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[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can retreat without having suffered a single casualty.

They retreated with a busted navy and routed army though...

._.

No. They did not. This is ENTIRELY something you THINK they did. NOWHERE in the actual lore of the game, does it say that their armies or fleets were destroyed or routed. They suffered casualties, Yes. But these casualties did not seem to impeede them at all.

._. here is actual lore 

Now it may just be me but when i hear words like "massive battle" "Land changing hands" I picture decisive events personally.

The Battle of the Nocen Sea was the largest naval engagement in history and resulted in a stalemate and the destruction of many of the ships on both sides. With both sides exhausted, an impasse began.

The pirates used their stealth and trickery skill, plaguing Qunari supply lines and even launching seaborne invasions against the Qunari coast. At 7:78 Storm the raiders managed to defeat the Qunari in a massive naval battle and then take Es****ch from them, an island with strategic importance

[Grieving Natashina]

@Warder LOL interesting auto-censor there.

Modifié par Starsyn, 20 février 2014 - 01:43 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can retreat without having suffered a single casualty.

They retreated with a busted navy and routed army though...

._.

No. They did not. This is ENTIRELY something you THINK they did. NOWHERE in the actual lore of the game, does it say that their armies or fleets were destroyed or routed. They suffered casualties, Yes. But these casualties did not seem to impeede them at all.

._. here is actual lore 

Now it may just be me but when i hear words like "massive battle" "Land changing hands" I picture decisive events personally.

The Battle of the Nocen Sea was the largest naval engagement in history and resulted in a stalemate and the destruction of many of the ships on both sides. With both sides exhausted, an impasse began.

The pirates used their stealth and trickery skill, plaguing Qunari supply lines and even launching seaborne invasions against the Qunari coast. At 7:78 Storm the raiders managed to defeat the Qunari in a massive naval battle and then take Es****ch from them, an island with strategic importance

So even the links you provide shows that the QUnari were in fact NOT utterly defeated and remained combat effective, yet you keep claiming it to be so..... There can be no victory here, you may remain in dreamworld if you so desire.

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can retreat without having suffered a single casualty.

They retreated with a busted navy and routed army though...

._.

No. They did not. This is ENTIRELY something you THINK they did. NOWHERE in the actual lore of the game, does it say that their armies or fleets were destroyed or routed. They suffered casualties, Yes. But these casualties did not seem to impeede them at all.

._. here is actual lore 

Now it may just be me but when i hear words like "massive battle" "Land changing hands" I picture decisive events personally.

The Battle of the Nocen Sea was the largest naval engagement in history and resulted in a stalemate and the destruction of many of the ships on both sides. With both sides exhausted, an impasse began.

The pirates used their stealth and trickery skill, plaguing Qunari supply lines and even launching seaborne invasions against the Qunari coast. At 7:78 Storm the raiders managed to defeat the Qunari in a massive naval battle and then take Es****ch from them, an island with strategic importance

So even the links you provide shows that the QUnari were in fact NOT utterly defeated and remained combat effective, yet you keep claiming it to be so..... There can be no victory here, you may remain in dreamworld if you so desire.

So you believe a massive victory against their fleet four years after they begun their retreat from Thedas back to defend their homeland holds no impact into them suing for peace just TWO years later?

You sound like the one in the dream world freind.

[Master Warder Z_]

Starsyn wrote...

@Warder LOL interesting auto-censor there.

Happens everytime i mention that Island...

Tis odd.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Master Warder Z wrote...

So you believe a massive victory against their fleet four years after they begun their retreat from Thedas back to defend their homeland holds no impact into them suing for peace just TWO years later?

You sound like the one in the dream world freind.

If even after this "massive" defeat the Qunari fleet can still force their enemy into a stalemate, then OBVIOUSLY their fleets were still combat effective. Proving your ideas of events wrong. Again.

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

So you believe a massive victory against their fleet four years after they begun their retreat from Thedas back to defend their homeland holds no impact into them suing for peace just TWO years later?

You sound like the one in the dream world freind.

If even after this "massive" defeat the Qunari fleet can still force their enemy into a stalemate, then OBVIOUSLY their fleets were still combat effective. Proving your ideas of events wrong. Again.

