1638 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Ok. So if you actually WERE Shepherd - formulating your world-view, with incremental piecemeal information about what was happening in the galaxy and got to that confrontantion and were suddenly told:
 

"its for your own good -and there's only three options"

 

would you buy it? Those three (whatever they actually were) was it. Nothing else. Oh and you must choose form these.

 

REALLY?

 

I wouldn't. Regardless of what the User Interface trying to sell this looked like.

 

Given the whole purpose of the trilogy seemed to be to break free of Reaper influence, and let the galaxy create thier own path, no "solution" volunteered by the Reaper controlling intelligence seems valid.

 

Find another way.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Given the whole purpose of the trilogy seemed to be to break free of Reaper influence, and let the galaxy create thier own path, no "solution" volunteered by the Reaper controlling intelligence seems valid.

 

Find another way.

You'd have thought that a conventional victory would have been an option after finding out what the Crucible would do, but nooooooooooo. Apparently having the fleet of every race worth a godddamn doesnt mean that you can just be a big goddamn hero, even if you do have 3 to 1 odds in numbers.

 

Not that the odds mean much since UNSC in Halo had the same odds when they went to retake Harvest. They won, but got the **** stomped out of them in the process with massive casualties on their side.

[Mcfly616]

I think you need to look up what a 'solution' is.
 
"The Reapers are mine. I control them. They are my solution."
 
A stalling action, the Reapers, can be a solution. Not a perfect one, but we rarely have those. Organic or Synthetic, even in the MEU.
 
Only when Synthesis appears, does the Catalyst view Synthesis as the solution - no earlier. Until then, the experiment itself is the solution. They are connected, but not the exact same as you seem to be putting it.
 
You don't know the solution until you find it. Until Synthesis is there, the Reapers are the solution. Not the means to the end. They were the end and the beginning.

Wrong. You can know a 'solution without knowing how to achieve it.


And now you're taking a line and generalizing it. The Reapers are it's solution to what? To Chaos. What is this chaos? The organic/synthetic conflict. The galaxy is a controlled experiment in the search for the solution to this conflict. The Reapers are a controlled variable.


I think we have very different definitions of 'solution'. You see a 'cover-up' as a solution because it possibly conceals and/or suppresses the problem. Whereas I don't see anything as a solution unless it literally solves the core problem. Control or Destroy don't solve it because the issue is inherent in our nature. It's in our nature to destroy ourselves. So we need to change nature in order to change that.

[Iakus]

 

 

I tried control -but that didnt't wok either for me. Frankly all of the options felt to me like a varying capitulation to evil.  Perhaps that's the underlying story of the mass effect trilogy? Fight hard, but ultimately its someone elses choice and power that decides your fate? And by the way you're all actually in purgatory?

 

 

Thisthisthisthisthisthisthis

[SwobyJ]

Wrong. You can know a 'solution without knowing how to achieve it.


And now you're taking a line and generalizing it. The Reapers are it's solution to what? To Chaos. What is this chaos? The organic/synthetic conflict. The galaxy is a controlled experiment in the search for the solution to this conflict. The Reapers are a controlled variable.


I think we have very different definitions of 'solution'. You see a 'cover-up' as a solution because it possibly conceals and/or suppresses the problem. Whereas I don't see anything as a solution unless it literally solves the core problem. Control or Destroy don't solve it because the issue is inherent in our nature. It's in our nature to destroy ourselves. So we need to change nature in order to change that.

 

...

 

Solving something isn't the same as the solution to something.

 

You can find a solution without it solving a problem. A solution doesn't have to be perfect.

 

Both the Reaping and Synthesis were solutions to the chaos. Chaos was what the Catalyst considered to be the problem of organic-synthetic relations. Reaping was considered to be the solution until Synthesis emerged as the ideal solution. That's it.

 

If you don't understand these simple concepts, this may be my last post about it.

[SwobyJ]

Thisthisthisthisthisthisthis

 

Well, it is.

 

Shepard was never in control. (EDITL: or rather, he wasn't in control of much external to him, except himself, his decisions, and what person he was going to be at the end of the line)

 

Each game showed Shepard at some mercy/service of something external to him. Cerberus, Alliance, his own death, and perhaps the Reapers themselves..

 

But the trilogy (or in this case the ending) wasn't as dark as you insist imo. It was also about the value of resistance, perseverance, and the struggle against even the most impossible oppression. I do think Shepard made things right in the end.

