304 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I am surprised that this has not been brought up a lot in the forums or in the game.

The Qunari society is very systematic, rigid, orderly, role-restrictive and disciplined. This all makes for a cohesive, united society, each with one particular role. Which is on one hand, great. 

However, this also exposes the Qun to some major weaknesses. The way their society is structured means they are like a body. One part does one thing in order for the body to function as a whole.

What happens if say one part of the Qun is destroyed / wrecked / sabotaged ? The Qun is made up of the millitary, the priesthood and the craftsmen. What happens if the millitary is completely defeated ? Will there be anyone from the priesthood or craftsmen sect of the Qun be willing to take up arms / capable to take up arms ? 

We know that Qunari are uniquely vulnerable to magic and that it was mages that brought the fight to the standstill and the Kirkwall mages played a big part when Qunari invaded there. & Tevinter, it is magic that is keeping Qunari at bay. Realistically, all that is needed to cripple the Qunari millitary is more magic. In DA:I, the Veil is torn so there's that. & mages are now sort of dependent. 

So that's the first weakness. Cripple one of the triumvirate and the other two are gone because if you cripple a part of the body, the body ceases to function effectively. & Qunari are all about effectiveness. 

The second is that Qunari being orderly, disciplined and strong adherents to a specific tenet, teachings of Koslun means that they, for the most part, think similarly and fight similarly.

Sort of like the Protheans. One doctrine, one strategy. Now we don't have Reapers in Thedas but imagine what would happen if the other nations in Thedas, particularly Tevinter or the Dwarves, manage to either figure out and combat their battle strategies or manage to be on par with them technologically ? Just saying, it won't be pretty. 

Thirdly, because their are strong adherents to a single tenet, they do not assimilate or evolve their culture. What I mean is they do not change. The only way the Qunari have even had a semblance of change is by warfare and indoctrination (get new adherents to their doctrine). They still have the same attitude towards magic despite its potential to defend & protect (enchantments, alchemy, healing magic, etc). They are extremely unwilling to share their secrets with other societies.

Now i am doing my studies in anthropology and so far I have not come across any single society that has lasted without assimilation and changing. Ever.  Either they get conquered or they lose the arms and tech race. 

So the Qunari society is fine and dandy but it only seems to work if their opponents are not as advanced as they are, not as united as they are and not having figured out this yet. Given time, technologies converge to a point. Given time and cause, peole can be united and be intelligent enough to figure this out. 

I am just wondering, with all these , that I could in Inquisition...especially as a Qunari Inquisitor who is a Vashoth, to have an intelligent debate with other Qunari about this. That for all their claims, they have their weaknesses just like other societies and they should be more open to assimilation, be more open to magic and have a backup plan in place should one part of their society be wrecked. 

Thoughts ?

[n7stormrunner]

mostly not bought up because it been covered and there is nothing really to discuss, you have already covered everything in your opening post. expect the army part, all the qunari can fight at least a little the army is just the ones who do it all the time as their role.

[Zack_Nero]

A debate from one Qunari to another, I do not see that going well without at least 30 swords from both sides to be honest.

[BlueMagitek]

I think you're underestimating the Qunari in that you seem to believe that, once assigned the role, that is all they will ever learn. That is incorrect, for example: they can all fight, and their secret police employ women to fight as well, but it is not the role of anyone but those dictated to be warriors under the Qun to fight.

As for not sharing their secrets, why in the world would they want to? They're either outright enemies or will soon to be enemies of every nation in Thedas. Should they just bandy down the street sharing the secrets of gunpowder to the people they intend to conquer? Should they share their workings of medicine with the people that they intend to kill?

Tevinter is not keeping the Qunari at bay through forced action, Fenris pretty much states that Tevinter is basically just launching campaign after campaign trying to take the island back and failing.

[AutumnWitch]

"We know that Qunari are uniquely vulnerable to magic and that it was
mages that brought the fight to the standstill and the Kirkwall mages
played a big part when Qunari invaded there. & Tevinter, it is magic
that is keeping Qunari at bay. Realistically, all that is needed to
cripple the Qunari millitary is more magic. In DA:I, the Veil is torn so
there's that. & mages are now sort of dependent."

