304 réponses à ce sujet

[Mirrman70]

political power has actually existed since the sumerians. they had kings soldiers etc. are more easily recognized version of an ancient style culture is the aztecs. Kings, armies, human sacrifice. no verified currency in the modern sense of the word. there were wars between the native american tribes before they even saw white people and they didn't have currency. most of medieval times the common folk (farmers and the ilk) traded goods rather than used currency to get what they wanted. currency didn't really become common among the general public until the time of colonialism.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mirrman70 wrote...

you mean other than the fact that for most of human history a good percentage of the population are willing to sacrifice others to forward their own ambitions? I mean I don't think Stalin sent all those people to the Gulag just to get this seasons Gucci Purse. A desire for dominance is a driving factor for many people's ambition and in a society like the Qun such ambition is frowned upon.

In most of human history, and I  mean the VAST majority, there have been no such thing as currency, wealth or political power. You could argue that in the first days of humanity the "chiefs", for lack of a better word, of the early human tribes were the "ambitious" ones. But matter of fact is taht they were probably at this posistion due to their physical and/or intellectual superiority, ie. they were leading by merit alone.

That was back when the largest human groups were simply large extended families and everyone knew everyone else in a given tribe. That's when there can truly be consensus based on peresonal knowledge of who's the best leader, but that simply doesn't work on a larger scale (and was phased out rather fast in agricultural societies when that got started).

It has never be attempted on a larger scale in a society that has not been tainted by commercialism.

[Xilizhra]

It has never be attempted on a larger scale in a society that has not been tainted by commercialism.

Commercialism entered the human psyche extraordinarily quickly, even before the concept of money did (although that came along rather fast too). The urge to acquire goods and status--ambition, in a word--is endemic to humanity; you can't just strip it out of the human psyche with social engineering. The only other way I can think of is to have them live a subsistence lifestyle, where all their work will be directly necessary to their immediate survival, and with no prospects for it ending at any time soon... and I don't think the Qun uses that lifestyle.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well the Qun if nothing else is a decent selling point for mind altering drugs, Cult of Personality and Military Junta's.

._. Its like a more success north korea come to think of it.

[Mirrman70]

[/quote]
It has never be attempted on a larger scale in a society that has not been tainted by commercialism.
[/quote]
this is contradictory. if this what people first did before they felt any since of greed than how did it never happen before large scale groups were setablished?  the desire for dominance is a natural instinct that exist in many animals. It started as the bigger and stronger you are the better but as society developed people gained the ability to have more than they need and obviously this would be attractive to others (not neccasarily in a sexual way) so others begin to desire more too. This way of thinking predates the use of currency and the concept of commercialism. commercialism didn't truely exist until luxury items began to be availabe to large groups of people.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

It has never be attempted on a larger scale in a society that has not been tainted by commercialism.

Commercialism entered the human psyche extraordinarily quickly, even before the concept of money did (although that came along rather fast too). The urge to acquire goods and status--ambition, in a word--is endemic to humanity; you can't just strip it out of the human psyche with social engineering. The only other way I can think of is to have them live a subsistence lifestyle, where all their work will be directly necessary to their immediate survival, and with no prospects for it ending at any time soon... and I don't think the Qun uses that lifestyle.

That is not at all how the human psyche works... The average human does in fact NOT want to establish dominance at all times. As a matter of fact the vast majority of humans wants to avoid all kinds of conflict assosciated with dominance. The Alpha and Beta humans. As I said the nummerically superior part of the human race are betas, who are perfectly happy being lead by others.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It has never be attempted on a larger scale in a society that has not been tainted by commercialism.

Commercialism entered the human psyche extraordinarily quickly, even before the concept of money did (although that came along rather fast too). The urge to acquire goods and status--ambition, in a word--is endemic to humanity; you can't just strip it out of the human psyche with social engineering. The only other way I can think of is to have them live a subsistence lifestyle, where all their work will be directly necessary to their immediate survival, and with no prospects for it ending at any time soon... and I don't think the Qun uses that lifestyle.

That is not at all how the human psyche works... The average human does in fact NOT want to establish dominance at all times. As a matter of fact the vast majority of humans wants to avoid all kinds of conflict assosciated with dominance. The Alpha and Beta humans. As I said the nummerically superior part of the human race are betas, who are perfectly happy being lead by others.

Some are happy being led, sure. Others aren't, and they will erode any supposedly ideologically perfect system whenever they enter it. Corruption will always occur in large human populations, it's inevitable.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It has never be attempted on a larger scale in a society that has not been tainted by commercialism.

