1638 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

I found the N7 missions in ME2 to be better than the exploration aspect of ME1. Smaller, but the quality was better for me, plus I though that Overlord was going in the right direction, in terms of how "exploration" should be handled for quality settings. I was hoping that was going to be with ME3, but we got fetch quests involving MP maps, but I guess it's unfair to say that since it's DLC and I haven't played any of the ME3 DLC. That underwater segment looked wonderful.

[HiddenInWar]

My vision of it improved after the EC.

[GimmeDaGun]

78stonewobble wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...
Ok, pal. I don't mean to stand in the way of your hatered. If you feel like blaming someone for daring to write something he or she pleases as a writer just because you don't like it or expected something else, then please do. 
I call this childish entitlement, but suit yourself. There's nothing else I could add to this. Only that this whole thing you discribed has nothing to do with Bioware's attitude at all. You're talking about a creative decision.

Happy blaming and hating for you.

Well I tend to think it's equally childish to not be able to receive critique or admit to having screwed up or atleast performed worse than expected.

A food analogy:

I like my meat BURNED! ... allways. I think it's the best thing evah. Can I then only expect praise if I only serve burned meat to everyone else?

Or is it not ok to say to me... "You know what? I actually prefer my meat rare... I actually think your burned meat tastes like coal...."

...

The point being... you can go crazy if you're making something for yourself. If you want to make something for other people? Then you have to take their tastes into account...

Well, they did take the critique from people: they made a public statement and released the EC. Many people - including myself - became satisfied with that. So I think it wasn't a complete failure. 

Criticising something and being entitled and straight out demanding something are two different things. 

As for your last thought. Yes, you're right in a way, but you know it is quite hard to find the right balance between staying true to your own vision and creative ideas and concentrate on pleasing everybody's tastes. If I write a book because I feel the fire in me for writing, I will write it no matter what, without compromise. But if I write something to sell (most best sellers are written with this in mind), I will make compromises and will **** on my own ideas and vision. As an artist you have to decide what you do, express yourself or try to please the general public. Most things written or created with the general public in mind sell pretty well, but get forgotten fast. Most real masterpieces are not written for the general public, usually are not appreciated by most folks but they withstand the test of time and ought to become the most influental pieces of work. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that ME is such a masterpiece (hell, it's just a game) or that it should be. I only say, that there are no rules when it comes to art (any form and level of art). Bioware went with their vision and held to it. Some like it, some don't. I find it a gutsy move and I appreciate it. And I think even story writers for games has a right to make their own vison come alive. 

They took lots of flame for it and they made a smart move: addressed some of the things fans pointed out, but still held to their own vision. 

Back to the beginning. Whining about not getting what you wanted is childish entitlement. It does not equal critique. Also I hate to read some of the posts here preaching about the rules for writing a story. Like there was a "code" or "bible" for writing. Yeah, maybe it works for cheap best sellers and pulp fiction but I'm sure Dostojevsky or Bulgakov, Hamingway etc. "would approve". 

Plus how do you take other people's taste into account? You make a survey? I'm sure, if ME3 had a classic fashion happy ending, many people would whine about it endlessly. You can't please everybody. 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 12 février 2014 - 08:46 .

[weedyfun]

nope. still loathe the ending. even with the EC. Extended Crap. the rest of it is pretty awesome.

[JamesFaith]

78stonewobble wrote...

The point being... you can go crazy if you're making something for yourself. If you want to make something for other people? Then you have to take their tastes into account...

And they did. 

They erased Mako and Hammerhead - I hate driving and flying simulators. I'm no longer forced to work with Cerberus. And no cheesy happyending I personally hate and was afraid of.

Different people, different tastes, no universal solution. You canť take in account all tastes of all potentional buyers and even your own fan forum isn't good indicator about these tastes (like f.e. case of suddenly missed MAKO proved).

[Nole]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I liked the 3 games but thanks to BSN I have come to dislike ME3, a lot.

So in other words you have allowed the bsn to influence you instead of thinking for yourself? 