If you read in between the lines of some of the codex entries, it appears that the Qunari stopped the war for actual "humanitarian" reasons. They probably could have won the war IMO.

"The war drained the resources of every nation in Thedas, leaving most on the brink of collapse. For the giants, it did not appear to be the damage to their armada or the loss of their soldiers, but the terrible toll upon the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat. When the Third New Exalted March had all but massacred the people of Kont-aar without even chipping the Qunari occupying force, the giants finally withdrew. "

[DRTJR]

If The Tevinter Imperium could dry up the Qunari's rivers, they cripple the farming it halts the progress of the farmers, as well as limit's their food supply. Which will take a while if Sten is the norm.

[CELL55]

How they managed to get such advanced technologies in the first place is beyond me; the Qunari seem to be too rigid/creatively sterile to invent new things. If you can just 'assign' people to the role of inventor, then where's my jetpack?

[Mirrman70]

CELL55 wrote...

How they managed to get such advanced technologies in the first place is beyond me; the Qunari seem to be too rigid/creatively sterile to invent new things. If you can just 'assign' people to the role of inventor, then where's my jetpack?

you are under the assumption that technology in thedas advances as fast as it does in our world. First of all they don't have access to vast amounts of resources to waste on potentially useless experiments hoping t o get that one shot of a thousand. they have to partition their resources so that the more important parts of their society have what they need and then the extra goes to the other parts such as the researchers. technology advancement only goes quickly if you have sufficient resources. DaVinci had pretty good early schematics for many things that weren't actualized until a few centuries later, they simply weren't adopted because they didn't have the means to build and test prototypes.

[Saints]

CELL55 wrote...

How they managed to get such advanced technologies in the first place is beyond me; the Qunari seem to be too rigid/creatively sterile to invent new things. If you can just 'assign' people to the role of inventor, then where's my jetpack?

Sarcasm noted.

They probably try to find the properties of new substances that they find, hence gunpowder and explosives. They probably have scientist but no "inventors". 

[TurretSyndrome]

Remember that the Protheans only to lost to the immensely overwhelming and advanced force, which are the Reapers. Until then, they were the rulers of the known galaxy.

The Qunari are very much like the Protheans. They assign roles and are very strict about them. They waste nothing. So compared to them, the rest of the countries are as segmented as they can be. It's mostly made up of humans after all, and humans only think about themselves, very few among them actually care about their countries or people or whatever.

You ask what happens if their warriors are all decimated and they have no one to continue to fight as the rest of them are just non-military. I say, this is where you heavily underestimate them. As Autumn Witch pointed out, the war with the Chantry barely chipped their forces, even with the help of mages. Not only that, now they have something they did not have before, which is Blackpowder, a counter to magic.

So don't be so sure that they are weak. They are very systematic about everything, so a force like that is extremely formidable. Other than out-of-world threats like the Reapers, I doubt there's any nation or a group of nations can truly defeat the Qunari force right now.

Also, if there will be a fourth game in this franchise, I hope it is about a full scale invasion of the Qunari.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I think you're underestimating the Qunari in that you seem to believe that, once assigned the role, that is all they will ever learn. That is incorrect, for example: they can all fight, and their secret police employ women to fight as well, but it is not the role of anyone but those dictated to be warriors under the Qun to fight.

I actually remember reading from one of Mary Kirby's posts that heavily specializing is a habit of the Qunari.

[Dermain]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Remember that the Protheans only to lost to the immensely overwhelming and advanced force, which are the Reapers. Until then, they were the rulers of the known galaxy.

The Qunari are very much like the Protheans. They assign roles and are very strict about them. They waste nothing. So compared to them, the rest of the countries are as segmented as they can be. It's mostly made up of humans after all, and humans only think about themselves, very few among them actually care about their countries or people or whatever.

It's a sad day when someone is more cynical than me.