Commercialism entered the human psyche extraordinarily quickly, even before the concept of money did (although that came along rather fast too). The urge to acquire goods and status--ambition, in a word--is endemic to humanity; you can't just strip it out of the human psyche with social engineering. The only other way I can think of is to have them live a subsistence lifestyle, where all their work will be directly necessary to their immediate survival, and with no prospects for it ending at any time soon... and I don't think the Qun uses that lifestyle.

That is not at all how the human psyche works... The average human does in fact NOT want to establish dominance at all times. As a matter of fact the vast majority of humans wants to avoid all kinds of conflict assosciated with dominance. The Alpha and Beta humans. As I said the nummerically superior part of the human race are betas, who are perfectly happy being lead by others.

Some are happy being led, sure. Others aren't, and they will erode any supposedly ideologically perfect system whenever they enter it. Corruption will always occur in large human populations, it's inevitable.

Of course there will always be malcontents. The whole point is how a society deals with them. If they aren't a real nuisance, most just lets them be. Others are far more severe in even the slightest deviance. I don't think even the Qunari got universal approval of their system. As a matter of fact we KNOW that they don't, since we know of the existance of Tal-Vasoth.
But to admit that there will be malcontents and to say that a society is flat-out impossible is two very different things.

[Master Warder Z_]

You know all of this talk and ranting about Human Psychology reminds me of "Self actualized human" Theory and Maslow and all that other garbage.

There is an inherent flaws within Humanity, its debated over depending upon whatever school of thought you buy into as to what they are, Some argue greed is inherent to society or it is within the mindscape it self.

All in all this reminds me most of "The Centuries most complete man"

El Che whom i personally found little within him that was 'complete' but i wasn't born yet to dispute it.

Point being arguing social and psychological dynamics over a fictional society seems to be edging more into the realm of outright conjecture then societal basis .

[CybAnt1]

Some day, I would like to know the answer to why Koslun created the Qun. No great philosophers/teachers arise out of a vacuum.

There clearly were problems in Kossith society that Koslun saw and decided to answer by creating the Qun. What those were, and how that led to its creation/writing, these are things I'd like to see answered in the lore at some point. I like to head canon my belief that he was like Confucius. He saw probably that oxman society was probably torn apart by rival warlords fighting over territory and control and decided the Qun was necessary to restore peace and unity.

Then, of course, we need lore clarifications on the sexual and reproductive compatibility of humans and oxmen/women ... perhaps this may require in-game situations to eventually clarify.

All good things in time, I suppose.

[Lotion Soronarr]

durasteel wrote...

The Qunari seem to have enjoyed great success early on, but then were beaten back consistently. Since the Llomerryn Accord, the Qunari have tried repeatedly to invade Tevinter with no success whatsoever, whereas previously they conquered the entire region except of Minrathous itself.

One reasonable explanation would be that the technology and tactics used by the Qunari in their early campaigns caught the relatively unsophisticated nations of Thedas by surprise. Those nations, however, learned. In every theater of war, on land and at sea, the Qunari were beaten back as their tech and advanced tactics were understood and compensated for.

The Qunari cannot compete in terms of sheer numbers, their reproduction is governed by the Qun and their population cannot possibly grow large enough in a few generations to overcome their numerical disadvantage. They need the advantages of gunpowder and tactics if they are going to prevail, and it seems those advantages have been neutralized.

I think the odds of Thedas ever falling to Qunari aggression fall lower and lower with every battle they fight against the nations of the continent.

Agreed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Did the Qunari try to invade Tevinter repeatedly, or did Tevinter refuse to sign the Llomerryn Accord and so the Qunari have been stalling campaign?

I can't recall any particular sign that the Qunari have been seriously trying to conquer Tevinter since the initial invasions, as opposed to relatively minor squabbling over disputed territory with an enemy who refuses a cease-fire. Certainly it would be very resource intensive and protracted, and I suspect by the point the Qunari could marshal the resources for such a conquest it would be a point that the Andrastian nations feel concerned enough to temporarily unite against the Qunari. Which they clearly don't want (and I lean more to the 'can't conquer them all at once' rather than 'were being trounced' interpretation of the histories given).

So the Tevinter-Qunari war always struck me as a perpetual border dispute that actually spoke more of Tevinter weakness than Qunari. The Tevinter, who refuse to make peace and accept the loss of territory, are unable to actually eject the Qunari and secure such disputed territories. The Qunari, who don't even attempt to knock out Tevinter once and for all, largely maintain the situation and occasionally launch minor invasions to keep it that way. Such a status quo doesn't exactly scream weakness of the Qunari: weakness would be when an expeditionary military can't sustain it's fight, not when it willingly wages protracted war and ties down a major regional power.

