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[FiliusMartis]

So a book says the Ashes are in Ferelden, and someone is trying to cover some things up. And...? A book alone is not proof of anything, and neither is a secret conspiracy that, while dangerous, has absolutely nothing to do with the Blight

Which is exactly why I said it's not proof. It is a book of research compiled by a scholar. It is a possible reason to believe... it is evidence. I never said it was proof.



I also don't think it's feasible that Jowan wouldn't have gotten caught. He and his girlfriend are missing. His phylactery is gone. The locks on the doors are burned. A senior mage gave a rod of fire permission slip to the newly harrowed mage. You're kinda out of luck no matter whether or not he gets away.

[Sarah1281]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I also don't think it's feasible that Jowan wouldn't have gotten caught. He and his girlfriend are missing. His phylactery is gone. The locks on the doors are burned. A senior mage gave a rod of fire permission slip to the newly harrowed mage. You're kinda out of luck no matter whether or not he gets away.

 Once Jowan and Lily are gone and the phylactery destroyed then it really doesn't matter what the Templars or Irving thinks. You might be in a bit of trouble if they realize a rod of fire was how Jowan managed to get out and there's no proof that Jowan didn't just steal yours.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 13 août 2010 - 11:51 .

[FiliusMartis]

It doesn't matter for Jowan and Lily, but it sure matters for the little mage left behind. Irving and Greagoir aren't stupid. The route taken to the phylactery requires a harrowed mage's touch and a rod of fire. One recently harrowed mage, who is Jowan's friend, just borrowed a rod of fire. That mage is abandoned and out of luck.

[DPSSOC]

veryalien wrote...

gelfie wrote...

Although they are similar, there is a difference between the two, which you will learn about if you play the Mage origin story. Jowan sought to break the rules and knowingly did so by becoming a Blood Mage and by agreeing to poison Arl Eamon. Unless I've missed a conversation along the way, Sten never sought to break his code and I cannot imagine him becoming complicit in a plot to murder someone important to his country as Jowan was. Jowan's a slippery wretch who [seemingly] habitually transgresses who tries hard to make himself likeable where Sten does not try to be likeable and is absolutely honest. I felt that Sten was repelled by Jowan's unwillingness to take responsibility for himself and be honest.

It's not Jowan's fault though. Jowan's a product of the system. He's like some kid who gets put in and out of juvenile detention because he excels at shoplifting. If only someone would cut him some slack and give him some direction instead of constantly try to use him or lobotomize him he may have a shot at doing some good.

Remember what we learned in KOTOR. Everyone can seek redemption

Jowan was given direction, lots of it, he chose to ignore it.  From a young age Jowan was told, "Blood magic is dangerous, it opens you up to demons, it's morally wrong, and we will kill you or worse for using it."  Now somehow the thought crossed his mind that the best way to prove he was ready to be a full mage was to disregard one of their biggest rules, that doesn`t make him a victim it makes him an idiot.  Yes Jowan is a product of the system, so are Irving and Wynne and every other Mage.  The young girl who`s overcome with self loathing because she`s been taught magic is the cause of all sufferring is a tragic product of the system, Jowan is not.

Having said that I always let Jowan out of the cell to help out because he is, at his heart, a good man, just not overly bright.  He`s recognized he`s at fault (directly and indirectly) for what`s going on and wants to set things right, and I do feel he deserves that chance.

Now that my off topic mutterings are complete I`m thinking Sten opposes letting Jowan out mainly cause he`s a mage.  The Qunari don`t like magic, Jowan`s magic is dangerous even by Fereldan standards, so I can`t see him being overly thrilled about letting him go free.

[TJPags]

HUGE difference between Sten and Jowan.

Jowan, after thinking he might be made tranquil, tries to run.  He steals his phylactery so he can't be caught.  He resorts to Blood Magic.  When caught, he bargains for his life, and agrees to help poison someone.  He makes excuses for his behavior when you find him in the cell.

Sten kills a family, then calmly stands there and lets himself get arrested and thrown in a cage.  He doesn't try to escape.  He doesn't try to get out of the cage (which, btw, always looks pretty damn flimsy to me.  He doesn't try to attack passing people.  Hell, he doesn't even seem to WANT to be let out when you suggest it to him.  He's perfectly willing to be punished for what he did.

