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[Cobra's_back]

Corker wrote...

So that the Warden would be even *more* able to toss her off her throne and kill her father?

She has one card. She'd be pretty dumb to show it. Yeah, her plan backfires because she's not the protagonist, but at least she had a plan.

Actually all she had to do was not support the warden. She goes one step further and tries to lie about the warden. She asked the warden to save her and then tells everyone in the landsmeet the warden kidnapped her. 

Members of the landsmeet don't have to give a reason to support Loghain. She could have said she thought Loghain would do a better job.

A Cousland would have been scarred by lies and deceit. Look what happened to his parents. Howe uses lies and
deceit to kill his family. I see this guy most likely candidate for an all-out fight and a final human sacrifice. 

Modifié par ghostbusters101, 16 février 2014 - 08:18 .

[Corker]

Are you talking about when she lies to the Warden, saying she'll support her when she doesn't, or what she says to the Landsmeet?  You seem to have started with "She should have told the warden she wasn't going to support him." and now we're talking about what she says to the nobles.

Modifié par Corker, 16 février 2014 - 08:43 .

[Cobra's_back]

Corker wrote...

Are you talking about when she lies to the Warden, saying she'll support her when she doesn't, or what she says to the Landsmeet?  You seem to have started with "She should have told the warden she wasn't going to support him." and now we're talking about what she says to the nobles.

Both. She didn't have to lie at all. She was never require to support the warden. She went after the warden so she could set the warden up if things didn't go her way. Why do you think she wanted the warden to rescue her? If things didn't go her way she could say the warden kidnapped her.

Yes. She had a good plan and it should have worked if you were not the main character fighting everyone in the main hall. 

Modifié par ghostbusters101, 17 février 2014 - 04:53 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Okay, let's establish this: what do you think she should have done instead, and how would it have gotten her what she wanted?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Keep in mind that what she wants is:

a) Her dad not to be executed
To be queen in her own right (ie. keep her home and her job)

[sylvanaerie]

Hey, she often gets ( from me, more often than not tbh. She works hard at it and does a creditable job, and Alistair sure as hell doesn't want that life, but (a) never happens.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 17 février 2014 - 04:06 .

[Mike3207]

Anora's a politician. She's going to do and say what is necessary to keep her job as Queen, but she has lines she won't cross. If you make it clear you're going to kill Loghain under any circumstances, she will betray you. If you leave even a little wiggle room, she'll accept that.

[RavenousBear]

Does Anora know the role Wardens play in to end Blights? Because if she knows they are needed to kill the Archdemon, then I would question her sanity to backstab the Wardens at the Landsmeet if they do not support her for Queen, etc...

[sylvanaerie]

No, though apparently as soon as you go through the joining, it seems half of Ferelden knows about it (and the possible consequences) as she mentions that it can possibly be fatal when trying to convince you not to execute her dad.  But the whole "The Gray Warden who slays the Archdemon dies" thing seems to be something only Riordan knew about and felt the need to say the night before the final battle. 

Bastard.

I found it interesting that she doesn't appeal to you as a person with him as a person (her father), but as "Ferelden's greatest general/hero". She only calls him "Father" once she realizes that's it, he's going down.  I think if she had known, she would have thrown that into the argument as well, though she would probably have been more discreet than blurting it out in the Landsmeet.

It seems to be something only senior wardens know, never telling their recruits unless it becomes necessary.  I suspect had he had more time, Duncan would have had the same conversation Riordan does with the warden.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 17 février 2014 - 06:54 .

[Mike3207]

I'm not sure how many Warden secrets Anora was aware of. She clearly knows about the possibiliity of the Warden dying in the Joining, and who knows how many others Cailan would have told her. It's also possible she might have learned some from Maric.

[RavenousBear]

Heh, the Landsmeet could have used more revising before the game was released. You can ssee why I can be a bit confusing since Anora suddenly knows the risk of the Joining itself. Riordan is a bit dimwitted for being a veteran Warden.

Was he really "Ferelden's greatset hero" or is that Anora's bias since he is her father? I thought Maric was considered a greater hero since he was the leader of the resistance, etc...

I guess the senior wardens love surprising their new recruits with the truth after the Joining. "Guess what, you are going to die around 30 years from now because of the taint! Surprise!"

