304 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Weakness doesnt exist in the Qun, it only exists in those who refuse to submit to it

The Qun is but a miserable system. Thedas shall never fall to it!

[Hellion Rex]

I think one of the devs or lore sources said that most Qunari either don't speak common or don't speak it well. And being unable to speak it well is humiliating for a culture that prides itself on mastering skills.

"Few among the Qun's people speak the common tongue, and fewer speak it well. In a culture that strives for mastery, to have only a passable degree of skill is perhaps embarrassing, so Qunari often keep quiet among foreigners."

[SerCambria358]

The Qun is but a miserable system. Thedas shall never fall to it!

Miserable only to the ignorant, Thedas will submit!

[Hellion Rex]

Miserable only to the ignorant.

...talk to me when you fix your damn mage policy.

[SerCambria358]

...talk to me when you fix your damn mage policy.

You will all be grateful one day

[Cobra's_back]

Weakness doesnt exist in the Qun, it only exists in those who refuse to submit to it

 

Qun has a fatal error. It is not adaptive. It is inflexible. Weaknesses that an enemy could use.

[SerCambria358]

Qun has a fatal error. It is not adaptive. It is inflexible. Weaknesses that an enemy could use.

An enemy cannot use that as an advantage.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

An enemy cannot use that as an advantage.

I dunno. Take out a Qunari's ship's carpenters, and they're without them for as long as it takes to get new ones where a Thedasian ship might have a sailor or two who can do a passable job. Meanwhile, if you gigure out an effective way to hit the Qunari formations, they may or may not be able to respond effectively. And if you figure out a weakness to the Saarebas's techniques they might never be able to adapt, since magical advancement seems to be a big taboo. Using an enemy's inflexibility as an advantage is easier than you give it credit for.

[SerCambria358]

I dunno. Take out a Qunari's ship's carpenters, and they're without them for as long as it takes to get new ones where a Thedasian ship might have a sailor or two who can do a passable job. Meanwhile, if you gigure out an effective way to hit the Qunari formations, they may or may not be able to respond effectively. And if you figure out a weakness to the Saarebas's techniques they might never be able to adapt, since magical advancement seems to be a big taboo. Using an enemy's inflexibility as an advantage is easier than you give it credit for.

I see your point but thats just making the assumption that they dont prepare for these issues, plus cultural flexibility is different from flexibility on the battlefield, at least in this case. We have no idea if they prepare others for such a situation, i see no reason why they cant adapt when it comes to tactics, and saarebas's are considered dangerous but that doesnt mean they're against taming their abilities to some extent.

[Tevinter Soldier]

The less flexible is a glaring weakness but on a strategic level, the Qun basically instructs the Qunari to attack, invade take over and force the Qun down everybody's throat.

This has led the Qunari to have a massive military failure in its first attempt to take thedas, like it or not it was the Qunari's war and they lost.

The peace treaty was signed the Qunari stopped attacking, it doesnt matter as to why the treaty was signed the fact that they found themselves in a position where they signed. The Qunari system failed.

This has followed with a 200 year war with tevinter the result is no real ground gained other then seheron where far from being successful after,30 years of control they are still being harassed by rebels who are now know around thedas as the fog warriors.

Next Kirkwall disaster, more men went rogue then people converted they lost their Arishok and lost any hope of diplomatic strength and trust they could have otherwise utilised had the Qun not be so retarded.

Even Sten tells you it's only a matter of time until the Qunari attack again, this is because they are forced to by the demands of the Qun. This system is doomed to failure no matter how patient they may be they must attack at some point this leads to societal upheval, because debate will eventually devide the leaders as to wether they can or cannot succeed.

Worse still is the fact that the entire system is based on being "superior" if the demands of the Qun cannot be met because the Qunari don't have the men or resources to win this war, it raises questions wether the Qun is actually superior eventually lead to some doubting the Qun possible even the heads of the Qun.

The only way to suppress these doubts is to serve the highest tenant of the Qun war it is at the very basic level little more then a militant philosophy Bo matter how well dressed up, the Qun is a war machine everyone has there part to play but ultimately all these parts serve one function driving the war machine forward.

