304 réponses à ce sujet

[Shark17676]

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

"We know that Qunari are uniquely vulnerable to magic and that it was
mages that brought the fight to the standstill and the Kirkwall mages
played a big part when Qunari invaded there. & Tevinter, it is magic
that is keeping Qunari at bay. Realistically, all that is needed to
cripple the Qunari millitary is more magic. In DA:I, the Veil is torn so
there's that. & mages are now sort of dependent."

If you read in between the lines of some of the codex entries, it appears that the Qunari stopped the war for actual "humanitarian" reasons. They probably could have won the war IMO.

"The war drained the resources of every nation in Thedas, leaving most on the brink of collapse. For the giants, it did not appear to be the damage to their armada or the loss of their soldiers, but the terrible toll upon the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat. When the Third New Exalted March had all but massacred the people of Kont-aar without even chipping the Qunari occupying force, the giants finally withdrew. "

Said it multiple times before and i will likely say it many times in the future to Qunari defenders.

They were losing that war; horribly by the end of it.

Sure you can ignore the complete and utter failure of their gambit through the Freemarches to take pressure off of Antiva and Ravain *Both of which were falling into Thedosian hands again) Or the defeat of their Armada in the end game of said campaign.

But in the final hour of that war? 

The Map was clear, Thedas was uniting and pulling together, The Free Marches kicked the Qunari out, their Armada was a splintered Wreck their Armies were either undeployed or completely in retreat in everywhere besides Nevarra (Which only got a token probe the entire war anyway).

Crud by the time peace was sued for you could agrue Thedas was bankrupt but the Qunari were broken, Had Thedas the resources to keep fighting back then i have no doubt they would have and completely wiped that scourge from existance.

Perhaps one day that mistake will be rectified.

So since every single source that we have states that the Qunari war machine seemed completely unaffected despite the loses they suffered, you choose to completely ignore them, because you THINK you know better?

I am sorry but I am gonna go with the in-game sources..

Right, The collapse of logistic lines, the failure of offenses and the complete losses of entire fleets would cripple any faction in a war save the Qunari.

:/

If you even vaguely look beyond the accounts mentioned in the world of thedas, the codexes and apply even a modicum of thought to the Qunari wars you see that it is as exactly as i stated it.

The Qunari on everything besides paper; Lost that war.

No matter how intelligently you attempt to spin it, none of your claims are substantiated.  You are going entirely off of your own theories and fanon.  You're only seeing what you want to see.

[Vandicus]

The Qunari military seem remarkably inefficient. I imagine they would've been trounced had they not been invading a feudal society by surprise. As it were, they failed to accomplish anything of significance during their initial invasion, not even successfully subjugating the one major force that they did defeat. I suspect their stringent and tradition bound military structure impairs their ability to fight as much as the preference for noble leadership in Thedosian society(why Fereldan's uprising suceeded).

[Master Warder Z_]

Shark17676 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

"We know that Qunari are uniquely vulnerable to magic and that it was
mages that brought the fight to the standstill and the Kirkwall mages
played a big part when Qunari invaded there. & Tevinter, it is magic
that is keeping Qunari at bay. Realistically, all that is needed to
cripple the Qunari millitary is more magic. In DA:I, the Veil is torn so
there's that. & mages are now sort of dependent."

If you read in between the lines of some of the codex entries, it appears that the Qunari stopped the war for actual "humanitarian" reasons. They probably could have won the war IMO.

"The war drained the resources of every nation in Thedas, leaving most on the brink of collapse. For the giants, it did not appear to be the damage to their armada or the loss of their soldiers, but the terrible toll upon the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat. When the Third New Exalted March had all but massacred the people of Kont-aar without even chipping the Qunari occupying force, the giants finally withdrew. "

Said it multiple times before and i will likely say it many times in the future to Qunari defenders.

They were losing that war; horribly by the end of it.

Sure you can ignore the complete and utter failure of their gambit through the Freemarches to take pressure off of Antiva and Ravain *Both of which were falling into Thedosian hands again) Or the defeat of their Armada in the end game of said campaign.

But in the final hour of that war? 

The Map was clear, Thedas was uniting and pulling together, The Free Marches kicked the Qunari out, their Armada was a splintered Wreck their Armies were either undeployed or completely in retreat in everywhere besides Nevarra (Which only got a token probe the entire war anyway).

Crud by the time peace was sued for you could agrue Thedas was bankrupt but the Qunari were broken, Had Thedas the resources to keep fighting back then i have no doubt they would have and completely wiped that scourge from existance.