In a few respects, the constant warfare is probably strengthening the Qunari military. While most armies are either at peace, with tactical skills degrading while the nation avoids major costs, or at war, with skills and experience high at a high cost, countries with constant low-level wars have a mixture of the two. Costs are not as high, but experience and veteran troops are. I would be surprised if most Qunari troops aren't eventually blooded veteran troops of the Tevinter battlefields, rotating in and out of the theater before being used elsewhere. A theater that not only bloods the troops, but is a bloody laboratory for learning how to combat and counter the field of magics.

I agree that the Qunari probably can't conquer all of Thedas at once. I also don't think that matters: it can conquer parts of Thedas piecemeal if political conditions are right, and a collapse of the Chantry system and the Andrastian international order that would unite all of Thedas at once is one such condition.

[Mistic]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Did the Qunari try to invade Tevinter repeatedly, or did Tevinter refuse to sign the Llomerryn Accord and so the Qunari have been stalling campaign?

I can't recall any particular sign that the Qunari have been seriously trying to conquer Tevinter since the initial invasions, as opposed to relatively minor squabbling over disputed territory with an enemy who refuses a cease-fire. Certainly it would be very resource intensive and protracted, and I suspect by the point the Qunari could marshal the resources for such a conquest it would be a point that the Andrastian nations feel concerned enough to temporarily unite against the Qunari. Which they clearly don't want (and I lean more to the 'can't conquer them all at once' rather than 'were being trounced' interpretation of the histories given).

According to the lore, that scenario pf low-level war you mention happened after the last Exalted March, but then Seheron happened.

After the last Exalted March (7:84) Tevinter took control of Seheron again. But in 8:55 the Qunari launched a large invasion of the island. After three years they conquered it, and since then the Imperium has tried to take it back, without success. However, even now the Qunari are having problems to maintain control of Seheron. Apart from the war against Tevinter, there is resistance from locals who hate both the Qunari and Tevinter, such as the Fog Warriors who took care of Fenris when he escaped.

I agree that it speaks more of Tevinter's weakness than of the Qunari's, but it's still a large difference from the time when the Qunari arrived and curb-stomped every country from Tevinter to Antiva.

[Dean_the_Young]

My apologies- my my standard, Seheron is a low-level conflict. At least for the Qunari at this point: I make no estimate about how hard Tevinter is trying to reclaim the island.

That an insurgency is occuring doesn't really speak one way or another towards the Qunari's relative conventional military ability. The three years to take the island might, if we had a good measure for how long it took them to take most of Tevinter.

[Zered]

This war leve led much of Seheron's new infrastructure.
As its people rebuilt, now in a manner befitting the Qun, large
sections of the island remained outside of Qunari authority.
Most Seherons not under Qunari domination grew to hate
the lmperium as much as the Qunari, fed up as they were with
the war brought by both sides and the terrible toll it took on
the island.

Though the Qunari now struggle to convert and hold the
rest of the is land, many island inhabitants were all too happy to
adopt the Qun over the oppression offered by the lmperium.
Almost all of the large population of former elven slaves who live
on Seheron now hold high roles within the Qunari occupying
forces, helping the Qunari put down remaining resistance.

World of Thedas Vol.I page87.

Modifié par michalooo, 21 février 2014 - 12:55 .

[Mistic]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

My apologies- my my standard, Seheron is a low-level conflict. At least for the Qunari at this point: I make no estimate about how hard Tevinter is trying to reclaim the island.

Ah, ok. Truth be told, we really don't know much about the war in Seheron, so it could be something from small skirmishes to something akin to the Eighty Years War (as I've said many times, looking forward to a game set in Tevinter).

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That an insurgency is occuring doesn't really speak one way or another towards the Qunari's relative conventional military ability. The three years to take the island might, if we had a good measure for how long it took them to take most of Tevinter.

I took a look at the official timeline. The Qunari first landed in Seheron in 6:32. Ten years later, by 6:42, only Minrathous resisted (that damned city never falls).

However, resistance is important. In 6:85, 53 years after the war began, massive rebellions across Tevinter pushed the Qunari back. By 7:23, the only part of the Empire still occupied by the Qunari was Seheron. The first Exalted March was declared in 7:25. By 7:84 (the Llomerryn Accord), Tevinter had reclaimed Seheron.

This is what we know so far. Probably a thing or two will be retconned or re-explained in the future.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

World of Thedas and the wiki have described both that Qunari attempted to land on the Tevinter mainland after conquering Seheron and were repulsed AND that the Imperium has attempted to reconquer Seheron but were also beaten back.