The longer it sits with heretics on its boarders the worse state the Qunari are in. If the Qunari face an enemy they cannot over come through brute force there is envitably one outcome, the Qunari will doom itself to a war where it will be destroyed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I see your point but thats just making the assumption that they dont prepare for these issues, plus cultural flexibility is different from flexibility on the battlefield, at least in this case. We have no idea if they prepare others for such a situation, i see no reason why they cant adapt when it comes to tactics, and saarebas's are considered dangerous but that doesnt mean they're against taming their abilities to some extent.

The Qunari definitely use Saarebas, and effectively, but I don't think they go out of their way to use the Saarebas as well as they can. I will however concede that I could be wrong there. As for the thing where nobody seeks the skills to step out of their role even when the collective benefits thereby, that is a developer-noted qunari weakness. (Edit: I think. I'm pretty sure I remember Mary Kirby saying that a given Qunari isn't going to be trained to do anything they weren't picked to do. That's not to say that a non-combatant won't try to bash your head in if you get the bright idea to sneak around the Qunari military, but they won't be as effective as they could be. And of course a Qunari non-carpenter wouldn't be able to do much wood-working at all.)

[SerCambria358]

The less flexible is a glaring weakness but on a strategic level, the Qun basically instructs the Qunari to attack, invade take over and force the Qun down everybody's throat.

This has led the Qunari to have a massive military failure in its first attempt to take thedas, like it or not it was the Qunari's war and they lost.

The peace treaty was signed the Qunari stopped attacking, it doesnt matter as to why the treaty was signed the fact that they found themselves in a position where they signed. The Qunari system failed.

This has followed with a 200 year war with tevinter the result is no real ground gained other then seheron where far from being successful after,30 years of control they are still being harassed by rebels who are now know around thedas as the fog warriors.

Next Kirkwall disaster, more men went rogue then people converted they lost their Arishok and lost any hope of diplomatic strength and trust they could have otherwise utilised had the Qun not be so retarded.

Even Sten tells you it's only a matter of time until the Qunari attack again, this is because they are forced to by the demands of the Qun. This system is doomed to failure no matter how patient they may be they must attack at some point this leads to societal upheval, because debate will eventually devide the leaders as to wether they can or cannot succeed.

Worse still is the fact that the entire system is based on being "superior" if the demands of the Qun cannot be met because the Qunari don't have the men or resources to win this war, it raises questions wether the Qun is actually superior eventually lead to some doubting the Qun possible even the heads of the Qun.

The only way to suppress these doubts is to serve the highest tenant of the Qun war it is at the very basic level little more then a militant philosophy Bo matter how well dressed up, the Qun is a war machine everyone has there part to play but ultimately all these parts serve one function driving the war machine forward.

The longer it sits with heretics on its boarders the worse state the Qunari are in. If the Qunari face an enemy they cannot over come through brute force there is envitably one outcome, the Qunari will doom itself to a war where it will be destroyed.

Agreeing to a treaty does not conclude failure. You said they havent gained any ground in 200 years, that's because they havent made any invasion efforts as they build their strength for THE invasion. 

 

The qunari gave up on diplomatic means since they were harassed for three years up until the point where they were offered no choice but to fight only when they were threatened for not giving up elf "criminals"(who only killed a guard because he raped their sister). Does that make them retarded?

 

You say the Qun forces them to be at war but its debatable whether thats unique to Qunari as all societies eventually fall victim to the same thing. War occurred plenty of times before Qunari arrival.

 

Who said the qunari dont have the resources to successfully invade, they've come close before.

 

At the very basic level, the Qun is not a "Militant Philosophy". 

 

I dont see why being near an enemy would make you weak, if anything it would solidify their unity keeping them on their feet

[SerCambria358]

The Qunari definitely use Saarebas, and effectively, but I don't think they go out of their way to use the Saarebas as well as they can. I will however concede that I could be wrong there. As for the thing where nobody seeks the skills to step out of their role even when the collective benefits thereby, that is a developer-noted qunari weakness. (Edit: I think. I'm pretty sure I remember Mary Kirby saying that a given Qunari isn't going to be trained to do anything they weren't picked to do. That's not to say that a non-combatant won't try to bash your head in if you get the bright idea to sneak around the Qunari military, but they won't be as effective as they could be. And of course a Qunari non-carpenter wouldn't be able to do much wood-working at all.)