Perhaps one day that mistake will be rectified.

So since every single source that we have states that the Qunari war machine seemed completely unaffected despite the loses they suffered, you choose to completely ignore them, because you THINK you know better?

I am sorry but I am gonna go with the in-game sources..

Right, The collapse of logistic lines, the failure of offenses and the complete losses of entire fleets would cripple any faction in a war save the Qunari.

:/

If you even vaguely look beyond the accounts mentioned in the world of thedas, the codexes and apply even a modicum of thought to the Qunari wars you see that it is as exactly as i stated it.

The Qunari on everything besides paper; Lost that war.

No matter how intelligently you attempt to spin it, none of your claims are substantiated.  You are going entirely off of your own theories and fanon.  You're only seeing what you want to see.

Your completely wrong about that given that while yes i have actually applied though to the Lore i haven't spun it at all.

due to the failure of the second exalted march with much antiva falling back into Qunari hands which allowed them to their final penultimate gambit of the war the invasion of the Freemarches presumbly to relieve their desperate and failing supplylines feeding men and equipment to Ravain and Antiva was rapidly as it would arrive.

The need for this can of course be traced back to several major naval defeats the Qunari and their occupied ports were facing, while Qunari dreadnaughts were the best thing to have in wartime oceans they weren't as swift or capable as the Pirate armada assembled and funded by Thedas which struck brutally in 7:78 Storm and completely retake Es****ch from the Qunari defeating their host utterly.

And of course we all know that due to Qunari Spellcraft KIrkwall fell for a time to the Qunari while Starkhaven the other targeted invasion site repelled the invasion attempt. But in 7:60 Storm the doom that many had been seeking for the Qunari came to them.

The Empire of Orlais finally arose and while temporaly leaving its flanks in Antiva scant invaded the Free Marches and promptly seized Kirkwall where it took it on as a territory; With their final gambit to reinforce their failing armies on foreign shores the end of the war came swiftly.

In 7:84 Storm the Qunari were in effect in full retreat and their armies were only active in a handful of locations bogged down fighting the armies Thedas kept throwing them.

The World of Thedas describes the Qunari wars in MUCH better detail but even the Wiki speaks pretty plainly of pretty much everything i just stated.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari_Wars

So again ._. Not really fabricating anything, just applying thought to it.

It took every one and their brother working together and throwing armies at them; but in essence?

The Oxmen lost their war, and lost it horribly enough that they stuck to their treaty for centuries.

[Wulfram]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

They are a bit more dystopic than that. The Qunari are outright paranoid about mages even in the context of mages being truly dangerous in this setting, and Mary Kirby (who I think is in charge of writing the rules of their society) outright stated that she wouldn't want to live in it.

Their mage paranoia I'd class as part of the "lack of freedom" thing.

Qunari society is certainly a dystopia, but an idealised one.  Their dystopian nature is enhanced by their near perfect success in carrying out their ideology.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Wulfram wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

They are a bit more dystopic than that. The Qunari are outright paranoid about mages even in the context of mages being truly dangerous in this setting, and Mary Kirby (who I think is in charge of writing the rules of their society) outright stated that she wouldn't want to live in it.

Their mage paranoia I'd class as part of the "lack of freedom" thing.

Part of it is that. But there's also a liberal dash of the complete conviction of the higher ups that they're right, ironically juxtaposed with a belief that from all the evidence we've been given is simply wrong.

Qunari society is certainly a dystopia, but an idealised one.  Their dystopian nature is enhanced by their near perfect success in carrying out their ideology.

Not really. The flaws of their philosophy are pretty obvious in the way the Qun's rules treat Sten, Ketojan, and the Arishok, to the point of each of them attempting (and in most cases succeeding in) suicide. (Unless you have a better word for going 1-on-1 against Hawke.) And the devs do nothing to make this seem justifiable in any media they provide. (Apart from Ketojan's treatment, though even that isn't shown as unqualifiably okay; it's worse than the Circles, which Gaider notes can be construed as excessive.) I'll grant that there are numerous ways in which the average Qunari's life is better than the average Thedasian's, but take this sentence in context before you say that it indicates anything.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 février 2014 - 08:06 .

[Sentinel358]

^what flaws in qunari society lead them to contemplating suicide?

[Master Warder Z_]

Sentinel358 wrote...

^what flaws in qunari society lead them to contemplating suicide?

