645 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They DID have the mages consent.

I would argue that going to the circle beats getting run through. So yes, mages did have a "choice" in the matter. Kind of.

One better then they deserved considering they waged a rebellion and seized the most holy location in White Thedas due to a whim.

._. Seriously i respect Templar Restraint in this matter and consider the formation of the circles a boon to Thedas but the Mage's justification in this story is pathetic.

It accounts basically to boredom.

You are joking right? All they did was snuff the flames in the Cathedral and barricade themselves in the choir loft. It was hardly a rebellion.

It was an armed seizure of a place of religious worship.

A Crime is a Crime; For example Home invasion is Home invasion regardless if the intruder is armed with a machine gun or a box cutter.

They held a sacred instution hostage while they shouted demands all because of boredom; They risked another war because of boredom.

All those who took part should have been hung or drawn and quarted.

[Hellion Rex]

Master Warder Z wrote...

It was an armed seizure of a place of religious worship.

A Crime is a Crime; For example Home invasion is Home invasion regardless if the intruder is armed with a machine gun or a box cutter.

They held a sacred instution hostage while they shouted demands all because of boredom; They risked another war because of boredom.

All those who took part should have been hung or drawn and quarted.

Hardly. It's not like they took over the Grand Cathedral. They sat in the freaking choir loft, nothing more. It was no crime at all.

[Mistic]

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

It was an armed seizure of a place of religious worship.

A Crime is a Crime; For example Home invasion is Home invasion regardless if the intruder is armed with a machine gun or a box cutter.

They held a sacred instution hostage while they shouted demands all because of boredom; They risked another war because of boredom.

All those who took part should have been hung or drawn and quarted.

Hardly. It's not like they took over the Grand Cathedral. They sat in the freaking choir loft, nothing more. It was no crime at all.

I agree. I think it was more akin to a strike. Or occupation as an act of protest.

[Hellion Rex]

The Baconer wrote...

I would, but BSN seems to insist that Master Warder Z is not a user that exists.

It now requires that you be friends with the person you wish to message.

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

It was an armed seizure of a place of religious worship.

A Crime is a Crime; For example Home invasion is Home invasion regardless if the intruder is armed with a machine gun or a box cutter.

They held a sacred instution hostage while they shouted demands all because of boredom; They risked another war because of boredom.

All those who took part should have been hung or drawn and quarted.

Hardly. It's not like they took over the Grand Cathedral. They sat in the freaking choir loft, nothing more. It was no crime at all.

._.  Ahem

The Definition of Takeover: The act or an instance of assuming control or management of or responsibility for something, especially the seizure of power, as in a nation, political organization, or corporation.

It seems as if it would easily apply to the unlawful seizure of a building, in this case the headquarters of the chantry in white thedas.

So basically them going unpunished is simply a mercy to far for me to support.

Like i said before; Hung or quarted.

[Master Warder Z_]

Misticsan wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

It was an armed seizure of a place of religious worship.

A Crime is a Crime; For example Home invasion is Home invasion regardless if the intruder is armed with a machine gun or a box cutter.

They held a sacred instution hostage while they shouted demands all because of boredom; They risked another war because of boredom.

All those who took part should have been hung or drawn and quarted.

Hardly. It's not like they took over the Grand Cathedral. They sat in the freaking choir loft, nothing more. It was no crime at all.

I agree. I think it was more akin to a strike. Or occupation as an act of protest.

And yet our own laws disagree with you, and this is a Feudalistic setting.

They actually knew how to deal with criminals too.

None of this lifetime imprisionment garbage either, Executable offenses were actually enforced with regularity.

[SgtSteel91]

It was a sit in! I don't think they killed anyone during it. That really does not require an execution, maybe imprisonment.

[Hellion Rex]

Master Warder Z wrote...
._.  Ahem

The Definition of Takeover: The act or an instance of assuming control or management of or responsibility for something, especially the seizure of power, as in a nation, political organization, or corporation.

It seems as if it would easily apply to the unlawful seizure of a building, in this case the headquarters of the chantry in white thedas.

So basically them going unpunished is simply a mercy to far for me to support.

Like i said before; Hung or quarted.

Ahem, they sat in a loft. No assuming control of a building, at all.

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
._.  Ahem

The Definition of Takeover: The act or an instance of assuming control or management of or responsibility for something, especially the seizure of power, as in a nation, political organization, or corporation.

It seems as if it would easily apply to the unlawful seizure of a building, in this case the headquarters of the chantry in white thedas.

So basically them going unpunished is simply a mercy to far for me to support.

Like i said before; Hung or quarted.

Ahem, they sat in a loft. No assuming control of a building, at all.