[sylvanaerie]

Whether he is or isn't (that's debatable) she refers to him as "The Hero of River Dane" at least once at the landsmeet, and as "Ferelden's Greatest General" when you say he has to die for his crimes. Never once as "Father" until he's about to die.

I have to wonder what kind of relationship they have, or else it says something about her personally that she tries to use logic, not an appeal to emotion to spare his life. Maybe a little of both. It's why i usually leave her in charge, she really does make a good queen with the ability to make the hard choices Ferelden needs.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LoneWolf8588 wrote...

Was he really "Ferelden's greatset hero" or is that Anora's bias since he is her father? I thought Maric was considered a greater hero since he was the leader of the resistance, etc...

Maric at one point wound up owing Loghain his life. I don't remember ever hearing that the converse was true.

[Cobra's_back]

LoneWolf8588 wrote...

Maric at one point wound up owing Loghain his life. I don't remember ever hearing that the converse was true.

So true. I love the game and how it shows that Loghain did care for Marc but at the same time does exactly what Flemeth said he would. He would betray his friend each time worse than the other.

I made Anora ruler several times. She is very capable. I'm just playing this character differently. This character is not evil, but no nonsense and hates politics. With this type of character I don't see her getting ahead.

Modifié par ghostbusters101, 18 février 2014 - 03:43 .

[Cobra's_back]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Okay, let's establish this: what do you think she should have done instead, and how would it have gotten her what she wanted?

Good question. For this character she would have needed to tell the turth and make her case.


My city elf, dwarf and mage gave her the throne.

This guy will have low tolerance for dishonesty.



I haven't gotten to the point of saving the queen. I believe with this character I plan on not wearing the disguises and clearing the place out. I never did that yet. I just want to try it out. This is an angry Cousland.

Modifié par ghostbusters101, 18 février 2014 - 03:27 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Whether he is or isn't (that's debatable) she refers to him as "The Hero of River Dane" at least once at the landsmeet, and as "Ferelden's Greatest General" when you say he has to die for his crimes. Never once as "Father" until he's about to die.

I have to wonder what kind of relationship they have, or else it says something about her personally that she tries to use logic, not an appeal to emotion to spare his life. Maybe a little of both. It's why i usually leave her in charge, she really does make a good queen with the ability to make the hard choices Ferelden needs.

Anora is not one to be open about her emotions, and she seems to think she would have more luck presenting Loghain to the Warden as a valued and proven war asset (ie. a great hero and general) than just as her dad. The Wardens are, after all, supposed to be practical when it comes to stopping the Blight, and to put the fate of the world ahead of their own desires -- as Riordan is.

If you make Loghain do the US, she'll ask you afterwards how he died, and that moment (as well as when you let him get executed) are as emotional as you ever get to see her. She does love him, but playing on peoples' emotions isn't her thing.

(Which is probably wise, considering Morrigan a little later in the game )

ghostbusters101 wrote...

I love the game and how it shows that Loghain did care for Marc but at the same time does exactly what Flemeth said he would. He would betray his friend each time worse than the other.

I never really 'got' Loghain's supposed betrayal, to be honest. The thing with the elf chick in the first book, yeah, ok, but where Cailan and Ostagar were concerned I looked at it as Loghain keeping his promise to Maric -- not to get heaps of people killed just to try and save one man, no matter who that man is.

Gees, it's still fun to talk about this game and its characters.

[Cobra's_back]

Sorry Shadow of light for not explaining where the comment comes from. Flemeth predicts this in the book called "Dragon Age: The Stolen throne ". Loghain is a very interesting character to me. Loghain made Marc kill the elf, he nailed his future wife, killed his son and tried to kill his other son. The only character that is more interesting to me is Flemeth. I really hope to get more information on her.

I know what you mean about this game. It really is fun. I just love the characters. We really don't know if they could have won the battle at Ostagar. Howe and Loghain didn't help and some of the grey wardens were turn away. It seems to me that Loghain planned ahead down to the circle mages.

Modifié par ghostbusters101, 18 février 2014 - 03:02 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

I know what you mean about this game. It really is fun. I just love the characters. We really don't know if they could have won the battle at Ostagar. Howe and Loghain didn't help and some of the grey wardens were turn away. It seems to me that Loghain planned ahead down to the circle mages.