That they would rather be dead then serve that insufferable military junta one second longer? 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...

^what flaws in qunari society lead them to contemplating suicide?

That they would rather be dead then serve that insufferable military junta one second longer? 

No, rather the opposite of that. It was that they had no identity outside of the junta, and that through no real fault of their own that junta rejected them. Sten lost a blade after barely surviving a battle that should have killed him, Ketojan was a mage whose Templar was killed, and the Arishok was unable to find an important book. None of them had the option of returning home, and they each attempted suicide in various ways. (Edit: Note that that's a slight step beyond contemplation.) Ketojan always succeeds, the Arishok I think usually succeeds, and Sten I think depends on the player.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 février 2014 - 08:23 .

[Sentinel358]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...

^what flaws in qunari society lead them to contemplating suicide?

That they would rather be dead then serve that insufferable military junta one second longer? 

No, rather the opposite of that. It was that they had no identity outside of the junta, and that through no real fault of their own that junta rejected them. Sten lost a blade after barely surviving a battle that should have killed him, Ketojan was a mage whose Templar was killed, and the Arishok was unable to find an important book. None of them had the option of returning home, and they each attempted suicide in various ways. (Edit: Note that that's a slight step beyond contemplation.) Ketojan always succeeds, the Arishok I think usually succeeds, and Sten I think depends on the player.

How did the Arishok try to commit suicide? By storming kirkwall? But to the point i dont see it as a flaw, it may be wrong from our perspective but its not a flaw by any means really

Modifié par Sentinel358, 10 février 2014 - 08:28 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sentinel358 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...

^what flaws in qunari society lead them to contemplating suicide?

That they would rather be dead then serve that insufferable military junta one second longer? 

No, rather the opposite of that. It was that they had no identity outside of the junta, and that through no real fault of their own that junta rejected them. Sten lost a blade after barely surviving a battle that should have killed him, Ketojan was a mage whose Templar was killed, and the Arishok was unable to find an important book. None of them had the option of returning home, and they each attempted suicide in various ways. (Edit: Note that that's a slight step beyond contemplation.) Ketojan always succeeds, the Arishok I think usually succeeds, and Sten I think depends on the player.

How did the Arishok try to commit suicide? By storming kirkwall? 

More specifically, he screwed with Hawke. Say what you will, he's good at killing.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 février 2014 - 08:32 .

[Sentinel358]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...

^what flaws in qunari society lead them to contemplating suicide?

That they would rather be dead then serve that insufferable military junta one second longer? 

No, rather the opposite of that. It was that they had no identity outside of the junta, and that through no real fault of their own that junta rejected them. Sten lost a blade after barely surviving a battle that should have killed him, Ketojan was a mage whose Templar was killed, and the Arishok was unable to find an important book. None of them had the option of returning home, and they each attempted suicide in various ways. (Edit: Note that that's a slight step beyond contemplation.) Ketojan always succeeds, the Arishok I think usually succeeds, and Sten I think depends on the player.

How did the Arishok try to commit suicide? By storming kirkwall? 

More specifically, he screwed with Hawke. Say what you will, he's good at killing.

Lol not suicide but lets be honest, how can someone who was literally bred to do what he does, lose to someone who was raised on a farm

[The Baconer]

Sentinel358 wrote...
Lol not suicide but lets be honest, how can someone who was literally bred to do what he does, lose to someone who was raised on a farm

Magic, *****es.

[Sentinel358]

The Baconer wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...
Lol not suicide but lets be honest, how can someone who was literally bred to do what he does, lose to someone who was raised on a farm

Magic, *****es.

Assuming he was a mage though, apparently he was supposed ti have anti magic spells which wouldve been ridiculous 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sentinel358 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...
Lol not suicide but lets be honest, how can someone who was literally bred to do what he does, lose to someone who was raised on a farm

Magic, *****es.

Assuming he was a mage though, apparently he was supposed ti have anti magic spells which wouldve been ridiculous 

You mean in the trailer? I took that as the same sort of trick the Templars have (and a bad sign for the next Exalted March, since as I'd previously noted one of the big advantages the Chantries had was that they use magic better.) At any rate, that clearly has no bearing at all on what actually happens in-game.

