Circle which was my point and that was how the circle came to be.

Also pointed out the Seekers were around during the same time period they also joined the Chantry when the Accord was reached.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Seekers were the Inquisition. They might have similar goals to the Chantry, they still weren't part of the Chantry, and as such had no place negotiating anything. The tale is obviously just a legend, a fun story to tell of the creation of the Circle.

[MisterJB]

[quote]Inprea wrote...
LIke they stopped Jowan? Who is considered one of the weaker mages.
[/quote]
Distance also did not prevent the Tevinter mages from enslaving the entire continent. You based your argument purely on the principle that being away from normals would help prevent violence between them and mages and, thus my counterargument was based purely on the principle that being guarded by armed soldiers trained to fight them will be more effective than simple distance. 

[quote]
They're not the same as us so it's okay to strip them of their rights. You're not much into civil rights are you? [/quote]
They're more dangerous than us and thus merit a different attention. Society's laws restrict our freedoms and they apply to all not because of what we might have done but because of what we might do. This is because human beings are dangerous.
Since mages are much more dangerous than others, the restrictions upon their freedoms must account for this.

[quote]
So by your standard, that you should never let someone influence you, the mages should do whatever it takes to maintain their independence as it's bad according to you to let someone influence you.[/quote]
I don't begrudge mages who strive towards improving their lot. It is only natural.
And it is also only natural for normal people to see this with wary eyes.

[quote]
That's your speculation. I on the other hand believe that the distance between the mage settlement and those who don't wish mages living amongst them would provide both groups greater protection.[/quote]
The distance between Orlais and the Dales didn't provide them with much protection.

[quote]
Well what we believe is best. Dragon Age Inquisition will hopefully say who is right.[/quote]
Dragon Age Inquisition is written by humans such as you and I that are capable of bias and of being influenced by their emotions or simply by the wish of their customers.
Regardless of what happened in DAI, this debate will not be solved.
 
[quote]
Except we have no real mages or super humans to observe for actual data.[/quote]
We have people with power, tough. And we have seen that when given power, people tend towards abusing it.

[quote]I do however have something to bring to the table. Researchers at Stanford found using a virtual reality helmet that when a person was impowered virtually they tended to behave in a more social responsible manner. It seems that impowering someone, rather then giving them power over another person, promotes social responsibility.

So based on that I would say the average mage is going to be more socially responsible then your average templar or mundane.

http://www.smithsoni...ulness-9022619/[/quote]
Your application of that study is our argument is flawed. First and foremost, the conclusions of the scientists was that modern media has equated superpowers with heroes in our collective conscience. However, no such equation exists in Thedas where magic is more commonly associated with Magisters or Abominations.

Second, the study did not give some subjects worldly power over others and then compared the results with the subjects who were given superpowers. Therefore, your conclusion is also faulty.
Ultimately, I'd say thousands of years of the relationship between humans and other humans with power speaks higher than that test.

[quote]
Not true. Uldred could have just as well believed that he can kill the templars at any time and he was having fun turning the other mages because he's a sadistic ass. There is no need to rush if he's confident in his power and as he said he's having fun.[/quote]
Irving said Uldred's plan was to create an army and destroy the Templars and Uldred acting as if he was revealing a secret. Evidently, Ulred can't be fooling enough to believe a single Circle is capable of destroying the Order as a whole therefore, he can only be referring to the Templars in Ferelden which were keeping them from leaving.

[quote]
So Redclif serves as an example of why mages must be confined and the deaths at the circle are just tragic?[/quote]
A city of mages wouldn't have fared better just because there wouldn't be Templars around.


[quote]
I said more desperate. The point being that the destruction of the mage underground was not a shining success for the templars. It could have even been like removing the pressure valve from a boiler.[/quote]
The actions of mages are their own.

[quote]
There is also the issue that the templars couldn't solve the murders, recognize Dupree was a mage or find out what was happening to their recruits without Hawke. Perhaps the reason the templars were able to destroy the mage underground is because they decided to walk around with signs that read mage with big arrows on them. As given how often they needed Hawke's help it's amazing they were able to almost destroy the mage underground.
[/quote]
The game has to give us quests but it is evident that the Templars are efficient given how often we hear they capture escaped mages such as Grace's group; which are captured even if Hawke covers for them; or the ones who escaped from Kirkwall bar the three Meredith asks Hawke's help with. And even, it's obvious that Meredith asked for help not because they couldn't have done the job themselves but because she wishes Hawke to see what the Templars must contend with everyday.

[The Baconer]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Seriously if i hear another person harping on the Golden Age of the Imperium for anything but what it was (A Narcasitic, Self Indulgent Binge that resulted in Men so Arrogant they thought they could be living dieties) I will just lose all desire even point out the society they defend is so warped and corrupted it isn't worth defending.

I thought you were a proponent of mundane-on-mundane slavery?

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Seekers were the Inquisition. They might have similar goals to the Chantry, they still weren't part of the Chantry, and as such had no place negotiating anything. The tale is obviously just a legend, a fun story to tell of the creation of the Circle.

It sounds plusible enough to me personally.

And The Officers and Senior members of the Inquistion formed the Modern Day version of the Seekers true enough.

.-. I don't recall saying otherwise.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Baconer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Seriously if i hear another person harping on the Golden Age of the Imperium for anything but what it was (A Narcasitic, Self Indulgent Binge that resulted in Men so Arrogant they thought they could be living dieties) I will just lose all desire even point out the society they defend is so warped and corrupted it isn't worth defending.

