205 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

Frybread76 wrote...

Yeah I'm not holding out much hope for DA:I. I'll rent it but won't buy it until I've played it myself for a few days.

You can watch the game play and clearly see it's not the linair wave combat mess da2 was .

[KaiserShep]

I think this awesome button stuff is a bit overblown.

[budzai]

KaiserShep wrote...

I think this awesome button stuff is a bit overblown.

No.

[leaguer of one]

budzai wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I think this awesome button stuff is a bit overblown.

No.

It is when only the pc players of the game use it to hate on da2 when only the console players had it as an option.

[KaiserShep]

No? Oh well I guess I've seen the light.

[ElementalFury106]

@Hiemoth I was going to read and reply to your points in a respectful manner, until I saw you making snarky remarks and a mockery of many points people have agreed with me on. Didnt even give your response the benefit of being fully read and evaluated. Convey your arguments in a mature respectful way or don't reply at all. Simple as that.

[ghostzodd]

leaguer of one wrote...

budzai wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I think this awesome button stuff is a bit overblown.

No.

It is when only the pc players of the game use it to hate on da2 when only the console players had it as an option.

Are you really trying to turn this into a PC versus console:pinched:

[leaguer of one]

ghostzodd wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

budzai wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I think this awesome button stuff is a bit overblown.

No.

It is when only the pc players of the game use it to hate on da2 when only the console players had it as an option.

Are you really trying to turn this into a PC versus console:pinched:

Nope. Just pointing out the bias.

[LinksOcarina]

ElementalFury106 wrote...

Oh, I've talked about and thought about this topic so many times over the past 2 years I swear I could write a thesis/dissertation on it.

I wish I had the time to invest to a youtube channel many years ago, covering RPG games: playthroughs, builds and tips, news, comparisons, etc.

I like your title. The title for my theory(ies) pertaining to this subject is "The Mass Effect effect of Dragon Age." Looks silly, but reread and think about it.

So I don't want to write a massive post most people will just disregard. I'll just share my MAIN points in little bullets.

Bioware is increasingly destroying the identity of the Dragon Age franchise by changing it to be MORE and MORE like Mass Effect. From the story telling/progression, to combat, to fundemental RPG elements like character progression.

-Both Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age:Origins were said to have clunky combat. It took a little getting used to, but both games had charm to their combat. A huge change to combat came with Mass Effect 2, focusing more on being a faster, smoother cover-based third person shooter. Some hated the combat changes, but most people enjoyed them. The combat was smoother, regardless of one's opinion. DA:2 did the EXACT same thing. Made combat faster and more interactive, but much less tactical.

-The protaganist. And the dialogue wheel. Both straight out of Mass Effect, incorporated in both DA:2 and now DA:I. We now have a fully voiced acted protaganist who has dialogue options ranging between paragon/helpful, neutral/humorous, renegade/aggresive. Both Shepard and Hawke seem to also act like baby sitters, dealing with people s***. The Warden can basically say FU to any douche bag they encounter. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but you can clearly see how DA:2 took this straight outta Mass Effect.

-Gear and character customization. Mass Effect 2 was criticized for being dumbed down. Got rid of loot, took out all the different weapons and armor, and leveling process. You can also no longer outfit your companions, they all have their own armor in different colors/variations. DA:2 did this as well. You used to be able to fully outfit your team...then you couldn't. Straight from a decision made during the Mass Effect trilogy.

The story/decision making becoming fixed. Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3, completely fixed games. By that I mean, no matter what decisions you make, eventually comes together in the same fashions. The end results (and endings) are EXACTLY the same, except from a few very minor differentiations.

-Ever noticed how we no longer had a neutral option in Mass Effect 3? It was either diplomatic or renegade, or the special paragon and renegade options. Did you notice in the PAX gameplay of Inquisition how the dialogue wheel evolved in the EXACT same way..?

-Multiplayer. ME3 brought multiplayer to the equation. DA:I hasn't confirmed multiplayer...yet. But they haven't denied it either, and they even humored the idea of it. I definitely think Inquisition will have multiplayer. The third game of Dragon Age franchise...the equivalent of Mass Effect 3.

-Skill/Talent evolution. Mass Effect 2 introduced the power evolution mechanic, where ME1 and DA:O has a linear tree progression style of power-leveling. Then DA:2 adopted the power evolution mechanic as well.