Your really scrapping the legality of the issue but it isn't armed seizure i grant you it is still the unlawful seizure of the portion of building.

Still a punishable offense in our own world and definately within Thedosian society.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I'm a bit confused about the question, "why mages still exist", even after reading the OP.

1. They keep being born

2. They have usefulness in times of war.

It's like asking why warheads and bombs were allowed to exist. People keeping manufacturing them and they are used whenever people go to war.

And the tevinter imperium is probably the most logical way mages in a primitive society plays out. They kill all the warriors and they take over as the upper class, same as the warriors were before the mages killed them. I don't see what the Op was getting at, or how they figure society would enforce its whole mage suppression campaign even back int he day of the old gods when templars weren't a thing.

Here's a scenario to ponder. People feared mages, people found out they gave birth to a mage when the child begins showing magical power at around say, 10. They try to kill it and it runs away. More mage children run away. Run away mages begin banding together out of society. Society assumes they all died. Mages grow in power and number and storm the place where people drove them away. War occurs. Mages win war, begin running society.

Tevinter imperium is born.

Tevinter sets up mages as people to be praised and respected. New idea becomes a accepted norm and mental concept. Repeat for a few hundred to thousand years and generations. Mages being people who are powerful and not inhuman beings engrained into all human social conepts. Mages treated as being humans with powers ever since.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 février 2014 - 10:54 .

[dragonflight288]

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
._.  Ahem

The Definition of Takeover: The act or an instance of assuming control or management of or responsibility for something, especially the seizure of power, as in a nation, political organization, or corporation.

It seems as if it would easily apply to the unlawful seizure of a building, in this case the headquarters of the chantry in white thedas.

So basically them going unpunished is simply a mercy to far for me to support.

Like i said before; Hung or quarted.

Ahem, they sat in a loft. No assuming control of a building, at all.

Your really scrapping the legality of the issue but it isn't armed seizure i grant you it is still the unlawful seizure of the portion of building.

Still a punishable offense in our own world and definately within Thedosian society.

Peaceful protest is a punishable offense in our world?

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
._.  Ahem

The Definition of Takeover: The act or an instance of assuming control or management of or responsibility for something, especially the seizure of power, as in a nation, political organization, or corporation.

It seems as if it would easily apply to the unlawful seizure of a building, in this case the headquarters of the chantry in white thedas.

So basically them going unpunished is simply a mercy to far for me to support.

Like i said before; Hung or quarted.

Ahem, they sat in a loft. No assuming control of a building, at all.

Your really scrapping the legality of the issue but it isn't armed seizure i grant you it is still the unlawful seizure of the portion of building.

Still a punishable offense in our own world and definately within Thedosian society.

Peaceful protest is a punishable offense in our world?

*cough* Russia *cough*
But anyways, the mages didn't harm anyone. All they did was sit in the choir loft and negotiate. Ambrosia is the idiot who wanted to launch an Exalted March on her own Cathedral.

Modifié par eluvianix, 13 février 2014 - 11:06 .

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
._.  Ahem

The Definition of Takeover: The act or an instance of assuming control or management of or responsibility for something, especially the seizure of power, as in a nation, political organization, or corporation.

It seems as if it would easily apply to the unlawful seizure of a building, in this case the headquarters of the chantry in white thedas.

So basically them going unpunished is simply a mercy to far for me to support.

Like i said before; Hung or quarted.

Ahem, they sat in a loft. No assuming control of a building, at all.

Your really scrapping the legality of the issue but it isn't armed seizure i grant you it is still the unlawful seizure of the portion of building.

Still a punishable offense in our own world and definately within Thedosian society.

Peaceful protest is a punishable offense in our world?

*cough* Russia *cough*
But anyways, the mages didn't harm anyone. All they did was sit in the choir loft and negotiate.

Good point about Russia. 

And yes, you are also correct about the mages. The codex makes it clear that the mages simply snuffed out the candles, holed themselves in the loft, and negotiations were made shouted up and down from the loft, and the mages went into the Circles with smiles on their faces. 

The Divine wanted to order an Exalted March on her own cathedral, and the templars talked her down from it. 

This is all in the codex and is simply a matter of fact. I don't get why this is being debated. 

[Br3admax]

Inprea wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I feel really sorry for the eventual nonmage children born in this hypothetical country. Bullying at a whole new level.

You mean like what young mages suffer at the hands of templars? It's a shame bioware didn't show what the children at the gallows went through.

That makes it okay. Two wrongs do indeed make a right. 