Agreed but that example just wouldnt make sense in my opinion. If you're a sailor spending your entire life on this ship because it is your only function in this society, you're definitely going to be taught the basics of carpentry just in case such an occasion were to come up. Their culture is not flexible but they're also far from dumb, i would include carpentry as a role for sailors to learn at its basic level at the least 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Agreed but that example just wouldnt make sense in my opinion. If you're a sailor spending your entire life on this ship because it is your only function in this society, you're definitely going to be taught the basics of carpentry just in case such an occasion were to come up. Their culture is not flexible but they're also far from dumb, i would include carpentry as a role for sailors to learn at its basic level at the least 

I can't find that post, and I'm starting to think I might have misremembered some or all of it. So, you might be right as to that specific example.

[SerCambria358]

I can't find that post, and I'm starting to think I might have misremembered some or all of it. So, you might be right as to that specific example.

Eh hopefully DA:I will clear this up, if anything

[Tevinter Soldier]

Agreeing to a treaty does not conclude failure. You said they havent gained any ground in 200 years, that's because they havent made any invasion efforts as they build their strength for THE invasion.

The qunari gave up on diplomatic means since they were harassed for three years up until the point where they were offered no choice but to fight only when they were threatened for not giving up elf "criminals"(who only killed a guard because he raped their sister). Does that make them retarded?

You say the Qun forces them to be at war but its debatable whether thats unique to Qunari as all societies eventually fall victim to the same thing. War occurred plenty of times before Qunari arrival.

Who said the qunari dont have the resources to successfully invade, they've come close before.

At the very basic level, the Qun is not a "Militant Philosophy".

I dont see why being near an enemy would make you weak, if anything it would solidify their unity keeping them on their feet

Yes it was a failure what was the purpose of the Qunari's war? To invade and take over all of thedas
Was this outcome achieved? No.
Ergo they lost. The defenders succeeded in forcing the enemy to halt the invasion. There is no debating this they lost.

And you miss read what I have said far from do nothing they have engaged in a non stop war with tevinter ever since the signing. And they have failed to take tevinter. And only gained seheron which they are still dealing with rebels.

So the Qun cannot be that great if they are still dealing with an insurgency.

Next you missunderstand Kirkwall if the Qun were not inflexible they would have not only left Kirkwall earlier they would have used the opportunity to strengthen diplomatic and trade relations Via LEAVING and requesting help in finding there little book. It was there insistence to stay set up a "Qunari" sector and refusal to show any respect to the locals that lead them to be in a situation where there was tension between them and the locals. The simple fact is the Qunari attacked because their patients ran out, they could no longer accept the rule of Kirkwall for what it was and attacked. This outcome was envitable, they didn't have their book so they couldn't leave the trigger is irrelevant if they didn't leave the demands of the Qun say they must "convert"

As for resources you yourself just said they have come close before, everything we have seen.and heard even from Qunari themselves and you admit are building up for another war. If they had such resources they would already attack.

And the Qun unlike other entity's goes to war not for resources or security but to force everyone else to be the Qunari they cannot accept the existence of bas forever they must convert them by force.

Which is why the Qun is a militaristic doctrine, everything in the Qun serves the highest tenant of the Qun which is to what? Force everyone to submit to the Qun. The qunari go to war simply because their are others that don't believe in the Qun.

I know people view the Qun with romanticism but the simple fact is the highest tenant of the Qun is attack everybody and the society is geared to that.

People try to compare the Qun to various ideologues but miss the most important one any modern first world military. Everyone has their role you are assigned your role as those who do the assigning decide.

You are this role as much as you are you. It's all about discipline and service loyalty to the organisation and each other. The doctrines on efficiency and resources the fact is the Qunari in practice resembles a military organisation then anything else. It is what we would expect to see if everyone one was in the military and the military was leading rathervthen serving society.
it doesn't matter what role you serve in the military or the Qun at the end of the day they are both machines of war, Your role is to ensure it keeps running.