As for the Arishok losing to a farm boy, that is a bit of a laugh. Even if he hadn't, though, (and I'll concede that this only looks completely inevitable in the context of Varric's narration and the stuff Hawke hadn't done yet at this point) this would have provoked an Exalted March. Leiliana notes the possibility of one over the events that lead to the final battle, and that's a much less clear reason to do such a thing than a Qunari breach of the Llomeryn Accords.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 février 2014 - 08:52 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know, now I'm imagining the Arishok using all of Zod's lines when over the course of his quest to find Isabella and reclaim the Tome of Koslun. It works better than I expected.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 10 février 2014 - 08:52 .

[Sentinel358]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...
Lol not suicide but lets be honest, how can someone who was literally bred to do what he does, lose to someone who was raised on a farm

Magic, *****es.

Assuming he was a mage though, apparently he was supposed ti have anti magic spells which wouldve been ridiculous 

You mean in the trailer? I took that as the same sort of trick the Templars have (and a bad sign for the next Exalted March, since as I'd previously noted one of the big advantages the Chantries had was that they use magic better.) At any rate, that clearly has no bearing at all on what actually happens in-game.

It was something read a while back, probably false, either way it would be very over powered

[Grieving Natashina]

There is a good reason for that. Ever since even the SNES era:Many times, PCs will be way overpowered in trailers and cut scenes.

Here's the description:

The character is powerful. Really powerful. Like, destroying-galaxies powerful. In fact, they could probably win the entire game by flexing their muscles......y'know, if they actually had these powers available in the gameplay. Outside cutscenes, they have less impressive powers. How powerful the character is in battle sometimes seems inversely proportional to how strong they are outside it. In negative situations, this character is Overrated And Underleveled.

Modifié par Starsyn, 10 février 2014 - 09:02 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Magic, no doubt.

They hold back their mages even more than the 'order, and Circle mages are weaker than their freer counterparts.

Gotta think that -- if they had a more open-minded approach to magic -- they'd be equipped to conquer Tevinter.

[Anvos]

Honestly I'd say that one of their greatest weaknesses is their mage phobia as they've spent 300 years in war against a mage nation meaning while Tevintar is free to have their blood mages and agents steal as many secrets of gun powder and other more advanced technology and sciences anything they learn of Tevintar's magic largely has to be thrown in the heresy pile since using it would require letting their mages speak and have freedom.

I find it seriously doubtful if we ever see the true legions of tevintar that they won't have gunpowder weaponry at least equal to if not greater than the qunari from magi tech hybridization.

Modifié par Anvos, 11 février 2014 - 07:06 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Anvos wrote...

Honestly I'd say that one of their greatest weaknesses is their mage phobia as they've spent 300 years in war against a mage nation meaning while Tevintar is free to have their blood mages and agents steal as many secrets of gun powder and other more advanced technology and sciences anything they learn of Tevintar's magic largely has to be thrown in the heresy pile since using it would require letting their mages speak and have freedom.

Probably, but at the same time their mages aren't as trampled as you seem to think. They are willing to use magic, it's just that their mages are heavily restricted and apparently not allowed to grow as powerful as the Circle mages. Apparently the first time they took Kirkwall it was largely due to magic. So, while they probably would do exactly what you're describing, they aren't 100% bound to.

Sentinel358 wrote...

It was something read a while back, probably false, either way it would be very over powered

I assure you there was a trailer in which the Arishok was throwing around anti-magic. Though that doesn't exactly leave him all that overpowered relative to what the trailer's Hawke was throwing around.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 février 2014 - 08:06 .

[Jaspe84]

Everything and Everyone has a weakness, just have to find it and exploit it.

[Trolldrool]

I know it's popular and exciting to think of the battle itself as the biggest field of death, but in medieval warfare this is inaccurate. The majority of deaths came from disease, infections and lack of proper hygiene. And out of all the peoples in Thedas, the Qunari have the superior knowledge in combating all three (which are arguably the same). Magic won't be much good if the human casualties to disease exceed the Qunari losses before and after battles. I would argue that spirit healers would be much more useful than someone that can cast a maelstrom of fire

Also I specify human forces because as we've seen in Ferelden and Kirkwall, while there are individual elves that know how to fight that the guard won't cross, there aren't any of them in the army or the city watch and in the alieneges, elves aren't even expected to have weapons, let alone know how to use them. The only reason the Dalish fought in the Blight was to honour a debt with the Wardens and the humans only tolerated their presence while the darkspawn were a threat.

[fhs33721]

Trolldrool wrote...

