304 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Nuloen wrote...

i think Koslun didnt even wrote those crazy things like
put mages in chains and stitch up theyre lips and cutting theyre tongues off
or use of qamek
becouse if someone came with sutch drastical ideology he would be stoned to death
it had to be good(kind to people) at first, if someone was be able to accept it(even facizm looked as good idea at first)
but Qun became corrupted by time, by those who lead qunari and betryed them with that act(facizm was combined with racizm and nacizm)

Really isn't anything wrong with either of those ideologies, its just differences of political opinion mostly that tells folks otherwise.

Oh and victors history i guess.

[CybAnt1]

Forgive me, Master Warder, are you really saying "there's nothing wrong" with fascism or ****sm?

(Edit: I see I've hit another silly filter here, mostly due to Godwin's Law, I'm sure, so I'll use Nuloen's spelling: "Nazcism".)

I guess we should avoid real-world political arguments here, and I try, but if that was your point, no I can't just let it pass, unless you were trying to be sarcastic or ironic, and I just missed it.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 23 février 2014 - 11:49 .

[Master Warder Z_]

:/

Why would i believe there is something wrong with a perspective of viewing politics? Do i magically get to sit in judgement over how people think when i don't grasp either concept?

Can't let it pass?

Note i view National Socialism in a separate vein to...Hitler's personal variant much in the way i view Fascism in a differing light from Absolute Monarchism.

But Yes i don't view much wrong with either ideology, both are nation concentric and orientated to improving lives.

I suppose defenders of Democracies wouldn't like not being able to vote officials or things such as that personally i wouldn't view that as magically being a success in a society though.

Although i must admit i tend to be less...understanding with communism and its variants, never really was a fan.

[CybAnt1]

This is likely to lead to a real world political argument that doesn't belong on a gaming forum.

We could continue this in Off Topic, but I think neither of us wants to. For that reason, I will drop it.

P.S. my problems with ****sm and fascism are quite personal (i.e. representatives of those political systems put many of my relatives to death in concentration camps.)

My argument against them isn't merely theoretical.

But yes, I'll stop there.

[Zered]

Stay clear of corrupted ideas like nazcism, fascism or communism. Only the Qun shall grant you freedom.

[CybAnt1]

Actually, seems to me that 'Nazcism', communism, and 'Qunarism' have one trait in common: all are totalitarian political ideologies, and all three can be criticized on the same ground.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 24 février 2014 - 12:43 .

[Master Warder Z_]

CybAnt1 wrote...

This is likely to lead to a real world political argument that doesn't belong on a gaming forum.

We could continue this in Off Topic, but I think neither of us wants to. For that reason, I will drop it.

P.S. my problems with ****sm and fascism are quite personal (i.e. representatives of those political systems put many of my relatives to death in concentration camps.)

My argument against them isn't merely theoretical.

But yes, I'll stop there.

Quite agreed no point in bleeding overly for it.

Family did that quite enough a few decades back.

Oh? So odd and ironic here we sit on the opposite sides of the political spectrum when if you go back a little while in the family tree you have some folks actually working under Eichmann via state security; People think the Holocaust just magically appeared but no oh no, it was probably the single largest exercise in the destruction of our species ever orgnized to the level it was.

Lots of hard work to get it off the ground, mountains of resources, personal and a few of them i happen to be related to through blood. Lost more then them in the war though, quite a bit more family used to be much larger then it was but that's bombing campaigns for you eh? They don't care whom they kill.

And agreed i'd rather part amicablly i'd much prefer this not stretch any further then it has.

[UC SIM]

I liked the point you made about the Qun being a body,
when that body is hurt in one place it effects every other part of the body too.

Would love to see the Qun being crippled by narcotics or even red lyrium,
For example in our own history we can look to China.

When Opium started flowing into China it causes major problems - to the point where the Emperor prohibited it - something the British were not to happy about as they controlled the supply.

Britain declared war - after winning a deceive battle they sued for peace and forced China to allow the Opium back in and went as far as to demand that Britain could pay for Chinese goods with Opium instead of Silver.

I wonder what the Qun would do if it found a large portion of its work force had begun to use some form a narcotic reducing their output?
Furthermore what the suppliers would do in respawnce to the Quns actions

Modifié par UC SIM, 24 février 2014 - 01:51 .

[Nuloen]

UC SIM wrote...

I wonder what the Qun would do if it found a large portion of its work force had begun to use some form a narcotic reducing their output?
Furthermore what the suppliers would do in respawnce to the Quns actions

Those who would use that drug would be sent to reteaching, or directly to workcamps

And dealers would be eliminated as soon as possible

[Nuloen]

Master Warder Z wrote...

:/

Why would i believe there is something wrong with a perspective of viewing politics? Do i magically get to sit in judgement over how people think when i don't grasp either concept?