Now I see things I didn't see the first time I played it.

Modifié par WittingEight65, 12 février 2014 - 08:55 .

[GimmeDaGun]

JamesFaith wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

The point being... you can go crazy if you're making something for yourself. If you want to make something for other people? Then you have to take their tastes into account...

And they did. 

They erased Mako and Hammerhead - I hate driving and flying simulators. I'm no longer forced to work with Cerberus. And no cheesy happyending I personally hate and was afraid of.

Different people, different tastes, no universal solution. You canť take in account all tastes of all potentional buyers and even your own fan forum isn't good indicator about these tastes (like f.e. case of suddenly missed MAKO proved).

True

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 12 février 2014 - 08:58 .

[The Heretic of Time]

I don't hate ME3, I just think it's a bad game in terms of plot and story. Not as bad as ME2 though.

[Reorte]

Still hate the brainless pile of dreck that's the ending. Some other parts I like, and always have. The effects of the disappointment have obviously reduced with time but objectively I've not changed my opinion about anything.

[78stonewobble]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Well, they did take the critique from people: they made a public statement and released the EC. Many people - including myself - became satisfied with that. So I think it wasn't a complete failure. 

Criticising something and being entitled and straight out demanding something are two different things. 

As for your last thought. Yes, you're right in a way, but you know it is quite hard to find the right balance between staying true to your own vision and creative ideas and concentrate on pleasing everybody's tastes. If I write a book because I feel the fire in me for writing, I will write it no matter what, without compromise. But if I write something to sell (most best sellers are written with this in mind), I will make compromises and will **** on my own ideas and vision. As an artist you have to decide what you do, express yourself or try to please the general public. Most things written or created with the general public in mind sell pretty well, but get forgotten fast. Most real masterpieces are not written for the general public, usually are not appreciated by most folks but they withstand the test of time and ought to become the most influental pieces of work. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that ME is such a masterpiece (hell, it's just a game) or that it should be. I only say, that there are no rules when it comes to art (any form and level of art). Bioware went with their vision and held to it. Some like it, some don't. I find it a gutsy move and I appreciate it. And I think even story writers for games has a right to make their own vison come alive. 

They took lots of flame for it and they made a smart move: addressed some of the things fans pointed out, but still held to their own vision. 

Back to the beginning. Whining about not getting what you wanted is childish entitlement. It does not equal critique. Also I hate to read some of the posts here preaching about the rules for writing a story. Like there was a "code" or "bible" for writing. Yeah, maybe it works for cheap best sellers and pulp fiction but I'm sure Dostojevsky or Bulgakov, Hamingway etc. "would approve". 

Plus how do you take other people's taste into account? You make a survey? I'm sure, if ME3 had a classic fashion happy ending, many people would whine about it endlessly. You can't please everybody. 

Well I can't be arsed to get started on the whole art versus product debat.

I will say one thing though... if you want others to buy your product or art... Then you cannot get away with anything you want. So it must be a compromise, between any kind of artistical vision and your desire to get as many people to buy it as possible (or enough people).
 
Please note... I have never demanded anything from bioware and/or thought they owed me anything in regards to the ending. They owe me a working product in so far as consumer laws go, but thats it... That just means it should run...

At most I have said that the games so far were so good that they deserved an ending of the same quality.

I still don't think the mass effect games got the ending they deserved.

The ending, even with the EC, which did improve certain points of critique, still fails on 2 fronts, in my humble oppinion. Logic and emotional impact.

I can respect sticking to your vision, if you, with critique, still come to the conclusion that this is what you wanted. I don't respect sticking to a vision, if you close your eyes and ears to any and all critique. That is denial and an inability to face ones own faults. 

I've also never said the game "needed" a happy ending. Personally I would have liked the choice and/or possibility of one, but whether the ending is sad or happy is not the point....

The point is that the ending, due to it's low quality, failed in making me feel either sad or happy.

So if atleast one of the success criteria for the ending was to make me, as a player (just me the individual) happy or sad or feel an appropriate emotional impact comparative to the rest of the game, then they have failed.