[Jackums]

Their narrow, dogmatic views are the source of their weakness, for one.

 

Their refusal to embrace magic is a massive vulnerability in their military might.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Their narrow, dogmatic views are the source of their weakness, for one.

 

Their refusal to embrace magic is a massive vulnerability in their military might.

It's not that big a weakness. (Largely because they do use it. They just refrain when they think they can afford to.)

[SerCambria358]

Yes it was a failure what was the purpose of the Qunari's war? To invade and take over all of thedas
Was this outcome achieved? No.
Ergo they lost. The defenders succeeded in forcing the enemy to halt the invasion. There is no debating this they lost.

And you miss read what I have said far from do nothing they have engaged in a non stop war with tevinter ever since the signing. And they have failed to take tevinter. And only gained seheron which they are still dealing with rebels.

So the Qun cannot be that great if they are still dealing with an insurgency.

Next you missunderstand Kirkwall if the Qun were not inflexible they would have not only left Kirkwall earlier they would have used the opportunity to strengthen diplomatic and trade relations Via LEAVING and requesting help in finding there little book. It was there insistence to stay set up a "Qunari" sector and refusal to show any respect to the locals that lead them to be in a situation where there was tension between them and the locals. The simple fact is the Qunari attacked because their patients ran out, they could no longer accept the rule of Kirkwall for what it was and attacked. This outcome was envitable, they didn't have their book so they couldn't leave the trigger is irrelevant if they didn't leave the demands of the Qun say they must "convert"

As for resources you yourself just said they have come close before, everything we have seen.and heard even from Qunari themselves and you admit are building up for another war. If they had such resources they would already attack.

And the Qun unlike other entity's goes to war not for resources or security but to force everyone else to be the Qunari they cannot accept the existence of bas forever they must convert them by force.

Which is why the Qun is a militaristic doctrine, everything in the Qun serves the highest tenant of the Qun which is to what? Force everyone to submit to the Qun. The qunari go to war simply because their are others that don't believe in the Qun.

I know people view the Qun with romanticism but the simple fact is the highest tenant of the Qun is attack everybody and the society is geared to that.

People try to compare the Qun to various ideologues but miss the most important one any modern first world military. Everyone has their role you are assigned your role as those who do the assigning decide.

You are this role as much as you are you. It's all about discipline and service loyalty to the organisation and each other. The doctrines on efficiency and resources the fact is the Qunari in practice resembles a military organisation then anything else. It is what we would expect to see if everyone one was in the military and the military was leading rathervthen serving society.
it doesn't matter what role you serve in the military or the Qun at the end of the day they are both machines of war, Your role is to ensure it keeps running.

I think the word you're looking for is postponed, the qunari gained two islands and annexed part of a country. Stopping an invasion doesnt conclude that the invading forces didnt partly achieve their goal, coupled with the fact that they plan on invading again shows that its only been postponed. By your standards, Thedas lost also because they failed to push the qunari out of thedas completely having to result to a peace treaty.

 

I dont see how what i said doesnt still fit what you're trying to say, being in a war doesnt automatically infer that one side is trying to gain ground. The reason tevinter is at war is because they want their land back which they continue to fail at, the qunari on the other hand have had no major attempts to conquer tevinter so mentioning that the qunari havent gained any ground is irrelevant. 

 

I dont see how having an issue with an insurgency deduces that they are weak.

 

How did the qunari not show respect to locals before being forced to fight? The qunari attacking out of a lack of patience is not a fact when they were given the ultimatum to either hand over "criminals" willingly or forcibly. You put the blame of inflexibility on the qunari while ignoring  that the guards can be accused of the same thing. Their laws permitted that the elves needed to be taken in despite their crime not being a crime to most, Aveline only pushed the issue because "the law says so" which is an inflexibility in itself.

 

Having resources and preparing them for war are two different things, thats basic knowledge, it can take years to prepare massive operations despite having the resources necessary.