TurretSyndrome wrote...
You ask what happens if their warriors are all decimated and they have no one to continue to fight as the rest of them are just non-military. I say, this is where you heavily underestimate them. As Autumn Witch pointed out, the war with the Chantry barely chipped their forces, even with the help of mages. Not only that, now they have something they did not have before, which is Blackpowder, a counter to magic.

I have a feeling the Qunari doesn't send all of their warriors on a campaign. If they did, they would be basically wiped out after the Arishok died (assuming he was killed by Hawke) in DA2.

TurretSyndrome wrote...
Also, if there will be a fourth game in this franchise, I hope it is about a full scale invasion of the Qunari.

Ideally the game will also be in Tevinter! 

[Sentinel358]

A lot of these "weaknesses" arent really unique to the Qunari though, like yes they would be defeated if their military force was destoryed, but wouldnt any other nation? When did qunari have a weakness to magic? Its not the "kryptonite" so to speak, of qunari, they also use it along with gunpowder the only reason they lost so much ground is because had several exhaulted marches aimed at them. Tevinter still hasnt recovered from their invasion.

I dont see why following the Qun doesnt allow adaption. They have engineers who successfully created gunpowder, medical knowledge that surpasses every other nation, and a work ethic that is second to none. Attaining new knowledge is not effected by their methods, what in the Qun would prevent progression?

Modifié par Sentinel358, 09 février 2014 - 07:41 .

[Gorguz]

The Qun does not stop technological advancement, on the contrary. I don't remember who tells Hawke (talis perhaps?) "you saw the military aspect of the qun, but there are thousands of craftmen, farmers and ARTISTS". The Arishok (?) says that the book is updated constantly, as people find answers to the qun questions. They are not in a cultural stall. Maybe they follow rigorously the qun tenets, but the qun itself does not ban technological or cultural advancement. I wouldn't be surprise if it comes out that the tenets themselves are revisited constantly by the priesthood as their debates go on.

[KiwiQuiche]

1) "Arishok the body, Arigena the mind, and Ariqun the soul." They are the ultimate pillars- however they have many, many underlings.

The army IS the body- if you cripple that you don't cripple the Qun, since the Arishok/army is the Qun's entire body which leaves the mind and soul still completely functioning. And as we saw in DA2, the Qunari do not need employ force to get willing converts.

2)The problem is we have no idea wtf Koslun wrote in his entirety- the Qun is based on his philosophy, yet we dunno if he wrote "never try and advance using technology rather than those crazed beast we call magi" so you can't speculate on Koslun's opinion on technology- the existence of their gunpowder kinda defeats your own argument on the Qun never trying to advance.

In terms of strategy- it's obvious the Qunari are smart and cunning when they want to be- 'figure out'. Um, figure out what? Espionage and brute force is kinda hard to combat. Just look at how hilariously easy Tallis made Hawke go Fullretard to get that spy luist.

3) You act is if not giving away your secrets and advancements to nations hostile to you is stupid.
And the whole tearing Veil kinda proves the Qunari right in terms of 'mages are crazy bastards and magic really sucks' mentality.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 09 février 2014 - 09:50 .

[fhs33721]

Well their worst weakness is obviously that they promote people like Sten to the title of Arishock. I mean seriously? Don't get me wrong I like Sten a lot, but during DAO he didn't seem to have any idea about strategy at all.
He is after all the one who complains that you move away from the darkspawn instead of heading south towards he archdemon. I mean yes sure Sten I'll lead my party of 8 people right through the Darkspawn horde and destroy the archdemon in an frontal assault. No, I definitely don't need allies for that one.

Seriously, why does that guy get promoted? What are his achievements? From the qunari point of view he lost his entire squad and then proceeded to waste an entire year in some backwater country in the south for answering a question that he could have answered by simply going to Antiva (the closest Andratian nation that isn't at war with them) and reading a history book about the blights.