So, there are the differences.  Keep in mind also that, as a Qunari, Sten thinks a mages place IS in a cage - so to him, Jowan is right where he belongs, regardless of what he did before that.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

HUGE difference between Sten and Jowan.

Jowan, after thinking he might be made tranquil, tries to run.  He steals his phylactery so he can't be caught.  He resorts to Blood Magic.  When caught, he bargains for his life, and agrees to help poison someone.  He makes excuses for his behavior when you find him in the cell.

Sten kills a family, then calmly stands there and lets himself get arrested and thrown in a cage.  He doesn't try to escape.  He doesn't try to get out of the cage (which, btw, always looks pretty damn flimsy to me.  He doesn't try to attack passing people.  Hell, he doesn't even seem to WANT to be let out when you suggest it to him.  He's perfectly willing to be punished for what he did.

So, there are the differences.  Keep in mind also that, as a Qunari, Sten thinks a mages place IS in a cage - so to him, Jowan is right where he belongs, regardless of what he did before that.

Also, Jowan's blood magic appears to be the reason that they're threatening to make him tranquil in the first place.

[Sarah1281]

jln.francisco wrote...

Jowan, after thinking he might be made tranquil, tries to run. He steals his phylactery so he can't be caught. He resorts to Blood Magic. When caught, he bargains for his life, and agrees to help poison someone. He makes excuses for his behavior when you find him in the cell.

Sten kills a family, then calmly stands there and lets himself get arrested and thrown in a cage. He doesn't try to escape. He doesn't try to get out of the cage (which, btw, always looks pretty damn flimsy to me. He doesn't try to attack passing people. Hell, he doesn't even seem to WANT to be let out when you suggest it to him. He's perfectly willing to be punished for what he did.

This. For all his posturing and tough guy attitude Sten is not a survivor. He will not fight to preserve his life, his dreams or ideals. Jowan will fight to last breath and won't stop until his world comes crashing down on him and then only because it's someone he truly cared for and feels he wronged. That's why I have infinitely more respect for Jowan then I do for Sten. That and Jowan gave me my favorite one liner ever

"Ambiguous rubbish. I can do it too. 'The day grows dark but lo here comes the dawn!'"

Not that Sten didn't have a few of his own but that line is pure win.

For me it's just the opposite. Sten is willing to take responsibility for his actions while Jowan perpetually plays the victim.

[Sarah1281]

To be fair, the odds of finding one lost blade in a war-torn land are NOT good. All Jowan would need to do to find Lily would be to go back to the Circle and force someone there to tell him if not assume she was in Aeonar. I'm not saying doing so would be at all easy, but he'd have a definite starting point.

[Yankee23]

jln.francisco wrote...

Jowan, after thinking he might be made tranquil, tries to run. He steals his phylactery so he can't be caught. He resorts to Blood Magic. When caught, he bargains for his life, and agrees to help poison someone. He makes excuses for his behavior when you find him in the cell.

Sten kills a family, then calmly stands there and lets himself get arrested and thrown in a cage. He doesn't try to escape. He doesn't try to get out of the cage (which, btw, always looks pretty damn flimsy to me. He doesn't try to attack passing people. Hell, he doesn't even seem to WANT to be let out when you suggest it to him. He's perfectly willing to be punished for what he did.

This. For all his posturing and tough guy attitude Sten is not a survivor. He will not fight to preserve his life, his dreams or ideals. Jowan will fight to last breath and won't stop until his world comes crashing down on him and then only because it's someone he truly cared for and feels he wronged. That's why I have infinitely more respect for Jowan then I do for Sten. That and Jowan gave me my favorite one liner ever

"Ambiguous rubbish. I can do it too. 'The day grows dark but lo here comes the dawn!'"

Not that Sten didn't have a few of his own but that line is pure win.

I don't agree that Sten is not a survivor and I certainly wouldn't classify Jowan as one. He bumbles from one hair brained scheme to the next, hurting how many people in the process? If he survives, it's on luck and the kindness of others, not his own actions. Sten firmly believes in taking responsibility for your actions. That is why he stays in the cage. He commited a horrendus crime and belives he deserves to face his punishment, not run from it. He joins the warden because he feel his death fighting the blight may help him find atonement.

[Yankee23]

jln.francisco wrote...

He bumbles from one hair brained scheme to the next, hurting how many people in the process?