I know it's popular and exciting to think of the battle itself as the biggest field of death, but in medieval warfare this is inaccurate. The majority of deaths came from disease, infections and lack of proper hygiene. And out of all the peoples in Thedas, the Qunari have the superior knowledge in combating all three (which are arguably the same). Magic won't be much good if the human casualties to disease exceed the Qunari losses before and after battles. I would argue that spirit healers would be much more useful than someone that can cast a maelstrom of fire

Also I specify human forces because as we've seen in Ferelden and Kirkwall, while there are individual elves that know how to fight that the guard won't cross, there aren't any of them in the army or the city watch and in the alieneges, elves aren't even expected to have weapons, let alone know how to use them. The only reason the Dalish fought in the Blight was to honour a debt with the Wardens and the humans only tolerated their presence while the darkspawn were a threat.

Do we even know if diseases are as much a problem in Thedas as they are in the real world? So far the only disease we have seen in game was the Darkspawn-taint.  Maybe dysentery, cholera and the like don't even exist in the DA universe.

Also elves aren't allowed to have weapons in Denerim. Probably because Vaughn doesn't want his rape victims to fight back. I dont think  we know if this applies in other cities of Thedas as well. In Kirkwall I think they were even allowed to work for the city guard (Might be only because Aveline isn't racist though). Also Loghain had elves fighting for him in "the stolen Throne" and also sometimes during Origins (Although those were always mercenaries).
Also if the qunari invade, why wouldn't the Dalish fight them. I highly doubt that they would be thrilled to convert to the qun. As much as they dislike the humans, qunari try even harder to force their religion down everyones throat. So it is possible that the Dalish would side with the humans against the qunari.

[Trolldrool]

fhs33721 wrote...

Trolldrool wrote...

I know it's popular and exciting to think of the battle itself as the biggest field of death, but in medieval warfare this is inaccurate. The majority of deaths came from disease, infections and lack of proper hygiene. And out of all the peoples in Thedas, the Qunari have the superior knowledge in combating all three (which are arguably the same). Magic won't be much good if the human casualties to disease exceed the Qunari losses before and after battles. I would argue that spirit healers would be much more useful than someone that can cast a maelstrom of fire

Also I specify human forces because as we've seen in Ferelden and Kirkwall, while there are individual elves that know how to fight that the guard won't cross, there aren't any of them in the army or the city watch and in the alieneges, elves aren't even expected to have weapons, let alone know how to use them. The only reason the Dalish fought in the Blight was to honour a debt with the Wardens and the humans only tolerated their presence while the darkspawn were a threat.

Do we even know if diseases are as much a problem in Thedas as they are in the real world? So far the only disease we have seen in game was the Darkspawn-taint.  Maybe dysentery, cholera and the like don't even exist in the DA universe.

Also elves aren't allowed to have weapons in Denerim. Probably because Vaughn doesn't want his rape victims to fight back. I dont think  we know if this applies in other cities of Thedas as well. In Kirkwall I think they were even allowed to work for the city guard (Might be only because Aveline isn't racist though). Also Loghain had elves fighting for him in "the stolen Throne" and also sometimes during Origins (Although those were always mercenaries).
Also if the qunari invade, why wouldn't the Dalish fight them. I highly doubt that they would be thrilled to convert to the qun. As much as they dislike the humans, qunari try even harder to force their religion down everyones throat. So it is possible that the Dalish would side with the humans against the qunari.

You bring up a fair point on the diseases. I admit, that was speculation on my part due to how similar Ferelden is to medieval Europe in so many other ways, I assumed it was the same here. And because the elves in Denerim's alienage spoke of having experienced and survived many plagues already, but you brought up Vaughn who probably wouldn't care to provide the elves with medicine even if he had it.

On the Dalish however, no I'm not sure they would fight the Qunari. First of all they're not really interested in learning of any culture besides their own, so I don't think they would be aware that the Qunari forcefully indoctrinate the people they conquer. And even if they are, one of the key moments in their history is when Shartan joined Andraste to defeat the Tevinter imperium and how the Dalish were betrayed not long after for refusing to conform to the Andrastian faith. The only times they have trusted outsiders, it has been the Warden & Co. and Hawke and then just barely because their Keeper had predicted Hawke's arrival. My guess is that the Dalish would rather consider the Qunari a shemlen problem that they could avoid if they just stayed on the move.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

fhs33721 wrote...

Do we even know if diseases are as much a problem in Thedas as they are in the real world? So far the only disease we have seen in game was the Darkspawn-taint.  Maybe dysentery, cholera and the like don't even exist in the DA universe.

I seem to recall Mary Kirby saying that Qunari live longer due to having the basics of combating this kind of thing down.