 

But maybe, he wasn't as good as we thought he was from the start. Maybe.

[kavox]

 
Wait a second. I agree that Shepard doesn't have a choice to not sacrifice herself -- since she doesn't know she's going to make it through Destroy, as far as she knows she's done for whatever she decides.But Shepard isn't sacrificing herself to solve the Catalyst's problem,  unless that's what you decide she's doing. Of the four options only one solves the problem (assuming it's a real problem in the first place); Destroy makes the situation worse, Refuse is a punt, and Control is a crapshoot.

 

That depends on what you mean by "meant to be." Bio didn't ever intend to not have a big reveal of the Reapers' origins and purpose at the end of the series, apparently. Whenever they talk about their writing process they talk about deciding what the reveal should be, as opposed to deciding whether there should be one at all. You were always going to see the man behind the curtain.

 

 

Your goal is simple: Stop the Reapers, save the galaxy from mass genocide. Controlling the Reapers isn't the goal since they would still present a major threat since Shepard is now a Reaper God. Synthesis isn't the goal because it destroys the idea of self-determination which is one of the big ideas behind this game. Refuse makes sense since you can't and shouldn't trust the main antagonist who has perpetrated mass genocide countless time, but you lose because......wait for it....You can't win conventionally! Destroy also makes sense but it destroys EDI and the Geth, so that whole subplot of EDI evolving as a person is now mute and the most interesting race in the series is now extinct, woot!

 

The Reapers themselves are influenced by what is now called Lovecraft Horror. HP Lovecraft created Cthulu  and The Old Ones and countless other beings that are far beyond our comprehension. The whole mission on the dead Reaper in ME2 took right from the Mountains of Madness in that the dead Reaper still dreams and it drives those near it crazy. This is exactly what Cthulu does, it is so powerful that even in death, its dreams drive mere mortals mad. Imagine of Lovecraft had then come out and say 'Nope, Cthulu is actually controlled by this little squid named Fred, that's been hiding inside Minneapolis, and he drives people insane for his own entertainment. That would deflate everything that came before it and be nonsensical.

[SwobyJ]

Who says Shepard isn't driven crazy?

[AlanC9]

Given the whole purpose of the trilogy seemed to be to break free of Reaper influence, and let the galaxy create thier own path, no "solution" volunteered by the Reaper controlling intelligence seems valid.
 
Find another way.

Or look around for one, anyway. Just wanting to find another way doesn't guarantee that one exists.

[SwobyJ]

So... basically... Shepad is rubbish?

 

Actually - if Shepard goes along with (after all we've seen previously) the frankly dubiuous spiel at the end... then... yeah. Shepherd IS rubbsih. More naive than... well I can't thin of an exmaple? Someone who thinks "heartbleed" isn't a big deal?
 

 

Is Aria or Omega rubbish compared to the Citadel or Council? Even it proves itself more helpful in the story during wartime?

 

Is the Krogan rubbish compared to the Turians or Salarians? Even as they saved the galaxy from the Rachni and helped save it from the Reapers?

 

Is the Alliance rubbish compared to Cerberus (remember that Cerberus is canon that it guided humanity the last decades)? Even as it built the Crucible?

 

Are the Quarians rubbish compared to the Geth? Even as it was a Quarian that even caused the fight against Saren to begin with?

 

Sure, the have less power and control over what happens, but sometimes they're... exactly what a problem needs... a little chaos to shake things up.

 

"I don't need luck, I have ammo!"

 

But yes, in my opinion, the next Mass Effect protagonist will have quite a bit more 'power' than Shepard did, even towards his end.

 

A Shepard that picked Control or Synth did betray his allies though. He..just did. He went against all intentions he was placed with. Pick Control and you establish your independence from what Commander Shepard was 'supposed' to be. Pick Synthesis and you outright 'side' with the enemy.

 

But I don't think he was rubbish. Ever.

[Iakus]

 

But the trilogy (or in this case the ending) wasn't as dark as you insist imo. It was also about the value of resistance, perseverance, and the struggle against even the most impossible oppression. I do think Shepard made things right in the end.

 

I don't.  And I don't care how many smiley face stickers Bioware sticks on the endings.