I thought you were a proponent of mundane-on-mundane slavery?

Depends upon the setting and reasoning behind it.

Slavery for the sake of Slavery? No i do not support that.

Slavery for the sake of the Nation advancing? I can tolerate it.

In the simplest terms i suppose you could put it like this.

For the sake of the Invidiual i do not support the practice but when it is done for something greater i can either condone it, tolerate it or outright give it approval depending upon the format it takes.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Seekers were the Inquisition. They might have similar goals to the Chantry, they still weren't part of the Chantry, and as such had no place negotiating anything. The tale is obviously just a legend, a fun story to tell of the creation of the Circle.

Well, the Seekers were spawned from the Inquisition, as were the Templars.

[The Baconer]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Depends upon the setting and reasoning behind it.

Slavery for the sake of Slavery? No i do not support that.

Slavery for the sake of the Nation advancing? I can tolerate it.

In the simplest terms i suppose you could put it like this.

For the sake of the Invidiual i do not support the practice but when it is done for something greater i can either condone it, tolerate it or outright give it approval depending upon the format it takes.

Many of the great feats of architecture that still see use today (most notable example being the Imperial Highway) were built on the backs, and likely with the blood, of slaves. Their relationship with the dwarves, which included the trading of slaves going by Corypheus' dialogue, is probably why the illiterate people in Thedas can read (or can at least recognize the meaning) of dwarven runes.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Baconer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Depends upon the setting and reasoning behind it.

Slavery for the sake of Slavery? No i do not support that.

Slavery for the sake of the Nation advancing? I can tolerate it.

In the simplest terms i suppose you could put it like this.

For the sake of the Invidiual i do not support the practice but when it is done for something greater i can either condone it, tolerate it or outright give it approval depending upon the format it takes.

Many of the great feats of architecture that still see use today (most notable example being the Imperial Highway) were built on the backs, and likely with the blood, of slaves. Their relationship with the dwarves, which included the trading of slaves going by Corypheus' dialogue, is probably why the illiterate people in Thedas can read (or can at least recognize the meaning) of dwarven runes.

I would agrue Magic played more of a role in the construction of The Imperial Highway then outright slave labor considering that even at it's Height the Imperium rarely commited sigificant resources to thedas unless if the return would be immense. Forming a networked trade route to their Dwarves would qualify i suppose but it's debatable never the less considering much of the history of the Imperial Highway has been lost.

And King's Tongue was taught by the Dwarves...True enough; But this scant acheivements hardly qualify as Cultural or even National Achievements considering most slaves in the Modern Imperium are little more then portable Mana Batteries.

That said i'd love to continue this conversation in PM.

I'd say the derailing has go along far enough wouldn't you?

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think most slaves in the Imperium is just that, slaves. SOME slaves in the Imperium are used as "mana batteries", and a Magister wouldn't think twice about doing so, but most slaves are probably being used for physical labor.

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think most slaves in the Imperium is just that, slaves. SOME slaves in the Imperium are used as "mana batteries", and a Magister wouldn't think twice about doing so, but most slaves are probably being used for physical labor.

._. I knew this would Derail the thread; Just knew it.

[Hellion Rex]

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think most slaves in the Imperium is just that, slaves. SOME slaves in the Imperium are used as "mana batteries", and a Magister wouldn't think twice about doing so, but most slaves are probably being used for physical labor.

._. I knew this would Derail the thread; Just knew it.

To be fair though, these threads always to get derailed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think most slaves in the Imperium is just that, slaves. SOME slaves in the Imperium are used as "mana batteries", and a Magister wouldn't think twice about doing so, but most slaves are probably being used for physical labor.

._. I knew this would Derail the thread; Just knew it.

To be fair though, these threads always to get derailed.

And Sahlertz probably isn't wrong there, either.

[Hellion Rex]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They DID have the mages consent.

I would argue that going to the circle beats getting run through. So yes, mages did have a "choice" in the matter. Kind of.

One better then they deserved considering they waged a rebellion and seized the most holy location in White Thedas due to a whim.

._. Seriously i respect Templar Restraint in this matter and consider the formation of the circles a boon to Thedas but the Mage's justification in this story is pathetic.

It accounts basically to boredom.

You are joking right? All they did was snuff the flames in the Cathedral and barricade themselves in the choir loft. It was hardly a rebellion.

[The Baconer]

Master Warder Z wrote...

I would agrue Magic played more of a role in the construction of The Imperial Highway then outright slave labor considering that even at it's Height the Imperium rarely commited sigificant resources to thedas unless if the return would be immense. Forming a networked trade route to their Dwarves would qualify i suppose but it's debatable never the less considering much of the history of the Imperial Highway has been lost.

Even if magic were exclusively the method of its construction, which I'm not inclined to believe, where did the stone come from? What powered the magic in creating the structure? Blood comes cheaper than Lyrium.

And King's Tongue was taught by the Dwarves...True enough; But this scant acheivements hardly qualify as Cultural or even National Achievements considering most slaves in the Modern Imperium are little more then portable Mana Batteries.

It's not supposed to be seen as an achievement, it's just a "leftover" of a society's morally questionable practices, for better or worse.

That said i'd love to continue this conversation in PM.

I would, but BSN seems to insist that Master Warder Z is not a user that exists.