More serious weaknesess of the qunari:
They don't have any useful mages in their arm and therefore have a huge disatvantage on the magical ground. But they have better technolgy to compensate for that.
Also so far they completely and utterly sucked at diplomacy. The Arishock is the most noteable example of that. You can't just come to another country, tell their political leaders some obvious lies, ignore their laws (even if they do suck), demand that they follow your laws instead and try to take over their city. How could he even think that he could pull that one off with his few soldiers? Okay the city guards are a complete waste of space (sorry Aveline, but you know its true) but even if Hawke wasn't there I highly suspect that Meredith and her templars would have taken him out anyways.

[Navasha]

The big flaw is that this is fiction, not reality. A society like the Qun would never function in reality (at least not with humans). The only way such a society would function is if the qunari (race) are genetically structured to act against their own individual drives, such as we see with bees or ants.

Ultimately their worst weakness is taking in members of other races that CLEARLY are not genetically pre-dispositioned to act in a collective society. All those humans and elven converts will eventually see the 'role' they have been given as unfulfilling and want more. That is human nature. It is what makes us advance and grow and not stagnate.

They will have rebellions and uprisings to contend with eventually, if this were reality. The Qun society could only ever exist in fiction, and because of that, many of their weakness just seem to be written out of the equation.

[Knight of Dane]

I think people underestimate the way a society can work.

[mikeymoonshine]

Sentinel358 wrote...

A lot of these "weaknesses" arent really unique to the Qunari though, like yes they would be defeated if their military force was destoryed, but wouldnt any other nation? When did qunari have a weakness to magic? Its not the "kryptonite" so to speak, of qunari, they also use it along with gunpowder the only reason they lost so much ground is because had several exhaulted marches aimed at them. Tevinter still hasnt recovered from their invasion.

I dont see why following the Qun doesnt allow adaption. They have engineers who successfully created gunpowder, medical knowledge that surpasses every other nation, and a work ethic that is second to none. Attaining new knowledge is not effected by their methods, what in the Qun would prevent progression?

This,

Every nation has vital parts it needs to function even they don't work as strictly and efficiantly as the Qunari. 

Also it's confusing because of what Sten said to the female warden about women not fighting and also about people only doing what their assigned roles are. I don't think the Qun actually bans women or anyone from fighting it's just not their role to be in the millitery. There are other jobs that can involve fighting though, Tallis for example can fight along with all of the ben-hassrath and Rasaan had a fight with Isabella so she is obviously not banned. 

I guess the Qunari would not be able to send civilians out out to fight other nations if their army was completely destroyed but I am sure anyone under the Qun would be able to defend their homeland from an attack.

So it's not much of a disadvantage.  

I think the Qunari are being set up as this impossible enemy that will eventually invade for a reason though. 

[Giant ambush beetle]

Thats what plagues conventional military today -to a degree- when fighting enemies using asymmetric and guerrilla tactics warfare, conventional tactics don't really work.

[SuperSitzkrieg]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Also, if there will be a fourth game in this franchise, I hope it is about a full scale invasion of the Qunari.

                                                                                                                                                                                                             Mike laidlaw said that they have a 5 game plan.

Modifié par Comedicsteeler-MG4_LIFE, 09 février 2014 - 02:48 .

[kuro_sasori]

Comedicsteeler-MG4_LIFE wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Also, if there will be a fourth game in this franchise, I hope it is about a full scale invasion of the Qunari.

                                                                                                                                                                                                             David Gaider said that they have a 5 game plan.

When did he say that? Is there any link you can provide to verify that?

[SuperSitzkrieg]

kuroi_sasori wrote...

Comedicsteeler-MG4_LIFE wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Also, if there will be a fourth game in this franchise, I hope it is about a full scale invasion of the Qunari.

                                                                                                                                                                                                             David Gaider said that they have a 5 game plan.

When did he say that? Is there any link you can provide to verify that?

.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes. Give me a moment to grab it. It's on gameinformers YouTube channel when they were doing interviews with Bioware for inquisition.

[SuperSitzkrieg]

And I made a mistake it was mike laidlaw lol sorry

[SuperSitzkrieg]