Didn't call him smart. I called him determined, which he is. Sten gives up on returning to his homeland and completing the mission his (what imagine must be) general gave him. If he were truly that devoted to his cause he would have at the least completed his task and offered himself for execution later.

If he survives, it's on luck and the kindness of others, not his own actions.

Again, didn't call him smart or particularly talented. He does get lucky but he's also the kind of person willing to jump on those opportunities.(or really any chance to redeem himself or get back what he's lost) Sten isn't.

Imo, Sten is not giving up, he is taking responsibility and when the chance presents itself to continue his mission he does take it. As for Jowan, do you think he is giving up at the end of the Redcliffe quest? He says he will accept whatever fate the warden/Eamon decide for him, which include execution or tranquility. At this point I see it as finally owning up to his actions.

[TJPags]

jln.francisco wrote...

Jowan, after thinking he might be made tranquil, tries to run. He steals his phylactery so he can't be caught. He resorts to Blood Magic. When caught, he bargains for his life, and agrees to help poison someone. He makes excuses for his behavior when you find him in the cell.

Sten kills a family, then calmly stands there and lets himself get arrested and thrown in a cage. He doesn't try to escape. He doesn't try to get out of the cage (which, btw, always looks pretty damn flimsy to me. He doesn't try to attack passing people. Hell, he doesn't even seem to WANT to be let out when you suggest it to him. He's perfectly willing to be punished for what he did.

This. For all his posturing and tough guy attitude Sten is not a survivor. He will not fight to preserve his life, his dreams or ideals. Jowan will fight to last breath and won't stop until his world comes crashing down on him and then only because it's someone he truly cared for and feels he wronged. That's why I have infinitely more respect for Jowan then I do for Sten. That and Jowan gave me my favorite one liner ever

"Ambiguous rubbish. I can do it too. 'The day grows dark but lo here comes the dawn!'"

Not that Sten didn't have a few of his own but that line is pure win.

Seriously?

Sten has integrity.  Jowan has none.  Jowan takes the easy way out.  Not good enough to be a mage because he's dabbling where he shouldn't?  Run off and break some more rules.  Yea, rogue blood mage - good idea.  Oh, yea, and let's have his friend take the heat when he does, oh, and if his girlfriend gives up what she wanted to go with him?  Oh well.  What happened to her, anyway?  Oh yea - caught, right?

When he's caught after he breaks out, what's he do?  Fess up, accept responsibility?  Nope - let me live and I'll poison some for ya.

See, the problem is, Jowan has no ideals.  He wants to live - admirable, but he does it at the expense of others.

I see nothing to admire here.

Sten - lashed out in a moment of grief.  Knew what he did was wrong.  Accepted what would happen to him.  As for his mission, did you miss the past about him being killed on sight if he returned because he had lost his sword?  Yea, so, he CAN'T complete his mission.

He failed his people, he failed his ideals, he failed his own honor, and he did so in a moment of panic - one mistake, one moment of weakness (as opposed to how many for Jowan?) and yet is willing to stand and take what comes, no running, no deals. You have to talk him into coming with you, and even then, he does so because he thinks it's a suicide mission.

THIS is someone to admire.

[Giggles_Manically]

I was iffy on Sten until he said:

I never denied that I failed. To the guardian.



Just the way he said it was awsome, and revealed how much he loathed what he did.

[TJPags]

jln.francisco wrote...

TJ- Like I keep saying, I wasn't calling him smart. I was calling him determined. Sten may have 'accepted responsibility' but he also turned his back on everything else he was supposed to do.

I'm not bashing one character or praising the other,both have qualities that make them interesting and admirable in my eyes. I just value Jowan's resilience more then I admire Sten's silent suffering.

Fair enough, but like I said, Sten COULDN'T complete his mission.

I grant you that Jowan is determined - it's just that all he's determined to do is survive, no matter who he takes down or hurts to do so.

[Bahlgan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I was iffy on Sten until he said:
I never denied that I failed. To the guardian.

Just the way he said it was awsome, and revealed how much he loathed what he did.

That is perhaps the most humble thing I ever heard him say, but I will give him due credit.

As soon as he mentioned to Alistair (after becoming King) that his race is going to enjoy plundering Ferelden when the time came (this was through a conversation) I lost most of my personal respect for him.. Again..

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I was iffy on Sten until he said:
I never denied that I failed. To the guardian.

Just the way he said it was awsome, and revealed how much he loathed what he did.