That in itself is not really an indication of whether the ending with or without the EC is a success or not. That would require us to know what the intention with the ending was and a broad statistical representative sampling of what people thought of it and whether that matches the intentions.

Personally? I think that they didn't get a majority of the players to experience the ending as they intended it.

Again it doesn't mean bioware owes me anything... I've gotten my moneys worth in entertainment from the games and I still like the games.

The point of critique now? ... Is to make your's and mine's points of view known, so that we might get better games in the future. Games that fit us...

If I'm all alone in my oppinions, say I like bacon pants, then there is a good chance noone will cater to me... but if alot of people feel like bacon pants... then maybe someone will deliver and all us bacon pantsers can rejoice and that is win.

[78stonewobble]

JamesFaith wrote...

And they did. 

They erased Mako and Hammerhead - I hate driving and flying simulators. I'm no longer forced to work with Cerberus. And no cheesy happyending I personally hate and was afraid of.

Different people, different tastes, no universal solution. You canť take in account all tastes of all potentional buyers and even your own fan forum isn't good indicator about these tastes (like f.e. case of suddenly missed MAKO proved).

The mako and hammerhead were changes I agreed with. I wouldn't mind a tank or fighter simulator set in the me universe, but in the context of the action RPG, they felt a bit tacked on, even if a little bit is a nice diversion from trotting around on foot.

But I'd have preferred a cheesy happy ending that leaves me happy even if it's cheesy. That atleast would have been more emotionally engaging than what we got... which left me: "hmm ... well that happened...

[Iakus]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that ME is such a masterpiece (hell, it's just a game) or that it should be. I only say, that there are no rules when it comes to art (any form and level of art). Bioware went with their vision and held to it. Some like it, some don't. I find it a gutsy move and I appreciate it. And I think even story writers for games has a right to make their own vison come alive. 

Even at the expense of the company's reputation and good name?

Back to the beginning. Whining about not getting what you wanted is childish entitlement. It does not equal critique. Also I hate to read some of the posts here preaching about the rules for writing a story. Like there was a "code" or "bible" for writing. Yeah, maybe it works for cheap best sellers and pulp fiction but I'm sure Dostojevsky or Bulgakov, Hamingway etc. "would approve". 

I don't consider calling them on their thematically inconsistent, arbitrarilly horrific/tragic "art" to be whining.  Nor do I call wanting a retuirn to that consistency being "entitled"

Plus how do you take other people's taste into account? You make a survey? I'm sure, if ME3 had a classic fashion happy ending, many people would whine about it endlessly. You can't please everybody. 

By going the DAO route and letting people shape their own endings.

But then, I would have thought Bioware wouldn't need a survey to realize that these endings wouldn't go over well.  But clearly I gave them too much credit.

[CronoDragoon]

WittingEight65 wrote...

I liked the 3 games but thanks to BSN I have come to dislike ME3, a lot.

That's a damn shame, man, because I guarantee you that overexposure to negativity of any game or show or movie will turn you against it, and that flaws are abundant for most things you enjoy.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 12 février 2014 - 10:26 .

[Iakus]

JamesFaith wrote...

Different people, different tastes, no universal solution. You canť take in account all tastes of all potentional buyers and even your own fan forum isn't good indicator about these tastes (like f.e. case of suddenly missed MAKO proved).

Different people, different tastes, hundreds, if not thousands of choices made over five years and three games.

All funnelled into a Walter White ending.

Bravo, Bioware.  Bravo.

[SwobyJ]

iakus it's because we're going to play a cybernetic NeoShepard in the next game. We all need to suffer the same general fate.

[Iakus]

SwobyJ wrote...

iakus it's because we're going to play a cybernetic NeoShepard in the next game. We all need to suffer the same general fate.

I'm not playing someone who was forced to submit to the Qun.  And I'm certainly not drinking the green qamek

[SwobyJ]

iakus wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

iakus it's because we're going to play a cybernetic NeoShepard in the next game. We all need to suffer the same general fate.

