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The weakness of the Qun.


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#126
Master Warder Z_

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Lord Aesir wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...

TheLittleBird wrote...

I'm sorry if I implied something else, but what I meant was that I don't think we'll see a Qunari invasion in Inquisition. I don't think they'll get crushed by the demonic hordes either, but that second option seems more likely than the first. Oh, and who's to say the Qunari still have the power they had when they crushed Tevinter during Inquisition?

Oh ok, agreed. On the second point though, is there a reason they wouldnt still have that same power? There hasnt been any major battles to weaken their resources nor has there been a change in their form of running Qunari society so if anything now that they're aware of the nations they face, i'd say they're a bigger threat. Im hoping they go into more detail about whats going on with the Qunari considering that we can now play as one

Well, no small number of people including myself predict a Qunari invasion as a centerpiece in the next DA, with a Tevinter setting.  (Which has several advantages, like not having to deal with too many of the consequences of DAI down south)

So there's that.


I am predicting it within two to three games of DAI if not sooner.

It's about time to finish that fight and be rid of those oxmen once and for all.

#127
TheLittleBird

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Sentinel358 wrote...

@LittleBird yes im aware but im curious due to the confirmation that each race gets a background quest, maybe A qunari side quest will allow us to find information that only a qunari inquisitor will have access to


Well, I guess there will be some of that, though we probably won't find out much about the Qunari (as a nation) in its current state in Inquisition.

#128
Mistic

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Lord Aesir wrote...

Well, no small number of people including myself predict a Qunari invasion as a centerpiece in the next DA, with a Tevinter setting.  (Which has several advantages, like not having to deal with too many of the consequences of DAI down south)

So there's that.

I agree with that. A new Qunari invasion has been foreshadowed since DA:O, and only the Tevinter Imperium stands in their way. Since Tevinter won't appear in Inquisition, it would be a waste not to have a Tevinter-centric installment with the Qunari war as one of the main attractions.

By the time Inquisition and the Tevinter installment are done, you may have a stabilized setting (for example, "it's canon that the Inquisition was formed and that it deals with demonic dangers, and it's canon that Tevinter or the Qunari finally won the neverending war in the north". Details are just left for the Keep).

Or maybe it's wishful thinking. I'd really like to play in the Tevinter-Qunari War.

#129
Lotion Soronarr

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The weakness of Qunari is the over-specialization they indulge in.

Specialization is for insects, not men.

#130
Zered

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Qistina wrote...

The weakness of Qunari is they are conservatives, and so they will have many rebels from their own.


Why is that? I haven't heard of any infighting inside the Qunari. Even if people abandon the Qun they leave their lands and are no longer an inside threat. 
 
For a conservative society they are still quite open about absorbing new ideas and peoples if they would benefit the Qun.
No human kingdom would be so open about accepting elves into their
ranks and granting them a decent role in society.

#131
Dean_the_Young

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Qistina wrote...

The weakness of Qunari is they are conservatives, and so they will have many rebels from their own.

Why would you think that liberals would not have many rebels from their own?

No need for outside threat to destroy them, they destroy themselves from within. It is started when a Qunari want to choose...then it go from there.

Unless the people who wouldn't tolerate their role are expelled or expel themselves, and remove themselves from the internal equation. Given the entire Valshoth concept, it certainly occurs albeit the ease of which is up to debate.

What Qunari do is they take out choices in life, so give them choices, they will break. Their strength is their certainty, when you open up many possibilities, their system will crack

The Qunari aren't indecisive, nor are they blind to possibilities. Information paralysis and option overload are no more a threat to them than anyone else.

As far as the Qunari are concerned, To Be is the only choice that matters. Everything else is simpler.

So in other word, don't be like what they expected, they will loose

That overgeneralization applies to everyone.

#132
KaiserShep

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There is no weakness, basra. You simply do not see.

#133
Zered

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#134
TheLittleBird

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michalooo wrote...

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#135
Sentinel358

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Qistina wrote...

The weakness of Qunari is they are conservatives, and so they will have many rebels from their own. No need for outside threat to destroy them, they destroy themselves from within. It is started when a Qunari want to choose...then it go from there.

What Qunari do is they take out choices in life, so give them choices, they will break. Their strength is their certainty, when you open up many possibilities, their system will crack

So in other word, don't be like what they expected, they will loose

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#136
Master Warder Z_

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KaiserShep wrote...

There is no weakness, basra. You simply do not see.


:lol:

When the Baas unite again and lay waste to the Armies of the Qun, leave their aramada's smoking burning wrecks across the trade lanes and their once mighty horde is retreating again we will see who cannot "see". 

Because as any one with a knowledge of history in DA will tell you :P Thedas wasn't the one fleeing back to where they came from in the end game of the last Qunari war.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 19 février 2014 - 08:29 .


#137
Kidd

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Master Warder Z wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

There is no weakness, basra. You simply do not see.


:lol:

When the Baas unite again and lay waste to the Armies of the Qun, leave their aramada's smoking burning wrecks across the trade lanes and their once mighty horde is retreating again we will see who cannot "see". 

Because as any one with a knowledge of history in DA will tell you :P Thedas wasn't the one fleeing back to where they came from in the end game of the last Qunari war.

I thought the Qunari retreated not due to being incapable of fighting on, but due to the expected loss of life in Thedas should the fighting continue?

#138
Master Warder Z_

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Master Warder Z wrote...

Shark17676 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

"We know that Qunari are uniquely vulnerable to magic and that it was
mages that brought the fight to the standstill and the Kirkwall mages
played a big part when Qunari invaded there. & Tevinter, it is magic
that is keeping Qunari at bay. Realistically, all that is needed to
cripple the Qunari millitary is more magic. In DA:I, the Veil is torn so
there's that. & mages are now sort of dependent."


If you read in between the lines of some of the codex entries, it appears that the Qunari stopped the war for actual "humanitarian" reasons. They probably could have won the war IMO.

"The war drained the resources of every nation in Thedas, leaving most on the brink of collapse. For the giants, it did not appear to be the damage to their armada or the loss of their soldiers, but the terrible toll upon the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat. When the Third New Exalted March had all but massacred the people of Kont-aar without even chipping the Qunari occupying force, the giants finally withdrew. "




Said it multiple times before and i will likely say it many times in the future to Qunari defenders.

They were losing that war; horribly by the end of it.

Sure you can ignore the complete and utter failure of their gambit through the Freemarches to take pressure off of Antiva and Ravain *Both of which were falling into Thedosian hands again) Or the defeat of their Armada in the end game of said campaign.

But in the final hour of that war? 

The Map was clear, Thedas was uniting and pulling together, The Free Marches kicked the Qunari out, their Armada was a splintered Wreck their Armies were either undeployed or completely in retreat in everywhere besides Nevarra (Which only got a token probe the entire war anyway).

Crud by the time peace was sued for you could agrue Thedas was bankrupt but the Qunari were broken, Had Thedas the resources to keep fighting back then i have no doubt they would have and completely wiped that scourge from existance.

Perhaps one day that mistake will be rectified.

So since every single source that we have states that the Qunari war machine seemed completely unaffected despite the loses they suffered, you choose to completely ignore them, because you THINK you know better?

I am sorry but I am gonna go with the in-game sources..


Right, The collapse of logistic lines, the failure of offenses and the complete losses of entire fleets would cripple any faction in a war save the Qunari.

:/

If you even vaguely look beyond the accounts mentioned in the world of thedas, the codexes and apply even a modicum of thought to the Qunari wars you see that it is as exactly as i stated it.

The Qunari on everything besides paper; Lost that war.


No matter how intelligently you attempt to spin it, none of your claims are substantiated.  You are going entirely off of your own theories and fanon.  You're only seeing what you want to see.


Your completely wrong about that given that while yes i have actually applied though to the Lore i haven't spun it at all.

due to the failure of the second exalted march with much antiva falling back into Qunari hands which allowed them to their final penultimate gambit of the war the invasion of the Freemarches presumbly to relieve their desperate and failing supplylines feeding men and equipment to Ravain and Antiva was rapidly as it would arrive.

The need for this can of course be traced back to several major naval defeats the Qunari and their occupied ports were facing, while Qunari dreadnaughts were the best thing to have in wartime oceans they weren't as swift or capable as the Pirate armada assembled and funded by Thedas which struck brutally in 7:78 Storm and completely retake Es****ch from the Qunari defeating their host utterly.

And of course we all know that due to Qunari Spellcraft KIrkwall fell for a time to the Qunari while Starkhaven the other targeted invasion site repelled the invasion attempt. But in 7:60 Storm the doom that many had been seeking for the Qunari came to them.

The Empire of Orlais finally arose and while temporaly leaving its flanks in Antiva scant invaded the Free Marches and promptly seized Kirkwall where it took it on as a territory; With their final gambit to reinforce their failing armies on foreign shores the end of the war came swiftly.

In 7:84 Storm the Qunari were in effect in full retreat and their armies were only active in a handful of locations bogged down fighting the armies Thedas kept throwing them.

The World of Thedas describes the Qunari wars in MUCH better detail but even the Wiki speaks pretty plainly of pretty much everything i just stated.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari_Wars

So again ._. Not really fabricating anything, just applying thought to it.

It took every one and their brother working together and throwing armies at them; but in essence?

The Oxmen lost their war, and lost it horribly enough that they stuck to their treaty for centuries.



My post earlier in the thread debunking any notion of the Qunari retreating solely for the loss of converts.

Their Navy was in splinters, Their armies in full retreat and their supply trains and logistical system were failing utterly under Thedosian numbers and magic.

If you look at it in a military light then Thedas emerged the victor in the conflict considering the Qunari did agree to sue for "peace".

As i said in the very post World of Thedas gives more insight into the Qunari wars but even the codexes reveal basically everything i stated as accepted lore.

The Qunari were losing, but Thedas was broke couldn't finish the job.

#139
Master Warder Z_

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KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

There is no weakness, basra. You simply do not see.


:lol:

When the Baas unite again and lay waste to the Armies of the Qun, leave their aramada's smoking burning wrecks across the trade lanes and their once mighty horde is retreating again we will see who cannot "see". 

Because as any one with a knowledge of history in DA will tell you :P Thedas wasn't the one fleeing back to where they came from in the end game of the last Qunari war.

I thought the Qunari retreated not due to being incapable of fighting on, but due to the expected loss of life in Thedas should the fighting continue?


Rather then explaining this with a entirely new post i will instead pull out an older post from the thread and let it explain my reasoning.

#140
EmperorSahlertz

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So you continue to believe your own head-canon over the actual stated lore of the game. Nothing has changed I guess.

#141
Master Warder Z_

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So you continue to believe your own head-canon over the actual stated lore of the game. Nothing has changed I guess.

Bioware codex's and the world of thedas along with the Prima Game Guide disagree with your notion of "head canon".

They give the events, context and result.

The events, context and result are then applied and this is the conclusion.

Sorry Qunari lovers but Bioware gave plenty of evidence to point towards the Qunari losing in the end game.

I even provided a link to that effect, the Wiki pretty back muchs everything i stated, And the WOT and Game Guide do much the same.

And as for stated lore a single codex stating "they retreated for religious reasons despite the fact their military was in shambles" doesn't magically make their military not defeated.

#142
EmperorSahlertz

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They give events, implications and perspective. You chose to interpret them one way, and somehow in your head, you make it so that all other interpretations of the given data is wrong. NOTHING in the lore supports your claim that the Qunari armies and fleets were decimated and barely in fighting shape. That is all something YOU have conjrued up in your imagination. The lore very specifically even says that this was not the case, yet you continue to say that it was. Sorry, but people really shouldn't listen to you on this matter.

All we know is that the Qunari retreated yet their armies and fighting capabilities seemed intact, DESPITE the loses they had suffered. That is it.

#143
Master Warder Z_

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They give events, implications and perspective. You chose to interpret them one way, and somehow in your head, you make it so that all other interpretations of the given data is wrong. NOTHING in the lore supports your claim that the Qunari armies and fleets were decimated and barely in fighting shape. That is all something YOU have conjrued up in your imagination. The lore very specifically even says that this was not the case, yet you continue to say that it was. Sorry, but people really shouldn't listen to you on this matter.

All we know is that the Qunari retreated yet their armies and fighting capabilities seemed intact, DESPITE the loses they had suffered. That is it.