Can't let it pass?

Note i view National Socialism in a separate vein to...Hitler's personal variant much in the way i view Fascism in a differing light from Absolute Monarchism.

But Yes i don't view much wrong with either ideology, both are nation concentric and orientated to improving lives.

I suppose defenders of Democracies wouldn't like not being able to vote officials or things such as that personally i wouldn't view that as magically being a success in a society though.

Although i must admit i tend to be less...understanding with communism and its variants, never really was a fan.

Im sorry to open this again
But you completely missed my point
I wanted to say that every ideology has started on good core and thats the point where someone starts to follow that ideology
And after it will be used in real it will become corrupted by something else.
So you must look to the core of ideology, you must look at ideas that were in ideology at its very begining
Fascism-Fasces=bundle of rods/symbol of unity/-first idea/restore economic stability and make italy center of culture and art like when roman empire still existedIts end/ if i will ignore the fact that its now mixed with other ideologies/restore greatness of roman empire no matter the lives (so Koslun used Body as comparation of how it should work and over time it became main idea)

[Silent Yoker]

Modifié par Silent Yoker, 24 février 2014 - 01:14 .

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Actually, seems to me that 'Nazcism', communism, and 'Qunarism' have one trait in common: all are totalitarian political ideologies, and all three can be criticized on the same ground.

Actually, The Marxist Communism is not a totalitarian ideology, in theory

Mao and Stalin really destroyed the goodwill of Communism, Mainly because they were bloodthristy Megalomaniacs, who just wanted to be worshipped by their people , poor guys

The Original Marxist Communism says everyone should be equal, no leaders, no 'elites' of the societies, no government period .

So, Qunari are not communists.

If I had to guess, I'd call them Fascistic Collective Totalitarian Government. (quite a mouthful)

[Heimdall]

Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

Actually, The Marxist Communism is not a totalitarian ideology, in theory

Mao and Stalin really destroyed the goodwill of Communism, Mainly because they were bloodthristy Megalomaniacs, who just wanted to be worshipped by their people , poor guys

The Original Marxist Communism says everyone should be equal, no leaders, no 'elites' of the societies, no government period .

So, Qunari are not communists.

If I had to guess, I'd call them Fascistic Collective Totalitarian Government. (quite a mouthful)

While I agree that Qunari aren't communists, as true Marxist Communism is anarchic, doesn't even Marx mention a stage of powerful leadership figures as transitional phase before it gets to that point (The problem being that it's virtually impossible to move from that phase to the anarchic phase, even if the anarchic phase were feasible in the real world)

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

Actually, The Marxist Communism is not a totalitarian ideology, in theory

Mao and Stalin really destroyed the goodwill of Communism, Mainly because they were bloodthristy Megalomaniacs, who just wanted to be worshipped by their people , poor guys

The Original Marxist Communism says everyone should be equal, no leaders, no 'elites' of the societies, no government period .

So, Qunari are not communists.

If I had to guess, I'd call them Fascistic Collective Totalitarian Government. (quite a mouthful)

While I agree that Qunari aren't communists, as true Marxist Communism is anarchic, doesn't even Marx mention a stage of powerful leadership figures as transitional phase before it gets to that point (The problem being that it's virtually impossible to move from that phase to the anarchic phase, even if the anarchic phase were feasible in the real world)

Well Marx had his theory of history, in which he identified different stages of government

His belief was that one day all forms of government would be abolished and people will be able to take care of
themselves (if only). The Marx Theory of historical materialism ends with full on Communism , but it talks about a transitional phase, When the material conditions would shift from Capitalism to Socialism and to finally Communism, those phases do require strong leadership (not insane). 

And the problem with Marxist-Communism is not just anarchy, It's that it requires literally unlimited resources, which is not gonna happen anytime soon.

So, the countries who have been called communists, were actually socialists.

To my knowledge only 4 countries are still called communist, (when in fact they are totalitarian socialists)
China,Vietnam,Laos and Cuba (You could call North Korea  a communist too, But I prefer the term, Psychotic Dictatorship)

Modifié par Loghain Mac-Tir, 24 février 2014 - 01:42 .

[Zered]

I pretty much don't think modern China is anything close to totalitarian socialism.

Anyways I'd keep of these topics if we don't want the mods to lock this up

[CybAnt1]

Real world politics, like I said, will get this either locked or shunted to Off Topic.

I'm staying out of them, because I've seen it happen.

I do repeat, though, that the Qun system - which, BTW, may be at this point not exactly what Koslun originally envisioned or wanted (that often happens; if Koslun actually existed, another interesting question, or perhaps he was a different figure from the way the tomes describe him today) - is at this point totalitarian.

