1638 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

people die when facing impossible odds. People die for no reason at all. It's not bogus in any way whatsoever. What is bogus is the idea that Shepard (for example) should have had any control over whether he lived or died in the situation he was put in, all based on his decisions. Complete and utter garbage. Maybe his choices changed the journey, maybe it could change the playing field, but to say that 'oh, he made this choice awhile back....therefore he is able to somehow avoid this completely unavoidable situation now'.....that's just stuuuuupid. About as stupid as these 'conventional victory was possible' arguments. Death is certain.


Contrary to whatever you believe, death isn't always avoidable. You however, would prefer that it was (who doesn't?). Wishful thinking it seems. I'm merely hoping that this simple fact of life is conveyed in the next game. That's all.

 

People can also survive when facing what seems to be impossible odds as well. People can survive even when we are positive that a certain situation could have only ended in death. In any case, you are not getting what it is that I'm actually referring to as bogus. I don't think that it's bogus that people die when the odds are stacked against them, or that people die for no reason at all. What I'm saying is bogus is your reasoning for wanting the character to die. You said that you want the character to be more "grounded in reality", but you made the mistake of connecting this idea to the concept of the character dying. There is nothing inherently more realistic about the character's death than the survival in and of itself, especially since we have no concept of what the story is about, or what the final confrontation will be. What you want is a situation in which the character can't do anything but die, but that doesn't necessarily make it realistic. If you want the character to die, I can understand that. I don't agree, but understand, but I don't accept that it's to be "realistic", because realism has nothing to do with it.

 

What is it that you know of my beliefs anyway? This is a video game, a toy, not a life lesson. Despite the deeper narrative, this is still a plaything for us to load our consoles and PC's with. I'm curious as to how the previous Mass Effect games did not convey this simple fact of life already. I mean, unless you're totally indifferent to every character whose death is unavoidable, or must be traded in exchange for the death of someone else.

[Mcfly616]

Grounded in reality as in, I want to fear for my character. I don't want to go into every situation or game knowing that 'I got this. Time to kick ass and save the day because I'm a Space Messiah goddammit!' No, I want to feel fear. Fear for the life of my character throughout the journey and by it's end. As in GoT, nobody is safe....so too, I wish it were with Mass Effect. I wish nobody were safe. And if that's going to be the case, then the next game would have to be a standalone self-contained story with no planned sequel. Which is what I'm hoping for. Actually, I hope every Mass Effect game is like that for now on. More narrative freedom, creativity and branching. Less catering to fanboys who want this or that character to appear in the sequel as a love interest.

[KaiserShep]

Fearing for the character is something you may be able to do if the story guides you in that direction, only to have the character pull through anyway. Of course, you may be disappointed if your fear is not fulfilled with a grim end for the PC, but it would still remain that you were afraid for the protagonist's life. In any case, you simply want the character dead in the end with no way for players to avoid it. I can't help but get the impression that the death itself is more important than how the character gets there.

 

As for Game of Thrones, as much as I love that show, I wouldn't want every piece of fiction to be like it.

[AlanC9]

 

As for Game of Thrones, as much as I love that show, I wouldn't want every piece of fiction to be like it.

 

We have a recurring problem on this board where someone takes the position "games shouldn't do X" or "RPGs shouldn't do X" when the real claim is only that "an ME game shouldn't do X." I'm generally pro-X when those arguments come around (depending on the value of X, of course) , but these are very different arguments.

[Reorte]

Yes, fear for my character indeed. I very much want that, but I'm not going to fear for them if their end is inevitable, I'm just going to end up annoyed at the writers.

[Reorte]

Grounded in reality as in, I want to fear for my character. I don't want to go into every situation or game knowing that 'I got this. Time to kick ass and save the day because I'm a Space Messiah goddammit!'

No to space messiah but you want the character to die to achieve the victory?

[Iakus]

No to space messiah but you want the character to die to achieve the victory?

 

Sounds like the very definition of "Space Messiah" to me...

[ImaginaryMatter]

Contrary to whatever you believe, death isn't always avoidable. You however, would prefer that it was (who doesn't?). Wishful thinking it seems. I'm merely hoping that this simple fact of life is conveyed in the next game. That's all.

 

Similarly death isn't always inevitable. My objection to Shepard's death is that it doesn't seem natural, all the endings seem to have him die as some arbitrary element to activating the Crucible.

 

It all depends on the story told and from that perspective it seems like your wish for the protagonist to die is based more on your own whims than any practical story telling reason. You can't really convey fear for a character in a video game, because that would break the game (you'll know they live because the game is ties to them), I think the only way to actually do that is if the game ended and you have to start the story over whenever your character dies.