...Are you talking about the first naval battle mentioned? That really doesn't apply to this dicussion, i brought it up mostly to point out there were actual battles described in lore and that happened to be a indecisve naval battle, It just took place a long time before the war ended.

Any baring or impact it likely held faded decades before the end game.

Sort of amusing if you are though considering that battle took place like in the "steel age" and the war ended in the storm age. There is a full century seperating the events.

Or if you are refering to after the second one and implying the Qunari had significant force to bring Thedas to the bargining table...(a presumption if i ever heard one) Actually according to most of the lore i've mentioned, provided links to and etc that the main reason Thedas stopped the campaigns it had been waging for over a century now.

Was because it was bankrupt, broken and would rather rebuild then finish off the Qunari on their home territory.

A constant century of warfare does it to the best of us i suppose.

Point being, it is the last known victory was given after the Qunari had abandoned their holdings in Thedas in full retreat, After getting their rears kicked out of the Free Marches by Orlais and Rivain being recaptured by Chantry forces. And considering its a decisive naval battle right at the edges of their territory, if they cannot defend their own mainland that implies to me weakness.

So either you are implying a stalemate a century past is crucial to them apparently holding their lands in spite of the fact Thedas was carrying the day at least in terms of recent known victories which to me would really bring up the question just how solid your knowledge of the Qunari war lore is. Or you agruing that inspite the of the fact there are these confirmed victories they somehow have force enough to bring thedas to bargain when every other lore states it was the fact Kingdoms, Empires and Free Cities were going bankrupt fighting this war.

Eitherway it doens't appear to me that i am "wrong" this time or before.

[TheLastAwakening]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So even the links you provide shows that the QUnari were in fact NOT utterly defeated and remained combat effective, yet you keep claiming it to be so..... There can be no victory here, you may remain in dreamworld if you so desire.

I'm all for the Qun. However, I get where Warder is coming from, the text when read does illustrate that Qunari may have started to lose the War and the only reason for Thedas not continuing to fight was to focus on rebuilding. Utter defeat, no. Combat effective? I don't know, losing a strategic point/ having a whole city liberated sort of diminishes the degree to which the Qunari remained combat effective.

There is one contridiction though, The Qunari gained and maintained Par vollen . 

[Master Warder Z_]

TheLastAwakening wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So even the links you provide shows that the QUnari were in fact NOT utterly defeated and remained combat effective, yet you keep claiming it to be so..... There can be no victory here, you may remain in dreamworld if you so desire.

I'm all for the Qun. However, I get where Warder is coming from, the text when read does illustrate that Qunari may have started to lose the War and the only reason for Thedas not continuing to fight was to focus on rebuilding. Utter defeat, no. Combat effective? I don't know, losing a strategic point/ having a whole city liberated sort of diminishes the degree to which the Qunari remained combat effective.

There is one contridiction though, The Qunari gained and maintained Par vollen . 

And Thedas got a Qunari free continent.

I think an island they had already conqueroed and was deep within their territory would be a fair trade for that although...Given how deep those raiders were able to get into their controlled waters who knows if that Island couldn't have been retaken.

Perhaps relations between the White and Black Chantries would be on a better note had the war been pushed to its conclusion one way or another.

[Sentinel358]

Master Warder Z wrote...

TheLastAwakening wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So even the links you provide shows that the QUnari were in fact NOT utterly defeated and remained combat effective, yet you keep claiming it to be so..... There can be no victory here, you may remain in dreamworld if you so desire.

I'm all for the Qun. However, I get where Warder is coming from, the text when read does illustrate that Qunari may have started to lose the War and the only reason for Thedas not continuing to fight was to focus on rebuilding. Utter defeat, no. Combat effective? I don't know, losing a strategic point/ having a whole city liberated sort of diminishes the degree to which the Qunari remained combat effective.

There is one contridiction though, The Qunari gained and maintained Par vollen . 

And Thedas got a Qunari free continent.

I think an island they had already conqueroed and was deep within their territory would be a fair trade for that although...Given how deep those raiders were able to get into their controlled waters who knows if that Island couldn't have been retaken.