Intact is a perspective you can glean i suppose, just not one i share considering that that we are talking about a series of conflicts that lasted a century, Military sustainablity becomes a key factor in any conflict and espeically so in a conflict that lasts anywhere near this long. Considering that sixty years before the war reached its conclusion you had the Imperium shoving the Qunari deep into their occupied territories after the Qunari failed in their conquest there, and thus with that defeat they were forced into the shifting front of Rivain, Antiva and the Freemarches.

From what can be gleaned of their war that continued within Tveinter while they conquerored quite a bit of it they continued losing control of it due to the skill and size of the armies the mage lords were able to continuiously assemble to assault them.(According to the world of Thedas page 120 the losses for both sides during the attempted seizure of tveinter were horrible) With that front going from active to closed as time pressed on, we can see why the White and Black Chantries worked together beyond mutual advantage, The Qunari had an enemy capable of besting them in their rearlines so to speak.

The Qunari were in retreat as of 7:84 Storm; And Four Years later an alliance of Raiders, Pirates and Thedosian Warships saw their navy defeated and the port of Est-Watch, Combine this with the Armada's success at plundering their supplylines and the repeated launching invasions of the Qunari Coastlands you can see a pattern emerging where their retreat can be seen as them abandoing other fronts to defend their homeland which was under repeat assault from said alliance.

With their failing lines at Rivain and the Freemarches holding or being retaken; To me its just one failure to many by the time the war ended with the signing of the Llomerryn accords.

It is i suppose a presumption given much of the war has not been dicussed and many details are absent thus far.

But's also confirmed from sources that the Qunari were losing the critical territories they had conquerored earlier in the war, I suppose the military strategist within me can connect details that would lead to the conclusion that had the war continued those losses would have eventually paved way for their defeat, although i suppose it isn't a certainity.

What is a certainity though is, Thedas was being retaken by the time the war ended; Qunari conqueroed territory by the time it ended was slim to nothing.

#144
Master Warder Z_

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Stupid post repeating -_-

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 20 février 2014 - 01:12 .


#145
EmperorSahlertz

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You can retreat without having suffered a single casualty.

#146
SgtSteel91

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The weakness of Qunari is the over-specialization they indulge in.

Specialization is for insects, not men.

Yeah, when working together in a cohesive system, they are a force to be reckoned with. But separate any part and it implodes in on itself. Just see DA2 where Qunari soldiers were stuck with no contact to the rest of the Qunari who probably had roles who could deal with their sitauation in a more tactfull manner. But they were stuck, so eventually they did what the Qun expectes them to do and fight, even with zero odds of succeding.

#147
Master Warder Z_

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can retreat without having suffered a single casualty.

They retreated with a busted navy and routed army though...

._.

#148
DarkDragon777

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The Op is basically right. Rigid deologies that are unopen to change and fail to re-adapt based on environmental factors guarantee nothing but their own destruction.

#149
EmperorSahlertz

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Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can retreat without having suffered a single casualty.

They retreated with a busted navy and routed army though...

._.

No. They did not. This is ENTIRELY something you THINK they did. NOWHERE in the actual lore of the game, does it say that their armies or fleets were destroyed or routed. They suffered casualties, Yes. But these casualties did not seem to impeede them at all.

#150
TheLastAwakening

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Master Warder Z wrote...



If you look at it in a military light then Thedas emerged the victor in the conflict considering the Qunari did agree to sue for "peace".


This means nothing. The Quanri retreating could of been because the Qun demanded it, that too could extend to this sort of peace treaty thingie. 

For example we find out in DA 2 the Arishok lost the Tome of Koslun. Lets be hypothetical and say if the Qun demanded it, the Arishok may of had some of his forces searching every hay stack for the thing instead of focusing on the war. However, we do not know how huge of an impact it meant then when they lost it but can't deny it could of played a role.

However, I'm not going to deny they were losing. The why they were losing however, I do not think is solely because of a unified Thedas. There are small things that I would argue are problems with the Qun but not necessarily weakness. The major is converting their captives which had they excuted or been more human like and manipulated for strategic purposes could of potentially outright give the Qunari the victory. 




Overall, there is no weakness in the Qun, just those who do not know or have not yet learned their place.:innocent: The Qun is the truth.

Modifié par TheLastAwakening, 20 février 2014 - 01:38 .