 

Again, aggression towards non believers does not deduce that they are at a basic level, a military doctrine. At its basic level taking away all outside forces, they are a society revolving around discipline and order, those two traits arent synonymous to military traits. A true military doctrine would fall apart as soon as there is no one else to conquer, Qunari society does not depend on conquering.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I dunno. Take out a Qunari's ship's carpenters, and they're without them for as long as it takes to get new ones where a Thedasian ship might have a sailor or two who can do a passable job. Meanwhile, if you gigure out an effective way to hit the Qunari formations, they may or may not be able to respond effectively. And if you figure out a weakness to the Saarebas's techniques they might never be able to adapt, since magical advancement seems to be a big taboo. Using an enemy's inflexibility as an advantage is easier than you give it credit for.

So you plan is to take out an ENTIRE generation of shipwrights without the Qunari noticing? Good luck..

 

And as for the Saarebas: The Saarebas is actually one of the points that the Qunari have shown that they are capable of adapting new concepts. Initially the Saarebas were abrely able to perform combat magic, but after a few decades of war, and exposure to the effectiveness of Thedosian mages, the Qunari had trained their Saarebas to such a level that they overwhelemed Kirkwall defenders with their magical displays of power.

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

The weakness of the Qun is, that I don't like it.

[Tevinter Soldier]

I think the word you're looking for is postponed, the qunari gained two islands and annexed part of a country. Stopping an invasion doesnt conclude that the invading forces didnt partly achieve their goal, coupled with the fact that they plan on invading again shows that its only been postponed. By your standards, Thedas lost also because they failed to push the qunari out of thedas completely having to result to a peace treaty.

I dont see how what i said doesnt still fit what you're trying to say, being in a war doesnt automatically infer that one side is trying to gain ground. The reason tevinter is at war is because they want their land back which they continue to fail at, the qunari on the other hand have had no major attempts to conquer tevinter so mentioning that the qunari havent gained any ground is irrelevant.

I dont see how having an issue with an insurgency deduces that they are weak.

How did the qunari not show respect to locals before being forced to fight? The qunari attacking out of a lack of patience is not a fact when they were given the ultimatum to either hand over "criminals" willingly or forcibly. You put the blame of inflexibility on the qunari while ignoring that the guards can be accused of the same thing. Their laws permitted that the elves needed to be taken in despite their crime not being a crime to most, Aveline only pushed the issue because "the law says so" which is an inflexibility in itself.

Having resources and preparing them for war are two different things, thats basic knowledge, it can take years to prepare massive operations despite having the resources necessary.

Again, aggression towards non believers does not deduce that they are at a basic level, a military doctrine. At its basic level taking away all outside forces, they are a society revolving around discipline and order, those two traits arent synonymous to military traits. A true military doctrine would fall apart as soon as there is no one else to conquer, Qunari society does not depend on conquering.

That's like suggesting the Germans didn't lose WWI. They lost the invasion was it a complete failure where there forces were forced to pull out completely?

No, they gained some ground yes but ultimately lost the invasion. The emphasis on the defender is to halt the invasion, which they did. Yes there will be another war because the Qun demands it. You don't sign a peace treaty when your the aggressor unless you have to.

As for tevinter I specifically pointed out that tevinter lost seheron 30 years ago so of course they lost it. If one island is all they got following the war, well 200 years for an island aint very impressive.

And controlling any area for 30 years and not being able to stop an insurgency is utterly humiliating.

your missing the point with Kirkwall the qunari just rocked up on foreign land and said **** you where staying here and doing our own thing, they treated the majority of people with contempt and for years told them eventually we're going to attack you.

The guards that came to arrest the elves were following the law in the land, the term when in Rome applies. Your in a foreign land diplomatic solutions must be on the onus of the guest, would you suggest the qunari have no right to execute a mage on sight on qunari land? (hell they do it on foreign soil)

The entire incident was a result of the qunari having a doctrine of military solutions. If they were at all flexible the incident would never have happened, they never even tried to be diplomatic despite being "guests"

And really I don't know why your arguing that the qunari aren't militaristic considering everything they have done since they arrived in thedas suggests they are, they are more then just aggressive the Qun ORDERS them to wage war. All the qunari tell you this.