[Iakus]

Grounded in reality as in, I want to fear for my character. I don't want to go into every situation or game knowing that 'I got this. Time to kick ass and save the day because I'm a Space Messiah goddammit!' No, I want to feel fear. Fear for the life of my character throughout the journey and by it's end. As in GoT, nobody is safe....so too, I wish it were with Mass Effect. I wish nobody were safe. And if that's going to be the case, then the next game would have to be a standalone self-contained story with no planned sequel. Which is what I'm hoping for. Actually, I hope every Mass Effect game is like that for now on. More narrative freedom, creativity and branching. Less catering to fanboys who want this or that character to appear in the sequel as a love interest.

 

While I agree that games should be standalone, that is completely separate from "The main character needs to die"  Just as you're calling for your character not being safe, I don't want my character to be doomed either.  That's no more fun that being an unstoppable force of nature.

 

Actually, even being an unstoppable force of nature can be fun for a little while before getting boring

[CronoDragoon]

I can't help but get the impression that the death itself is more important than how the character gets there.

 

That really depends. For example, I think it would work if BioWare shined a light on it. You make it known from the beginning that the main character is going to die at the end, and you make the game about how he lived his life and the decisions he made that led him to this end. This can change the narrative about the death, and refocus the actual narrative on the life.

 

This is the point of every story that tells you the end then goes back through the events which led to it right? And also probably every prequel.

[Reorte]

That really depends. For example, I think it would work if BioWare shined a light on it. You make it known from the beginning that the main character is going to die at the end, and you make the game about how he lived his life and the decisions he made that led him to this end. This can change the narrative about the death, and refocus the actual narrative on the life.

 

This is the point of every story that tells you the end then goes back through the events which led to it right? And also probably every prequel.

And that isn't a story format I enjoy (it may be a good story in spite of it, never because).

[KaiserShep]

That really depends. For example, I think it would work if BioWare shined a light on it. You make it known from the beginning that the main character is going to die at the end, and you make the game about how he lived his life and the decisions he made that led him to this end. This can change the narrative about the death, and refocus the actual narrative on the life.

 

This is the point of every story that tells you the end then goes back through the events which led to it right? And also probably every prequel.

 

This idea strikes me as being even more problematic than Dragon Age 2's framed narrative. At least with the framed narrative, you only got hints about things that may happen later in the game, but here, it basically tells you from the word jump that you're basically going to spend hours of playtime just to die, unless it pulls a Rango and the character lives, despite the mariachi owls' predictions.

[CronoDragoon]

This idea strikes me as being even more problematic than Dragon Age 2's framed narrative. At least with the framed narrative, you only got hints about things that may happen later in the game, but here, it basically tells you from the word jump that you're basically going to spend hours of playtime just to die, unless it pulls a Rango and the character lives, despite the mariachi owls' predictions.

 

You feel dying invalidates everything your player can accomplish during the game?

[KaiserShep]

You feel dying invalidates everything your player can accomplish during the game?

 

This goes back to my issue with having a fixed death rather than having a plot in which you can affect whether or not this happens. It doesn't make a difference whether or not the game warns the player that this is going to happen. I really dislike this format, because it doesn't make the story better; it merely spoils a part of it.

[Iakus]

You feel dying invalidates everything your player can accomplish during the game?

 

Unless they deal with it with the utmost care, yes.  I have found that very few games do.

 

Goes double for games that tout player choice and agency.

 

ME3's virtual railroading of Shepard's death was pathetically badly handled.  It's one of those things that, to me, invalidated the entire trilogy, not just this game.

 

Possible death is fine.  Mandatory death?  Better be 11% you know what you're doing.

[CronoDragoon]

This goes back to my issue with having a fixed death rather than having a plot in which you can affect whether or not this happens. It doesn't make a difference whether or not the game warns the player that this is going to happen. I really dislike this format, because it doesn't make the story better; it merely spoils a part of it.

 

Is this a video game specific opinion, or have you never encountered any story that shows the end first and enjoyed it?

 

 

Unless they deal with it with the utmost care, yes.  I have found that very few games do.

 

Very few games attempt it, so that's not telling me much. For an example of this done well, see Final Fantasy Tactics.

 

Also, doesn't your PC die at the end of Planescape Torment? I haven't played it.

[Iakus]

 

 

Very few games attempt it, so that's not telling me much. For an example of this done well, see Final Fantasy Tactics.

 

Also, doesn't your PC die at the end of Planescape Torment? I haven't played it.

Very few games attempt it because it's a very difficult thing to pull off.

 

Planescape: Torment is one of two games I can think of that actually managed to pull it off well.

 

In the end, once The Nameless One has recovered his mortality, his soul is pulled into the Blood War for his past crimes.  However, this is the D&D universe, and death is not necessarilly the end.  Falls From Grace can even promises to scour the lower planes try to recover his soul.