What do you mean "down to the Circle mages?"

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Okay, let's establish this: what do you think she should have done instead, and how would it have gotten her what she wanted?

Good question. For this character she would have needed to tell the turth and make her case. 

Would that get her what she wanted? Even if it would, how was she to know this?

[DarthGizka]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

I know what you mean about this game. It really is fun. I just love the characters. We really don't know if they could have won the battle at Ostagar. Howe and Loghain didn't help and some of the grey wardens were turn away. It seems to me that Loghain planned ahead down to the circle mages.

What do you mean "down to the Circle mages?"

Loghain promised Uldred & friends to loosen the Chantry restrictions in return for their support. This is an indirect cause for the events of the Broken Circle. It is also further evidence that he laid the groundwork for his takeover of Ferelden long before his betrayal at Ostagar, along with poisoning Arl Eamon etc. pp.

Modifié par DarthGizka, 18 février 2014 - 03:52 .

[Cobra's_back]

DarthGizka I could not have said it any better.

Riverdaleswhiteflash:

"Would that get her what she wanted? Even if it would, how was she to know this?"

If she was confident in her abilities, she get the throne and earns his respect. This is just how I'm playing this character.

[Mike3207]

We don't know when Loghain promised that support. He may well have made that commitment after the battle of Ostagar.

[wiccame]

Mike Smith wrote...

We don't know when Loghain promised that support. He may well have made that commitment after the battle of Ostagar.

He wouldn't have had much time for that I wouldn't have thought.
He retreated before the battle finished and probably headed straight for Denerim. Wynne stayed behind a few days but when she got back to the tower Uldred was already there starting his coup.

Modifié par wiccame, 18 février 2014 - 05:43 .

[DarthGizka]

True, I don"t think we have any hard data on the time line. But Loghain's conspiracies don't seem like the kind that are woven in the space of two days or so.

When you get to Lothering a blood mage - presumably from Uldred's circle - has already poisoned Arl Eamon on Loghain's behest, long enough ago for someone to come up with the desperate idea of the Ashes, and long enough ago that the knights have swarmed all over Ferelden in search of them, and long enough ago for one of those knights managing to get killed in Lothering before you even got there. With teleportation restricted to Vvardenfell, all that stuff had to have been done on horseback.

[wiccame]

If you listen to the gossips outside the inn in Lothering too, the mages have already 'gone crazy and turned into abominations'.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DarthGizka wrote...

True, I don"t think we have any hard data on the time line. But Loghain's conspiracies don't seem like the kind that are woven in the space of two days or so.

When you get to Lothering a blood mage - presumably from Uldred's circle - has already poisoned Arl Eamon on Loghain's behest, long enough ago for someone to come up with the desperate idea of the Ashes, and long enough ago that the knights have swarmed all over Ferelden in search of them, and long enough ago for one of those knights managing to get killed in Lothering before you even got there. With teleportation restricted to Vvardenfell, all that stuff had to have been done on horseback.

Jowan had been sent before the Battle of Ostagar even started; Loghain finds him between the events of the mage Origin and the Warden's arrival at Ostagar. (Duncan must have been making some sad time.) Uldred was probably given an offer shortly before the battle, since Loghain wanted Uldred to find himself in control of the signal.

I think Loghain's end of this offer would have been the same as the end of the offer he makes after the battle, assuming that Loghain isn't planning to betray Cailan from the start. And it's not like he's any less likely to be able to pull it off as Teryn than as the Regent. (Part of the reason I don't think Loghain's pulling a coup? He actually gains almost no power from this. Pending Cailan's plot to divorce Anora, Loghain's basically de facto on the throne. And when he learns of this plot it clearly comes as a surprise to him.) Then the battle goes south (whether or not you think that was on purpose), and Uldred's support becomes even more important.

Also, do we know how long the Warden was out when he/she got shot in the chest?

ghostbusters101 wrote...

DarthGizka I could not have said it any better.

Riverdaleswhiteflash:

"Would that get her what she wanted? Even if it would, how was she to know this?"

If she was confident in her abilities, she get the throne and earns his respect. This is just how I'm playing this character.

You didn't address the second question I asked at all, and as for the first don't forget she also wants her father not to die.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 18 février 2014 - 09:38 .