Perhaps relations between the White and Black Chantries would be on a better note had the war been pushed to its conclusion one way or another.

My personal take from what i know of strategy is that the qunari were spread too thin, they're one army spreading across an entire continent, when you're spread that far facing so many threats, you'll be forced to regroup or face defeat. The qunari have undoubtedly the best and most efficient work ethic in thedas, with their forces regrouped and organized i dont think thedas could have done much to defeat them, if anything you would be another stalemate similar to the Battle of the Nocen Sea. Now that the qunari know what to expect out of thedas, an invasion probably be more brutal. The biggest factor about the qunari is that theyre unified under one nation under one military leader who leads soldiers with indominable wills. The nations of thedas can only achieve that when they become desperate and by then it could be too late.

[durasteel]

The Qunari seem to have enjoyed great success early on, but then were beaten back consistently. Since the Llomerryn Accord, the Qunari have tried repeatedly to invade Tevinter with no success whatsoever, whereas previously they conquered the entire region except of Minrathous itself.

One reasonable explanation would be that the technology and tactics used by the Qunari in their early campaigns caught the relatively unsophisticated nations of Thedas by surprise. Those nations, however, learned. In every theater of war, on land and at sea, the Qunari were beaten back as their tech and advanced tactics were understood and compensated for.

The Qunari cannot compete in terms of sheer numbers, their reproduction is governed by the Qun and their population cannot possibly grow large enough in a few generations to overcome their numerical disadvantage. They need the advantages of gunpowder and tactics if they are going to prevail, and it seems those advantages have been neutralized.

I think the odds of Thedas ever falling to Qunari aggression fall lower and lower with every battle they fight against the nations of the continent.

[durasteel]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Eitherway it doens't appear to me that i am "wrong" this time or before.

You are completely and totally wrong... about mages. About Qunari, though, you're pretty much spot on.

[Shark17676]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can retreat without having suffered a single casualty.

They retreated with a busted navy and routed army though...

._.

No. They did not. This is ENTIRELY something you THINK they did. NOWHERE in the actual lore of the game, does it say that their armies or fleets were destroyed or routed. They suffered casualties, Yes. But these casualties did not seem to impeede them at all.

That's the main problem with pretty much all of his arguments.  He comes up with his own fanon and tries to present it as fact.

[durasteel]

There is a wide gap between reasonable inference and "fanon." 

I'll grant you that "rout" might be too strong a word. The Qunari seemed to be disciplined enough to run away in an orderly fashion after getting their asses kicked.

Modifié par durasteel, 20 février 2014 - 07:47 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

TheLastAwakening wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So even the links you provide shows that the QUnari were in fact NOT utterly defeated and remained combat effective, yet you keep claiming it to be so..... There can be no victory here, you may remain in dreamworld if you so desire.

I'm all for the Qun. However, I get where Warder is coming from, the text when read does illustrate that Qunari may have started to lose the War and the only reason for Thedas not continuing to fight was to focus on rebuilding. Utter defeat, no. Combat effective? I don't know, losing a strategic point/ having a whole city liberated sort of diminishes the degree to which the Qunari remained combat effective.

There is one contridiction though, The Qunari gained and maintained Par vollen . 

Of course the Qunari lost some battles. You don't start a war expecting to come out of it undefeated. The matter of fact however remains, that no matter how many battles the Qunari lost, their capability to keep fighting remained intact. That means that the Qunari forces remained a threat throughout the war. I don't care for Master Warder Z's fan-fiction that Thedas somehow drove the Qunari to near extinction. We have in-game sources telling us that the Qunari appeared fully combat-effective no matter how many loses they suffered, yet Master Warder Z keeps imposing his own fan-fiction that the Qunari were broken and battered and barely holding together, even though it is not backed up by ANY source (quite the contrary even).
The mere fact that Thedas sued for peace instead of continueing the war is proof that the Qunari remained a capable opponent. But here again, Master Warder Z imposes his own fan-fiction and interpretations, and claim that the ONLY reason that the Thedosian nations stopped fighting was because they were tired of fighting.....