In fact, more totalitarian than any Earth system, as it does not allow individuals to have individual names and identities, to love each other in individual relationships, or for people to pursue individual aspirations. The very fixed roles assigned to people by caste (although the dwarves have something similar and of course there is the human aristocracy) remind me very much of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World -- which was a dystopia. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 24 février 2014 - 02:17 .

[KaiserShep]

It's not entirely fixed. A human or even an elf, for example, can actually become Arishok if an individual is seen to have the merit. Casteless dwarves were typically doomed to their fate, unless the king takes drastic measures to dismantle that system, like Bhelen did.

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

Real world politics, like I said, will get this either locked or shunted to Off Topic.

Sorry, didn't know that.

I'm staying out of them, because I've seen it happen. 

I do repeat, though, that the Qun system - which, BTW, may be at this point not exactly what Koslun originally envisioned or wanted (that often happens; if Koslun actually existed, another interesting question, or perhaps he was a different figure from the way the tomes describe him today) - is at this point totalitarian.

In fact, more totalitarian than any Earth system, as it does not allow individuals to have individual names and identities, to love each other in individual relationships, or for people to pursue individual aspirations. 

But, the qunari respect Koslun's teachings, I mean they treat his tome like it was the last bible on Earth.

So, why would they corrupt his idealogy.

Also this, http://dragonage.wik..._entry:_The_Qun

I think Koslun can be compared to Gautama Buddha in real life, only they chose extremely different paths.

While Buddha was all about peace and meditation, Koslun was more like "If it's not with us, kill it'' 

Modifié par Loghain Mac-Tir, 24 février 2014 - 02:24 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

CybAnt1 wrote...

In fact, more totalitarian than any Earth system, as it does not allow individuals to have individual names and identities, to love each other in individual relationships, or for people to pursue individual aspirations. The very fixed roles assigned to people by caste (although the dwarves have something similar and of course there is the human aristocracy) remind me very much of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World -- which was a dystopia. 

There is nothing in the Qun preventing Qunari from loving eachother. What you are probably referring to is the fact that Qunari cannot have a child as a result of a romantic relationship (they can, but aren't allowed), but last time I checked having a child was not a requirement for love.
There is also nothing that prevents Qunari from having individual identities, these identities just aren't tied up in their name. Obviously Qunari have very different personalities, ergo they have differnet identities, they just do not form them the same way we are used to.

[CybAnt1]

Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

But, the qunari respect Koslun's teachings, I mean they treat his tome like it was the last bible on Earth.

So, why would they corrupt his idealogy.

Has that ever happened with any real world political or religious ideologies or philosophies? 

I think Koslun can be compared to Gautama Buddha in real life, only they chose extremely different paths.

While Buddha was all about peace and meditation, Koslun was more like "If it's not with us, kill it'' 

His story as described by that codex certainly sounds based on the story of Buddha. I don't think that is accidental on the developers' part. :innocent:

The thing is, the story of Koslun and the creation of the Qun should be treated with as much skepticism as people sometimes do the Chantry. No? 

The real question is: how much of it do you know to be true? It seems shrouded a bit, much like so much else in this gameworld. 

I ask in all seriousness: how do we even know Koslun ever existed. Hmmmmm? 

I mean, to take a relevant comparative example, yes, Taoism exists, it is at least in theory based on the Tao Te Ching, by tradition that text is associated with Lao-Tze, but scholars are not sure Lao-Tze existed (perhaps he was an amalgamation of various sages.) Get my point? 

[EmperorSahlertz]

What does it matter wether or not Koslun existed? The Qunari do not worship him as some sort of ascendant god. They venerate him yes, but his existance should not be prerequisite for that. If he existed then he is an idol, if he didn't then he is an ideal. The matter of fact is that the Qunari adhere to the teachings of his tome, which presumably was written by himself.

[CybAnt1]

There is nothing in the Qun preventing Qunari from loving eachother. What you are probably referring to is the fact that Qunari cannot have a child as a result of a romantic relationship (they can, but aren't allowed), but last time I checked having a child was not a requirement for love.

They seem to believe in loving (Platonic) friendship, but do not have family units or even "romantic relationships" as we would think of them. 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

Qunari have no "family units": they do not marry, choose partners, or even know to whom they are related. A Qunari's "family" consists of his or her coworkers.[4]Qunari generally do not associate mating with love. They feel love. They have friends. They form emotional bonds with one another. However, they simply do not sleep with each other to express it. If they do, then they are sent to be reeducated by the Ben-Hassrath. If a child is produced, the same thing happens as with all other Qunari children: it is sent to be raised by the Tamassrans, evaluated, and assigned a job. Qunari do not waste resources unnecessarily, people included.

[end]

Reproduction is bureaucratic. Sexual/romantic love seems to be forbidden, outside their system. People do not form families. All children are raised collectively. 

There is also nothing that prevents Qunari from having individual identities, these identities just aren't tied up in their name. Obviously Qunari have very different personalities, ergo they have differnet identities, they just do not form them the same way we are used to.

I guess it depends on your conception of identity. 

Personally, I would want somebody to refer to me by something other than my social/occupational role. 

Since the Qunari simply refer to people by those roles, it seems there would be no way to distinguish one Sten from another Sten. As (our DAO) Sten was his (military) role, not his "name". They might have different personalities, perhaps, but they are all referred to the same way, denying them any individuality. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 24 février 2014 - 04:58 .

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

Has that ever happened with any real world political or religious ideologies or philosophies? 

Ideologies, political or religious are usually corrupted by people who bend them for their own purposes

Take an in-game example (I would love to give a RL example but alas! )
Andraeste said 'Magic is meant to serve man and not rule over him', now I don't know in what context she said that, keep in mind Mages were some evil mofos at that time, But no one knows for sure

But the Chantry uses it to justify making the mages their b!thces

Qunari do not care for trivialities such as keeping up political and religious appearnces 

But, hey I could be wrong.
 

The real question is: how much of it do you know to be true? It seems shrouded a bit, much like so much else in this gameworld. 

I ask in all seriousness: how do we even know Koslun ever existed. Hmmmmm? 

I mean, to take a relevant comparative example, yes, Taoism exists, it is at least in theory based on the Tao Te Ching, by tradition that text is associated with Lao-Tze, but scholars are not sure Lao-Tze existed (perhaps he was an amalgamation of various sages.) Get my point? 

We can't know for sure if he truly existed or not, but the fact remains,

Qunari are real, so the whole idea behind Qun have to come from somewhere , be it a person named Koslun or a group of people who chose the name Koslun, 

Funny thing though, Koslun is a name, Qunari do not have names, why don't they refer him by his title Ashkaari (the one who seeks) like they do with everyone else.

[EmperorSahlertz]

CybAnt1 wrote...

There is nothing in the Qun preventing Qunari from loving eachother. What you are probably referring to is the fact that Qunari cannot have a child as a result of a romantic relationship (they can, but aren't allowed), but last time I checked having a child was not a requirement for love.

They seem to believe in loving (Platonic) friendship, but do not have family units or even "romantic relationships" as we would think of them. 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

Qunari have no "family units": they do not marry, choose partners, or even know to whom they are related. A Qunari's "family" consists of his or her coworkers.[4]Qunari generally do not associate mating with love. They feel love. They have friends. They form emotional bonds with one another. However, they simply do not sleep with each other to express it. If they do, then they are sent to be reeducated by the Ben-Hassrath. If a child is produced, the same thing happens as with all other Qunari children: it is sent to be raised by the Tamassrans, evaluated, and assigned a job. Qunari do not waste resources unnecessarily, people included.

[end]

Reproduction is bureaucratic. Sexual/romantic love seems to be forbidden, outside their system. People do not form families. All children are raised collectively. 

All which simply proves what I said. Qunari are allowed to love.

CybAnt1 wrote...

There is also nothing that prevents Qunari from having individual identities, these identities just aren't tied up in their name. Obviously Qunari have very different personalities, ergo they have differnet identities, they just do not form them the same way we are used to.

I guess it depends on your conception of identity. 

Personally, I would want somebody to refer to me by something other than my social/occupational role. 

Since the Qunari simply refer to people by those roles, it seems there would be no way to distinguish one Sten from another Sten. As (our DAO) Sten was his (military) role, not his "name". They might have different personalities, perhaps, but they are all referred to the same way, denying them any individuality. 

Of course you would, you have been born and bred to identify yourself with your name. This is partially what makes the Qunari seem alien to us. Qunari can make a distinction between eachother when they feel they need to. However, often a Sten would be as good as any other, making such distinction meaningless to the Qunari.

Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

Funny thing though, Koslun is a name, Qunari do not have names, why don't they refer him by his title Ashkaari (the one who seeks) like they do with everyone else.

They do. They call him the Ashkaari. His tome is however called the Tome of Koslun, probably becase a distinction was needed, since there ahve been other Ashkaaris since, who have probably made tomes of their own.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 février 2014 - 05:10 .

[CybAnt1]

All which simply proves what I said. Qunari are allowed to love.

Their friends, yes. But they cannot take romantic/sexual "lovers". Those relationships are not respected by the Qun. 

Nor do they have family or relatives to love, as, per se, they do not have families, or relatives (at least that are known to them, anyway). 

Qunari can make a distinction between each other when they feel they need to. 

Well, clearly they have idiosyncratic physical appearances, all Stens do not look alike, all Arishoks would not either, nor would all Ashkaari or Ben-Hassrath or Tamrassans. 

I'm sure they can tell each other apart. There must be circumstances where they need to. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 24 février 2014 - 05:20 .