I'm not playing someone who was forced to submit to the Qun.  And I'm certainly not drinking the green qamek

Then pick Destroy and it'll be close enough to avoiding it. Even combating it. Just, you know, being more cybernetic than before is all.

Or maybe Control. Maybe.

Just definitely not Synthesis!!!!!!

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

Different people, different tastes, hundreds, if not thousands of choices made over five years and three games.

All funnelled into a Walter White ending.

Bravo, Bioware.  Bravo.

Please explain how it's a "Walter White ending".  

And yes, I've read Walters' quote about not having complete and utter control over Shepard's fate. 

[dreamgazer]

I'm curious: are the people who have been complaining about Mass Effect since ME2 and still lamenting the ending really considering playing the next game?

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

Different people, different tastes, hundreds, if not thousands of choices made over five years and three games.

All funnelled into a Walter White ending.

Bravo, Bioware.  Bravo.

Please explain how it's a "Walter White ending".  

And yes, I've read Walters' quote about not having complete and utter control over Shepard's fate. 

Try any control

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

Different people, different tastes, hundreds, if not thousands of choices made over five years and three games.

All funnelled into a Walter White ending.

Bravo, Bioware.  Bravo.

Please explain how it's a "Walter White ending".  

And yes, I've read Walters' quote about not having complete and utter control over Shepard's fate. 

Try any control

I had some control over Shepard's fate, actually. So did many others.

[CptData]

Well, do I -hate- ME3?
No.

What I do hate is the poor job done in various aspects of the game, like inconsistent quality of story telling and, of course, the way how the series got finished. However, the game itself comes with a good 'though a bit too fast combat system and the first two third of the story are done quite nicely, namely the Turian/Krogan-plot (including the cure) and the Quarian/Geth-plot as well.

Another isse I do have is the inconsistent gameplay throughout the series. ME1, ME2 and ME3 feel entirely different gameplay wise. The difference between ME1 and ME2 is MASSIVE, so to speak. Same for the way how the story is told: although it adds a lot of immersion, all those loyalty-missions take away too much focus from the main plot in ME2, while in ME1 it was possible to do most side missions without getting distracted too much. ME3 feels different as well, since only a few missions can be done outside the main plot, most side missions are scan-jobs only and the few landing missions are more or less related to the story in one or another way.

Well, whatever. My current dream - one I wish I could make reality - is to reboot the entire series and try to fix all those issues. And change the story here and there to make it more consistent, more immersive, more RPGish ... you name it.

So: no hate for ME3, just "issues" with various parts of that game AND the series in general.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

I had some control over Shepard's fate, actually. So did many others.

Yeah, I could
Let the Reapers enslave the galaxy (under new management)
Exterminate an entire for of life
Force the galaxy to sumbit to the Qun

In addition, Commander Shepard could, based on the above act:
Electrocute himself
Walk into an explosion
Disintegrate in a beam of space magic

Sorry, not good enough.  Not by a long shot. 

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

I had some control over Shepard's fate, actually. So did many others.

Yeah, I could
Let the Reapers enslave the galaxy (under new management)
Exterminate an entire for of life
Force the galaxy to sumbit to the Qun

In addition, Commander Shepard could, based on the above act:
Electrocute himself
Walk into an explosion
Disintegrate in a beam of space magic

Sorry, not good enough.  Not by a long shot. 

Whether you consider it good enough or not isn't in question.  You did have some control. 

[Reorte]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

I had some control over Shepard's fate, actually. So did many others.

Yeah, I could
Let the Reapers enslave the galaxy (under new management)
Exterminate an entire for of life
Force the galaxy to sumbit to the Qun

In addition, Commander Shepard could, based on the above act:
Electrocute himself
Walk into an explosion
Disintegrate in a beam of space magic

Sorry, not good enough.  Not by a long shot. 

Whether you consider it good enough or not isn't in question.  You did have some control. 

Yeah, and "Your money or your life" is a choice too.