[The Elder King]

@Emperor Sahlertz: MWZ is even wrong in saying that the Thedosians were just 'tired' of fighting. The Andrastian countries (both Black and White) were on the brink of collapsing, while the qunari seems from the sources to be in better conditions.

[Zered]

The Qunari cannot compete in terms of sheer numbers, their reproduction
is governed by the Qun and their population cannot possibly grow large
enough in a few generations to overcome their numerical disadvantage.

True, but still the Qunari have means to integrate conquered peoples into their forces. Remember the elves in Kirkwall?

[aTrueFool]

durasteel wrote...

The Qunari cannot compete in terms of sheer numbers, their reproduction is governed by the Qun and their population cannot possibly grow large enough in a few generations to overcome their numerical disadvantage. They need the advantages of gunpowder and tactics if they are going to prevail, and it seems those advantages have been neutralized.

This is probably one of their advantages over the rest of Thedas.

Tamassran: The Qun demands more warriors for the Antaam, The Qun demands you get busy.
Male qunari: We must satisfy this demand of the Qun.
Female qunari: Yes, the Qun must be satisfied.

Male qunari Female qunari: and we have another warrior for the Qun on the way.

[Zered]

aTrueFool wrote...

durasteel wrote...

The Qunari cannot compete in terms of sheer numbers, their reproduction is governed by the Qun and their population cannot possibly grow large enough in a few generations to overcome their numerical disadvantage. They need the advantages of gunpowder and tactics if they are going to prevail, and it seems those advantages have been neutralized.

This is probably one of their advantages over the rest of Thedas.

Tamassran: The Qun demands more warriors for the Antaam, The Qun demands you get busy.
Male qunari: We must satisfy this demand of the Qun.
Female qunari: Yes, the Qun must be satisfied.

Male qunari Female qunari: and we have another warrior for the Qun on the way.

I loled hard

[Mistic]

michalooo wrote...

The Qunari cannot compete in terms of sheer numbers, their reproduction
is governed by the Qun and their population cannot possibly grow large
enough in a few generations to overcome their numerical disadvantage.

True, but still the Qunari have means to integrate conquered peoples into their forces. Remember the elves in Kirkwall?

Integration is not always effective. Many people point out Rivain as an example of the Qun's effectiveness at covnerting people, but they forget Tevinter.

Yes, Tevinter, the decadent empire where blood-mages run rampant and slavery is legal. Yet, according to World of Thedas, after 53 years of occupation (6:32 to 6:85), massive rebellions all over Tevinter pushed the Qunari back and managed to retake most of the Imperium, while years before only Minrathous standed against the invasion. And no, it wasn't the Exalted Marches; they weren't declared until 7:25.

aTrueFool wrote...

Tamassran: The Qun demands more warriors for the Antaam, The Qun demands you get busy.
Male qunari: We must satisfy this demand of the Qun.
Female qunari: Yes, the Qun must be satisfied.

Male qunari Female qunari: and we have another warrior for the Qun on the way.

Varric should write a book about this

[YeOldePatu]

Misticsan wrote...

aTrueFool wrote...

Tamassran: The Qun demands more warriors for the Antaam, The Qun demands you get busy.
Male qunari: We must satisfy this demand of the Qun.
Female qunari: Yes, the Qun must be satisfied.

Male qunari Female qunari: and we have another warrior for the Qun on the way.

Varric should write a book about this

What would it be called?

[Master Warder Z_]

durasteel wrote...

There is a wide gap between reasonable inference and "fanon." 

I'll grant you that "rout" might be too strong a word. The Qunari seemed to be disciplined enough to run away in an orderly fashion after getting their asses kicked.

I grant them that i suppose.

[Mirrman70]

I might be wrong but don't the Qunari have a sizable presence in Rivain?

[Master Warder Z_]

Mirrman70 wrote...

I might be wrong but don't the Qunari have a sizable presence in Rivain?

Not since the Chantry did a few purges that were promptly forgotten about.

Records burned and Bodies buried and built over.

It's not exactly the stoutest of the Kingdoms that worship the Maker given its own local customs and their place within the religion but they revere the prophet and her god.

They just also happen to have other traditions there, but the Qunari that refused to convert back to the Maker, Or move to Qunari lands were killed.