[Mirrman70]

The Qunari and Tevinter are at a stalemate neither is capable of defeating the other that is why neither has taken over the rest of the continent. The Qunari were repulsed by a combined effort from the human kingdoms and currently only tevinter shows any interest in destroying the Qunari. it would be in the best interest of the rest of the continent to let them fight each other and then pick off the eventual winner while they are weak.

[Master Warder Z_]

Mirrman70 wrote...

The Qunari and Tevinter are at a stalemate neither is capable of defeating the other that is why neither has taken over the rest of the continent. The Qunari were repulsed by a combined effort from the human kingdoms and currently only tevinter shows any interest in destroying the Qunari. it would be in the best interest of the rest of the continent to let them fight each other and then pick off the eventual winner while they are weak.

Qunari are the bigger threat in the long game.

The Mage Lord's power over Thedas has been gone for many centuries.

[Mirrman70]

but the people don't see that. they see an empire run by blood mages that sacrifices thousands of slaves for the sake of increasing their power. whether or not their view is right is up to the writers. The Qunari while a bigger threat in the long run would not manage to when a war against the rest of Thedas combined immediately after exhausting themselves fighting the Tevinter.

[The Hierophant]

In regards to the threat the Qunari present i remember there being mention of Qunari spies masquerading as Tevinter slaves, while Prosper's spy list indicates that there's Qunari spies all over Thedas.

I believe that if the Qun doesn't suffer heavy casualties from the veil crisis there'a a good chance that they'll Blitz Tevinter while the rest of Thedas is distracted.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Hierophant wrote...

In regards to the threat the Qunari present i remember there being mention of Qunari spies masquerading as Tevinter slaves, while Prosper's spy list indicates that there's Qunari spies all over Thedas.

I believe that if the Qun doesn't suffer heavy casualties from the veil crisis there'a a good chance that they'll Blitz Tevinter while the rest of Thedas is distracted.

Possible but they failed in Mainland assualts against the Imperium before hence why both parties have been content to just fight over an island for a while now.

I doubt they would open another front, perhaps bypass it but i doubt the Qunari would fall into the same trap that saw them defeated before.

The reason the last qunari war was ended was because the Qunari couldn't fight successfully in four diffrent fronts, An invasion of the Thedas proper would have to be done with care or else it turns out the same as last time, every one and their brother jumping them right out of the gate.

[Cyberbobmkii]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Some day, I would like to know the answer to why Koslun created the Qun. No great philosophers/teachers arise out of a vacuum.

There clearly were problems in Kossith society that Koslun saw and decided to answer by creating the Qun. What those were, and how that led to its creation/writing, these are things I'd like to see answered in the lore at some point. I like to head canon my belief that he was like Confucius. He saw probably that oxman society was probably torn apart by rival warlords fighting over territory and control and decided the Qun was necessary to restore peace and unity.

Then, of course, we need lore clarifications on the sexual and reproductive compatibility of humans and oxmen/women ... perhaps this may require in-game situations to eventually clarify.

All good things in time, I suppose.

This might help
http://dragonage.wik..._entry:_The_Qun

[Nuloen]

i think Koslun didnt even wrote those crazy things like
put mages in chains and stitch up theyre lips and cutting theyre tongues off
or use of qamek
becouse if someone came with sutch drastical ideology he would be stoned to death
it had to be good(kind to people) at first, if someone was be able to accept it(even facizm looked as good idea at first)
but Qun became corrupted by time, by those who lead qunari and betryed them with that act(facizm was combined with racizm and nacizm)

Modifié par Nuloen, 23 février 2014 - 01:16 .

[CybAnt1]

This might help
http://dragonage.wik..._entry:_The_Qun

That's interesting. I missed that codex, somehow.

I like it, though. It is obvious that one thing they have based (the story of) the life of Ashkaari Koslun on is that of the Buddha. Especially the whole observation of suffering and meditating on overcoming it. Particularly his focus on the evils of poverty.... 

"Existence is a choice"... ah, ox-man existentialism.
"There is no chaos in the world, only complexity" ... also a fan of modern day complexity and chaos theory, probably from his days at the Santa Fe Institute (I kid, I kid).
"Suffering is a choice, we can refuse it" ... well, that was the Buddha's realization, also, that suffering and the self were connected.

It's just interesting how radically different an answer to the problem of suffering he came up with (the Qun), from the Buddha, though. His answer was far more like that of Confucius (as I said) ... that a more perfect society without suffering is one with far more rigidly defined identities and roles/relationships for everyone.