 

The Nameless One: I CANNOT REMAIN HERE FOR MUCH LONGER.  MY PUNISHMENT CALLS, AND FATE AND TIME SHALL SOON BE HERE.  I WILL RETURN YOU TO SIGIL IF YOU WISH.

Fall-From-Grace: That is not my wish.  I will find you again, no matter where in Lower Planes you will be - just as you shall be able to find me.

The Nameless One: IT MAY BE A LONG TIME.  WHERE I AM BOUND, TIME IS NOT MEASURED IN YEARS, AND THE CRIMES I COMMITTED ARE STRONGER THAN ANY CAGE.

Fall-From-Grace: No cage shall separate us, and no Plane shall divide us.  Keep thinking of me, and we shall meet again.

[PCThug]

The ending of ME3 doesn't annoy me as much as the continuing over the top hysterics over it does.

[KaiserShep]

The ending of ME3 doesn't annoy me as much as the continuing over the top hysterics over it does.

 

 

Good to know that you don't own any puppies. ME3 killed all of mine.

[Perpetual Nirvana]

The ending of ME3 doesn't annoy me as much as the continuing over the top hysterics over it does.

 

Pretty much the same. It probably helps that I wasn't there from the start. I only got into Mass Effect when ME3 was avalible on PS+. I gave it a whirl, got enamoured and bought the rest of the trilogy. So I have a certain fondness for ME3.

 

But I still remember back when anger over the endings first started and wondering what all the fuss was about. I get it now but I'm not all "Lucas Bioware killed my childhood!" Hell, I *whisper it* actually like the Control ending.

[Eralrik]

I just finished playing ME1 and 2 reinstalled ME3 and I still feel disheartened when I launch the game while I enjoyed the ride for the most part some things stuck me the wrong way still.

 

As having been a soldier in RL I understand that we may have to lay our life on the line and I understand it for Shepard's sake as well but his death at the end felt so meaningless and contrived as to say "Good job Shepard we don't need you anymore so were going to sacrifice you to end the series".

 

No chance that Shepard could have survived I mean watching Shepard walk towards the Destroy part firing his handgun of infinite ammo I mean really if I was there I would have taken a knee and fired at it from range <Sniper Shepard> to allow myself a chance to roll away from the explosion, not commit suicide.

 

While I enjoyed ME3 for the most part I just choose option 4 because all the races in the galaxy are morons and need to be wiped out at least that was my take from Bioware adding that 4th option. I don't bother with control as I don't seek it and I don't want it, Synthesis not going to do it as I like myself just the way I am and I don't listen to machines bent on screwed up logic.

 

But I still love ME1 & ME2 the most.

[Cknarf]

I've never hated ME3.  Ever.  I didn't have as much fun as I did playing ME2, but it is still a great game.

Pretty much everyone had an issue with the endings.  I did to some extent, but I sure as hell never went online and whined about it.  Seems like every few days around here another thread pops up:  "Endings, waaaahhhh." 

Some people were furious.  I was just kinda disappointed.  I was hoping for some crazy final battle, like in ME2, but there wasn't.  "Man, those 3 waves of enemies were pretty challenging.  I can't imagine what's next!"  Then that's pretty much it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I just finished playing ME1 and 2 reinstalled ME3 and I still feel disheartened when I launch the game while I enjoyed the ride for the most part some things stuck me the wrong way still.

 

As having been a soldier in RL I understand that we may have to lay our life on the line and I understand it for Shepard's sake as well but his death at the end felt so meaningless and contrived as to say "Good job Shepard we don't need you anymore so were going to sacrifice you to end the series".

 

No chance that Shepard could have survived I mean watching Shepard walk towards the Destroy part firing his handgun of infinite ammo I mean really if I was there I would have taken a knee and fired at it from range <Sniper Shepard> to allow myself a chance to roll away from the explosion, not commit suicide.

 

While I enjoyed ME3 for the most part I just choose option 4 because all the races in the galaxy are morons and need to be wiped out at least that was my take from Bioware adding that 4th option. I don't bother with control as I don't seek it and I don't want it, Synthesis not going to do it as I like myself just the way I am and I don't listen to machines bent on screwed up logic.

 

But I still love ME1 & ME2 the most.

 

Ya, a lot of the stuff about the Destroy ending is pretty goofy. I guess it was supposed to be symbolic -- like Destroying the Reapers is a violent act so there has to be shooting and explosions for it to activate, and like the rest of the endings Shepard had accepted their death which is why they walked towards the thing. But it still is rather sill... (dang it David) goofy.

 

I'm glad there is another Refuser, I thought everyone had died out like the rest of the galaxy.

[Eralrik]

I figure I would let the next cycle figure out that the Reapers Intelligence is very moronic and maybe they could figure a way to open a portal to the Dark Matter they rest in and launch Missiles at the Reapers all with Shepard VI's commenting "I delete Moron's".

 

BOOM!! Nap time is over!