-This one is an assumption, but in ME3 we had the Galaxy at War assets. I bet we're going to have something similar with Inquisition.

-Day 1 Squadmate DLC. Yup.

I'm sure I can probably come up with more, but these are the main ones. It's absolutely crazy how similar the two franchises are. I get that they're made by the same team. But Mass Effect and DA:O had their own identities and were great on their. They're becoming more and more similar with each passing game.

I really want to destroy your argument in full right now, mainly because you talk like most of these changes were actually negative ones and not mechanical design decisions that BioWare has been pushing to be modern changes to the system at large. After all, gaming was perfected by 1998 standards in that way, why the heck would they not adopt something different to mark their style?

I also would be curious to see what evidence outside of similar game designs you have of it adpoting features from one game to the other that are not story progression and character development, since all five games have vastly different story arcs to contend with, both personal and epic scale. Considering most BioWare games follow a standard template of progression except, ironically, Dragon Age II and Mass Effect 3, isen't that a false argument to make?  Not to mention what your definition of fundamental RPG character progression is crucial to this argument, and you didn't really give it here, just said it like it was a fact. 

But frankly, i'm sick of pointing out how wrong you guys can be about such assumptions, let alone how annoying you it gets when you say it like its a fact, and even worse, like its a bad thing all the time. Believe what you want, it doesn't make it all true, and it certainly doesn't make it bad. Maybe to you, at least, but thats about it, an issue of personal preference. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 10 février 2014 - 08:01 .

[Naesaki]

Bioware really needs to give us some information so everyone can finally sit down and be quiet for 5 minutes, complaining about things that might not even happen yet, just seems a bit nonsensical to me.


I did find it rather funny one user was going on about how Bioware is destroying the Dragon Age Franchises identity....um...it only has 2 games under its belt so far (3 if you count Heroes of Dragon Age). I still believe the franchise is still trying to establish its true identity and looks like Bioware has finally found the mechanics, tools and methodology thats suits their own style and brand, which they are now trying to perfect. (inb4 someone screams loyalist at me) I mean...come on....give them a chance, we barely have enough info on DA : I as it is for us to start going at like rabid dogs with these discussions.


Now if you want a franchise that might be destroying its identity, idk maybe look at the FF series that now has 14 main titles and numerous spinoffs and they've been changing the wheel like crazy the past 6-8 years. They had a perfectly good wheel, then after 12, they decided to go for a new type of wheel (not the best analogy but you get the idea)(Though i'm in a strange boat, as i've yet to truly dislike like any FF game, I probably am insane )

Modifié par Naesaki, 10 février 2014 - 08:08 .

[Hiemoth]

ElementalFury106 wrote...

@Hiemoth I was going to read and reply to your points in a respectful manner, until I saw you making snarky remarks and a mockery of many points people have agreed with me on. Didnt even give your response the benefit of being fully read and evaluated. Convey your arguments in a mature respectful way or don't reply at all. Simple as that.

Yes, I must admit that ended up being a lot more snarkier in my response than I had intended and than was necessary. It doesn't change the points I made, not that you actually even apparently read them, but it was still something that was not beneficial for any discussion. For that, I do apologize. I will not change what I wrote, because it was what it was, but I will strive for better in the future.

However, if you will allow me to point out a couple of things about your above response. First of all, it doesn't matter that there are people who agree with you about those points. I probably have some people agreeing with me about my points, at least my delusional mind thinks so. It doesn't make the argument stronger nor does it give any more merit. It just means that there are people disagreeing about something.

Second, here's the thing. I really do like, maybe even love, both DA2 and ME3, even with their flaws. You do not seem to share that sentiment, which I cannot even say is completely fine, as that would indicate that it would somehow up to me. If you don't like something, you don't like something. But, in many of your arguments of how those two franchises have been forced to be similar, you made claims that, in my view, distorted the facts to the degree that it almost seemed intentional to force a narrative. You mixed up the Paragon/Renegade system with the tone system, even though they are functionally utterly different  and even serve different purposes. I explained it in more detail in my post, not that you read it. Also, the claim that DA2 and ME3 level progression are now somehow basically the same is a claim so out there that I honestly, and I do not say this snarkily, do not know where to even start with that argument. Again, I explained this in more detail in my initial reply, and again you probably didn't read it.