You say strip it back and it's not but the fact is you cannot strip it back because the qunari is a whole the individual is their only to fill a role in the whole and what is the whole? It's the Qun which dictates "take over and force everyone to follow the Qun" and have you paused to consider the reason the Qunari from par vollen haven't heard from the qunari homeland is because it's collapsed for precisely for the reasons you sighted?

How anyone can argue the Qun isn't militaristic, they might be well spoken but actions speak louder then words they are militaristic and everything they have done is in the name of the Qun therefore the Qun is militaristic, you yourself admit that the qunari are just building up for yet another war for no reason other then there Doctrine demands it must be done and your saying they don't have militaristic doctrine?

[Cobra's_back]

I see your point but thats just making the assumption that they dont prepare for these issues, plus cultural flexibility is different from flexibility on the battlefield, at least in this case. We have no idea if they prepare others for such a situation, i see no reason why they cant adapt when it comes to tactics, and saarebas's are considered dangerous but that doesnt mean they're against taming their abilities to some extent.

 

Look how they handled their people in Kirkwall for three years. Not a very good use of their time. How did they prepare for this? 

 

Remember Sten he was a valued resource. He lost his sword and his life was forfeited if he returned. It took a Grey Warden to save him as a valuable resource.

[Mistic]

That's like suggesting the Germans didn't lose WWI. They lost the invasion was it a complete failure where there forces were forced to pull out completely?

 

To be honest, Germany suffered territorial losses because of the WWI. The Qunari, who had nothing until then, got Par Vollen. But yeah, their main objective wasn't achieved, so it's still a loss.
 

And controlling any area for 30 years and not being able to stop an insurgency is utterly humiliating.

 

Not that any other country fares better. Orlais lost Ferelden after decades of conquest, Nevarra is struggling to assimilate the former Orlesian lands it conquered not long ago, Tevinter was the most powerful nation in Thedas but now is a vestigial empire... The list is long.

 

The guards that came to arrest the elves were following the law in the land, the term when in Rome applies. Your in a foreign land diplomatic solutions must be on the onus of the guest, would you suggest the qunari have no right to execute a mage on sight on qunari land? (hell they do it on foreign soil)

 

Depending on the context. Is it really foreign soil? Did DA2 make it clear if the Qunari compound was to be considered just a "hotel" or an embassy? Embassies are considered part of their country's territory, so the context there is important.

 

How anyone can argue the Qun isn't militaristic, they might be well spoken but actions speak louder then words they are militaristic and everything they have done is in the name of the Qun therefore the Qun is militaristic, you yourself admit that the qunari are just building up for yet another war for no reason other then there Doctrine demands it must be done and your saying they don't have militaristic doctrine?

 

Keep in mind that every Qunari we have met until now, with the exception of Tallis, was part of the military, so their viewpoint about these issues will be more narrow-minded, especially since Qunari specialize for life in a certain activity. It makes sense for the military to be militaristic, don't you think so? Tallis wasn't really militaristic.

 

Also, "conversion by the sword" is nothing new in Thedas. The Chantry has done the same several times and its doctrine also calls for global conversion.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So you plan is to take out an ENTIRE generation of shipwrights without the Qunari noticing? Good luck..

 

And as for the Saarebas: The Saarebas is actually one of the points that the Qunari have shown that they are capable of adapting new concepts. Initially the Saarebas were abrely able to perform combat magic, but after a few decades of war, and exposure to the effectiveness of Thedosian mages, the Qunari had trained their Saarebas to such a level that they overwhelemed Kirkwall defenders with their magical displays of power.

As for the Saarebas, granted.

 

As for the ENTIRE generation of shipwrights, that's a bigger scale than I was thinking. I just figured if you're shooting arrows at the ship or something, you aim for them preferentially so as to leave that ship without them until they have a chance to rebuild. That way, even if they successfully flee (or outright win, which is something the Qunari tend to do in naval warfare) they can't repair anything like as effectively.