That is perhaps the most humble thing I ever heard him say, but I will give him due credit.

As soon as he mentioned to Alistair (after becoming King) that his race is going to enjoy plundering Ferelden when the time came (this was through a conversation) I lost most of my personal respect for him.. Again..

I doubt he said that they'd 'enjoy' it. They see it as a duty, not something to do for the lulz. He's not the one who makes that decision, either, he's just making a prediction. I actually respect his honesty there.

[Bahlgan]

Xetirox wrote...

Why does he question your motives for looking for the ashes? Because you're chasing after a fairy tale, that's why. There is absolutely no reason to believe the Ashes still exist, that they're somewhere in Ferelden, and that they actually have healing powers that could cure Eamon. If the game didn't force you to go through with this quest, I wouldn't have taken it either. And to Sten, who isn't an Andrastian, the whole thing is even more absurd.

Honestly, man? They're obviously NOT a fairy tale, I found them and saved Arl Eamon! Sten just needs to learn to trust his allies, that's all.

I chalk it up to Sten's culture. He doesn't see himself as hypocritical, he sees himself as right. His is the only way that works and the rest of the world should abide by that. He's also an ideal soldier. He doesn't think, he just does. He acts and reacts. Notice he never really looks too far into the future on anything. All that's important to him is what is in front of him.

Culture or no, I see Sten and the Qunari as a cocky, oppressive race. His speech towards Shale about relating the humans to monkeys was rather single-mindedly insulting, and made him look in my eyes like someone who watched humans do to HIS mother what the chevailers did to Loghain's mother.

 

I happen to like Sten. Once you get past that, he's a very loyal person and you do have an effect on his outlook. Getting him his sword and befriending him puts a major dent in his "our way is the only way" philosophy.

Somewhat I respect Sten as well, though his original philosophy is the reason why the Qunari invasion against Ferelden had ended up them getting bitten when they didn't expect it.

He also has a really dry wit, which is pretty funny if you listen to him. Some of the right dialogue choices can bring about some sarcastic exchanges, which are downright hilarious.

I will say, some of his humor is actually extremely funny. That which he disses Morrigan, as well as Faryn, and if possible against Anora after the Warden's capture, is amongst his funniest. Oh wait, there's also the one where he calls the Tapster's Tavern community a mass suicide attempt. 

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I doubt he said that they'd 'enjoy' it. They see it as a duty, not something to do for the lulz. He's not the one who makes that decision, either, he's just making a prediction. I actually respect his honesty there.

I don't know about you, but I picked up that he sounded a little too proud about it. But that's just me; not human 

If this is the case, then perhaps that "favor" he says he's willing to repay me for could be to cancel the invasion.

[Sarah1281]

Honestly, man? They're obviously NOT a fairy tale, I found them and saved Arl Eamon! Sten just needs to learn to trust his allies, that's all.

Okay, that is absolutely not fair. "Yeah, you know that mythic relic from another religion that no one but Genitivi and Isolde actually seem to believe exist? We're going to find them and hope they can somehow cure people" isn't very convincing. AFTER you find it then he never says anything like 'Oh, I refuse to believe in what I'm witnessing.' You can't hold that against him. Many people today don't believe time travel is possible but you can bet that if someone from the year 3000 came back right in front of them and took them back to the future with them that they would change their tune.



So what if they happen to exist? There is absolutely no reason to believe that they do until you find them and all of Sten's protests come before.

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I doubt he said that they'd 'enjoy' it. They see it as a duty, not something to do for the lulz. He's not the one who makes that decision, either, he's just making a prediction. I actually respect his honesty there.

I don't know about you, but I picked up that he sounded a little too proud about it. But that's just me; not human 

If this is the case, then perhaps that "favor" he says he's willing to repay me for could be to cancel the invasion.

How could a common soldier cancel an invasion his leaders are planning? Isn't it enough that he warns you? What else is he supposed to do? 

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

How could a common soldier cancel an invasion his leaders are planning? Isn't it enough that he warns you? What else is he supposed to do? 

I thought you to be a little more creative than that. Last I checked, Sten was an elite Qunari and one who could have held the fate of Ferelden by reporting all the good he found in Ferelden. Besides, what makes you think he is a common soldier anyway? He could be one of the Arishok's personal advisors as well. You think they would send mere Qunari farmers against a Blight?

Modifié par Bahlgan, 14 août 2010 - 02:59 .