So while you are critizing me of mocking points you made, I would counterargue that I found your initial arguments and points mocking of games I really liked. Not because they were critically of it, but rather because they were are based on facts that are demonstrably false, no matter how many people agree with them.

[leaguer of one]

Naesaki wrote...

Bioware really needs to give us some information so everyone can finally sit down and be quiet for 5 minutes, complaining about things that might not even happen yet, just seems a bit nonsensical to me.

....Did you not see the gameplay of DAI from last year?

[LinksOcarina]

CybAnt1 wrote...

phoenix fang55 wrote...

cybant1, you missed the main point I was making, overall, they use the same basic mechanics, there are some, different ones, but for the most part, they're incredibly similar,

And yet, not similar enough that:

a) Wikipedia lists one (ME) as an action-RPG, and the other (DA) as not-one. 
There is a tabletop-RPG version of one (DA), and only fanmade versions of the other (ME). Do you know why? They have to invent certain mechanics for the tabletop that don't otherwise exist in the game to do that, esp as of ME3.

 

Mistake number 1, Wikipedia is not a source of information that is fair.

Number 2, the definition of an action RPG is very broad. Elder Scrolls is an action RPG, so is the Witcher series. Dragon Age was a hybrid of sorts, tactical/action, that had the pendulum swing both ways in favor of one over the other in both games. 

A tabletop game is easy to make, hard to make well. Dragon age the tabletop is pretty good, very simple mechanics. It would be easy to make a sci-fi RPG (ive helped in testing one) if you have good mechanics, but they don't sell. Thats likely why it was never made.

[ghostzodd]

leaguer of one wrote...

ghostzodd wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

budzai wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I think this awesome button stuff is a bit overblown.

No.

It is when only the pc players of the game use it to hate on da2 when only the console players had it as an option.

Are you really trying to turn this into a PC versus console:pinched:

Nope. Just pointing out the bias.

I am confused what the bias is, the press a button and cool stuff happens?

[Naesaki]

leaguer of one wrote...

Naesaki wrote...

Bioware really needs to give us some information so everyone can finally sit down and be quiet for 5 minutes, complaining about things that might not even happen yet, just seems a bit nonsensical to me.

....Did you not see the gameplay of DAI from last year?

I did but since thats you know thats..alpha footage and not the finished product.......

[leaguer of one]

ghostzodd wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

ghostzodd wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

budzai wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I think this awesome button stuff is a bit overblown.

No.

It is when only the pc players of the game use it to hate on da2 when only the console players had it as an option.

Are you really trying to turn this into a PC versus console:pinched:

Nope. Just pointing out the bias.

I am confused what the bias is, the press a button and cool stuff happens?

How is it not bias to call a game crap because one version of it has the "awesome button" when the version you get does not have it?

Modifié par leaguer of one, 10 février 2014 - 08:16 .

[leaguer of one]

Naesaki wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Naesaki wrote...

Bioware really needs to give us some information so everyone can finally sit down and be quiet for 5 minutes, complaining about things that might not even happen yet, just seems a bit nonsensical to me.

....Did you not see the gameplay of DAI from last year?

I did but since thats you know thats..alpha footage and not the finished product.......

And it's not going to drasicly change from that. At that point some animation, moves to use, and graphic details will change but not by that much.

We can tell how the game going to turn out by that. Personally, I feel it's enough to put down the pitch forks and torches.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 10 février 2014 - 08:16 .

[LinksOcarina]

ghostzodd wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

ghostzodd wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

budzai wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I think this awesome button stuff is a bit overblown.

No.

It is when only the pc players of the game use it to hate on da2 when only the console players had it as an option.

Are you really trying to turn this into a PC versus console:pinched:

Nope. Just pointing out the bias.

I am confused what the bias is, the press a button and cool stuff happens?

The bias between PC players and console players regarding the statement being made, which was never true in the design of the game to begin with for one group over the other, later rectified by a patch. 

I always found such things to be silly to me. It shouldn't matter what your preference is in the end. Most games they make for consoles but add PC toggles on anyway now a days for PC players, and vice versa for PC to console adapatations. It really is a fruitless bias in the end. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 10 février 2014 - 08:16 .