[TK514]

A group of Mages taking over a building, or part of a building, is a bit different than your local union holding a strike. I'm reading a lot of 'they just boarded themselves in and nothing else!', but that rings false. First, your local union doesn't have at will access to powers of mass destruction. Even untrained Mages do. Second, if all they did was lock the door and shout, then why didn't the guard, the Templars, or a particularly burly sister simply break down the door and drag them out by their ears? They had to be making some threats, and demonstrating willingness to back those threats up, or they'd have had no more bargaining power than a four year old who doesn't want to eat his dinner.

You can't take and hold even part of a building if you haven't demonstrated the means and willingness to defend it.

Modifié par TK514, 13 février 2014 - 11:25 .

[SgtSteel91]

The Grand Cleric wanted to "break down the door and drag them out by their ears." The Templars convinced her otherwise.

[TK514]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

The Grand Cleric wanted to "break down the door and drag them out by their ears." The Templars convinced her otherwise.

actually, the Grand Cleric wanted to put them all to the sword.  A bit different.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

A group of Mages taking over a building, or part of a building, is a bit different than your local union holding a strike. I'm reading a lot of 'they just boarded themselves in and nothing else!', but that rings false. First, your local union doesn't have at will access to powers of mass destruction. Even untrained Mages do. Second, if all they did was lock the door and shout, then why didn't the guard, the Templars, or a particularly burly sister simply break down the door and drag them out by their ears? They had to be making some threats, and demonstrating willingness to back those threats up, or they'd have had no more bargaining power than a four year old who doesn't want to eat his dinner.

You can't take and hold even part of a building if you haven't demonstrated the means and willingness to defend it.

And yet, we have nothing other than what the Code Entry says. If they had truly been making any serious threats, I'm damned sure the Templar Order would have broken in to the loft. Even the Divine's most "devoted" templars didn't want to seek bloodshed.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

And yet, we have nothing other than what the Code Entry says. If they had truly been making any serious threats, I'm damned sure the Templar Order would have broken in to the loft. Even the Divine's most "devoted" templars didn't want to seek bloodshed.

You're sure, are you?  This is a Templar Order not far removed from their roots as an organization devoted to Impartial Justice.  What you're implying is that you don't believe the Templars were ever capable of being a voice of reason, and that they have always been exactly as they are today.

[Cainhurst Crow]

TK514 wrote...

A group of Mages taking over a building, or part of a building, is a bit different than your local union holding a strike. I'm reading a lot of 'they just boarded themselves in and nothing else!', but that rings false. First, your local union doesn't have at will access to powers of mass destruction. Even untrained Mages do. Second, if all they did was lock the door and shout, then why didn't the guard, the Templars, or a particularly burly sister simply break down the door and drag them out by their ears? They had to be making some threats, and demonstrating willingness to back those threats up, or they'd have had no more bargaining power than a four year old who doesn't want to eat his dinner.

You can't take and hold even part of a building if you haven't demonstrated the means and willingness to defend it.

I don't understand what your point is here exactly. You say they were making some kind of threat...because they just were. You don't actually back it up with any proof. You make a statement, and present the statement as fact based on the fact that it is a statement you wrote.

Also, showing their willingess to continue the blockade doesn't really mean they were making any other demands, just that they didn't plan a ****ty blockade. What do you think, that in order to be a blockade it has to be able to easily fail becuase someone was strong enough to knock down the doors? Seriously, what dense sort of logic is that?

And what exactly is wrong with them showing that when they made this blockade, they decided that they would find a way to extend the blockade? That's kinda the entire point of every protest. No effective protest in the history of the world was ever made without a willingness to continue the protest, otherwise you just get occupy-we-have-no-goal-or-idea-what-we're-doing-and-lack-any-drive-to-do-anything-other-then-bang-drums-so-we're-just-gonna-spiral-into-irrelevancy-wallstreet.

[Cainhurst Crow]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

And yet, we have nothing other than what the Code Entry says. If they had truly been making any serious threats, I'm damned sure the Templar Order would have broken in to the loft. Even the Divine's most "devoted" templars didn't want to seek bloodshed.

You're sure, are you?  This is a Templar Order not far removed from their roots as an organization devoted to Impartial Justice.  What you're implying is that you don't believe the Templars were ever capable of being a voice of reason, and that they have always been exactly as they are today.

What is your point? I mean, seriously, what is it?

You claim the mages had to be making more demands and were a bigger threat then just being dug into a building in protest and having a drive to defend that point.

Someone tells you that the mages probably didn't have any other demands then what was stated in codex, and your rebuttle is to say "Well you don't know what the templars were like back then!"

The **** is going on?

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

And yet, we have nothing other than what the Code Entry says. If they had truly been making any serious threats, I'm damned sure the Templar Order would have broken in to the loft. Even the Divine's most "devoted" templars didn't want to seek bloodshed.

You're sure, are you?  This is a Templar Order not far removed from their roots as an organization devoted to Impartial Justice.  What you're implying is that you don't believe the Templars were ever capable of being a voice of reason, and that they have always been exactly as they are today.

No, what I am saying is is that clearly the Templar Order didn't believe that what you dub as "threats" were at all dangerous. They judged the situation as not needing to use force. If the mages had been making threats against the Chantry, then they would have been completely justified if they had taken a more active approach. But the Codex gives us no indication that threats of violence were made.

[TK514]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I don't understand what your point is here exactly. You say they were making some kind of threat...because they just were. You don't actually back it up with any proof. You make a statement, and present the statement as fact based on the fact that it is a statement you wrote.

Also, showing their willingess to continue the blockade doesn't really mean they were making any other demands, just that they didn't plan a ****ty blockade. What do you think, that in order to be a blockade it has to be able to easily fail becuase someone was strong enough to knock down the doors? Seriously, what dense sort of logic is that?

And what exactly is wrong with them showing that when they made this blockade, they decided that they would find a way to extend the blockade? That's kinda the entire point of every protest. No effective protest in the history of the world was ever made without a willingness to continue the protest, otherwise you just get occupy-we-have-no-goal-or-idea-what-we're-doing-and-lack-any-drive-to-do-anything-other-then-bang-drums-so-we're-just-gonna-spiral-into-irrelevancy-wallstreet.

you're being dense, aren't you? 

You out go into to someone's house and lock yourself in the bathroom. You yell your list if demands through the bathroom door.  The cops come, break down the door and throw your silly ass in jail because you pose no serious threat.  You're just some moron who figured taking over the bathroom was enough.  That's what you're suggesting the Mages did.  Except in your scenario , no one broke down the door "just because".  So all right, smart guy.  Why didn't the guards, the Templars, or just the Janitorial staff break down the door and drag the Mages out?  What was the Mage's bargaining position?  What prevent ANYONE from simply walking over and dragging them out?

[Cainhurst Crow]

TK514 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I don't understand what your point is here exactly. You say they were making some kind of threat...because they just were. You don't actually back it up with any proof. You make a statement, and present the statement as fact based on the fact that it is a statement you wrote.

Also, showing their willingess to continue the blockade doesn't really mean they were making any other demands, just that they didn't plan a ****ty blockade. What do you think, that in order to be a blockade it has to be able to easily fail becuase someone was strong enough to knock down the doors? Seriously, what dense sort of logic is that?

And what exactly is wrong with them showing that when they made this blockade, they decided that they would find a way to extend the blockade? That's kinda the entire point of every protest. No effective protest in the history of the world was ever made without a willingness to continue the protest, otherwise you just get occupy-we-have-no-goal-or-idea-what-we're-doing-and-lack-any-drive-to-do-anything-other-then-bang-drums-so-we're-just-gonna-spiral-into-irrelevancy-wallstreet.

you're being dense, aren't you? 

You out go into to someone's house and lock yourself in the bathroom. You yell your list if demands through the bathroom door.  The cops come, break down the door and throw your silly ass in jail because you pose no serious threat.  You're just some moron who figured taking over the bathroom was enough.  That's what you're suggesting the Mages did.  Except in your scenario , no one broke down the door "just because".  So all right, smart guy.  Why didn't the guards, the Templars, or just the Janitorial staff break down the door and drag the Mages out?  What was the Mage's bargaining position?  What prevent ANYONE from simply walking over and dragging them out?

How does pretending that my stance was the one you proposed in your post benefit you? And again, you have failed to answer one of the biggest questions that I want to know.

What makes you think the mages demanded more then what the codex says they did? What makes you think they didn't just fortify their position and nothing else?

I argue that they fortified their position and were ready to hold out, you come in and say they wanted more in their demands then we know, I ask you how and point out that you seem to think that them fortifying their position means they were obviously being violent and demanding more things and that that is fallacious and ridiculous.

And then you try and say I think the mages didn't fortify their positions at all.

What are you?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 février 2014 - 11:56 .

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

No, what I am saying is is that clearly the Templar Order didn't believe that what you dub as "threats" were at all dangerous. They judged the situation as not needing to use force. If the mages had been making threats against the Chantry, then they would have been completely justified if they had taken a more active approach. But the Codex gives us no indication that threats of violence were made.

I posit to you the same question I just asked DudeBro.  If the Mages posed no creditble threat, what was their bargaining position?  Why didn't anyone just walk over and drag them out like a bunch of four year olds who didn't want to do their chores.

Somehow, they had a strong enough bargaining position to convince everyone present to take them seriously enough NOT to simply walk over and spank them.