 

Every ending forces Shepard to become like the Reapers;

 

Destroy:  Shepard performs his/her own culling.  Only this time it was of synthetic life rather than organic

Control:  Shepard creates a Reaper intelligence in his/her own 'image" and takes over the galaxy, forever dooming said galaxy to forever develop only down the path the Reapers desire.

Synthesis: The galaxy is forced against its will to be "uplifted" to some new form dictated by the Catalyst. 

Or you can Refuse: where Bioware flips the table and goes "Rocks fall, everyone dies!"

 

To me, the ending was an echo of Sovereign's line in ME1:  "You exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it.

[Iakus]

Or look around for one, anyway. Just wanting to find another way doesn't guarantee that one exists.

 

Not when Bioware is determined to think you're just confused, anyway.

[SwobyJ]

I don't.  And I don't care how many smiley face stickers Bioware sticks on the endings.

 

Every ending forces Shepard to become like the Reapers;

 

Destroy:  Shepard performs his/her own culling.  Only this time it was of synthetic life rather than organic

Control:  Shepard creates a Reaper intelligence in his/her own 'image" and takes over the galaxy, forever dooming said galaxy to forever develop only down the path the Reapers desire.

Synthesis: The galaxy is forced against its will to be "uplifted" to some new form dictated by the Catalyst. 

Or you can Refuse: where Bioware flips the table and goes "Rocks fall, everyone dies!"

 

To me, the ending was an echo of Sovereign's line in ME1:  "You exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it.

 

Elcor Hamlet may be of Elcor, but it is a tragedy nonetheless.

[DeinonSlayer]

Given the whole purpose of the trilogy seemed to be to break free of Reaper influence, and let the galaxy create thier own path, no "solution" volunteered by the Reaper controlling intelligence seems valid.
 
Find another way.

Like what?

You're in the Catalyst's chamber, bleeding badly, with outside commo cut off. You've just now heard your options and you don't like them. Think fast.

Me? I'll be shooting that tube over there. Maybe from a bit further back, though.

[AlanC9]

Not when Bioware is determined to think you're just confused, anyway.

Not ever. Why should magical thinking work any better in the MEU than it does in this one?

[voteDC]

Given that Shepard's communicator clearly still worked, why didn't Shepard tell Hackett to target his/her location and blow the hell out of the Catalyst.

I'm also glad to read that some do agree with my position. Shepard would not believe the thing that has just said that it created and controls the Reapers and then offers the choice of being blown up, electrocuted or disintegrated.

[Bob from Accounting]

Given that Shepard's communicator clearly still worked, why didn't Shepard tell Hackett to target his/her location and blow the hell out of the Catalyst.

I'm also glad to read that some do agree with my position. Shepard would not believe the thing that has just said that it created and controls the Reapers and then offers the choice of being blown up, electrocuted or disintegrated.

 

Because that's moronic.

 

There's zero indication whatsoever to indicate it would accomplish anything other than killing Shepard.
 

[Iakus]

This is really just very dumb.

 

You sound like a teenager angry at their mother. "I'm going to do the opposite of whatever you tell me! That'll show you to try and have influence over me!!!"

 

 

The entire situation was very dumb and should never have existed

[Iakus]

Not ever. Why should magical thinking work any better in the MEU than it does in this one?

 

I dunno.  Magical thinking got us RGB for the Catalyst.  Send some of that pixie dust over this way!

[Bob from Accounting]

The situation of the Reapers having 'influence' over the galaxy isn't dumb in the slightest.

[Iakus]

The situation of the Reapers having 'influence' over the galaxy isn't dumb in the slightest.

 

But that Shepard must use their own methods in order to"win" is.

[voteDC]

There's zero indication whatsoever to indicate it would accomplish anything other than killing Shepard.

 

So you don't think that destroying the thing that has just told you it controls the Reapers is going to have any affect at all?

If you are willing to believe that Catalyst about the three choices it offers, then why is believing that destroying it will have a debilitating effect on the Reapers impossible?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Given that Shepard's communicator clearly still worked, why didn't Shepard tell Hackett to target his/her location and blow the hell out of the Catalyst.

I'm also glad to read that some do agree with my position. Shepard would not believe the thing that has just said that it created and controls the Reapers and then offers the choice of being blown up, electrocuted or disintegrated.

 

What would it accomplish? You'd shoot the Crucible and kill Shepard while damaging the Citadel. You just screwed the 3 things you need to win the war.