[ghostzodd]

LinksOcarina wrote...

ghostzodd wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

ghostzodd wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

budzai wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I think this awesome button stuff is a bit overblown.

No.

It is when only the pc players of the game use it to hate on da2 when only the console players had it as an option.

Are you really trying to turn this into a PC versus console:pinched:

Nope. Just pointing out the bias.

I am confused what the bias is, the press a button and cool stuff happens?

The bias between PC players and console players regarding the statement being made, which was never true in the design of the game to begin with. 

I always found such things to be silly to me. It shouldn't matter what your preference is in the end. Most games they make for consoles but add PC toggles on anyway now a days for PC players, and vice versa for PC to console adapatations. It really is a fruitless bias in the end. 

........Link we have talked about this already

[leaguer of one]

ghostzodd wrote...



........Link we have talked about this already

Awnser me this... How does the "awesome button" effect pc  players when they don't even have the option use it on pc?

[Cainhurst Crow]

What's an awesome button? I don't get it.

So you press buttons and stuff happens? I'm pretty sure that's called being able to play a game, no? I mean, what would it be like if you had a game where you didn't need to press buttons?

Well, with Kinect that may work, but kinect sucks so I don't see it as an option.

[ghostzodd]

leaguer of one wrote...

ghostzodd wrote...



........Link we have talked about this already

Awnser me this... How does the "awesome button" effect pc  players when they don't even have the option use it on pc?

I don't understand this whole awsome button thing.  I played DA2 on Xbox then on PC. the combat is definetly more flashier then origins.  But I enjoyed the combat since I have been of fan of action rpgs since I was like 10.

Stuff like Star Ocean till the end of time, Kingdom hearts, Rogue Galaxy. The awesome button never affected me. Combat is not even why I consider DA2 bad compared to Origins.

Modifié par ghostzodd, 10 février 2014 - 08:25 .

[LinksOcarina]

ghostzodd wrote...

........Link we have talked about this already

Since when do I listen to you? 

 

I don't understand this whole awsome button thing.  I played DA2 on Xbox then on PC. the combat is definetly more flashier then origins.  But I enjoyed the combat since I have been of fan of action rpgs since I was like 10.

Stuff like Star Ocean till the end of time, Kingdom hearts, Rogue Galaxy. The awesome button never affected me. Combat is not even why I consider DA2 bad compared to Origins.

What leaguer is trying to say is there was a PR piece talking about the "awesome button" for Dragon Age II, that did everything for you. tap it enough you attack faster basically. 

A lot of people didn't like the PR bit because it was stupid for one, and was against the mechanics of dragon Age as a series...until the game came out and the awesome button aspect was a console only aspect, that was later patched into the PC version. 

Since both games had toggles for combat being tactical, it was basically a terrible PR bit that meant nothing, but people latched onto it as if it was a "problem" with Dragon Age. 

See, trying to make things clear for you. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 10 février 2014 - 08:28 .

[leaguer of one]

ghostzodd wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

ghostzodd wrote...



........Link we have talked about this already

Awnser me this... How does the "awesome button" effect pc  players when they don't even have the option use it on pc?

I don't understand this whole awsome button thing.  I played DA2 on Xbox then on PC. the combat is definetly more flashier then origins.  But I enjoyed the combat since have been of fan of action rpgs since I was like 10.

Stuff like Star Ocean till the end of time, Kingdom hearts, Rogue Galaxy.

*Sigh....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV97ozaD4vs


On the console version of da2, their is an option to turn off auto attack and allow the player to manually apply melee attacks, thus turning the wait time between cooldowns to a button masher. PC players freaked and then critazed devs for doing this because they made console the lead  version. Reguardless, the pc verion never got the contriversal manual melee option nor was it ever planned for pc and pc player still to the day use it to hate on da2.

You should not comment on something you know nothing about.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 10 février 2014 - 08:32 .

[ghostzodd]

LinksOcarina wrote...

ghostzodd wrote...

........Link we have talked about this already

Since when do I listen to you? 

Well considering you ran to a moderator, after acting like a petulant child in that one topic<_<. Thats like some grade school stuff. get into an arguement with someone then run to the teacher when they push back:innocent: