1638 réponses à ce sujet

[I Tsunayoshi I]

There's not much evidence to suggest the Leviathans are intelligent/wise/clever at all. They rose to power and maintained it because they were able to control the minds of others, not due to intelligence or competence in any other aspect.

 

Well I did also say that they claimed to be the Apex Race, which couldnt be true if they were hiding like little bitches.

[AlanC9]

There's not much evidence to suggest the Leviathans are intelligent/wise/clever at all. They rose to power and maintained it because they were able to control the minds of others, not due to intelligence or competence in any other aspect.

 

Like Larry Niven's thrintun, yep. You don't need intelligence when you have the Power.

[ImaginaryMatter]

There's not much evidence to suggest the Leviathans are intelligent/wise/clever at all. They rose to power and maintained it because they were able to control the minds of others, not due to intelligence or competence in any other aspect.

 

I don't think they were intended to be as such, but they certainly come off that way.

[CronoDragoon]

I don't think they were intended to be as such, but they certainly come off that way.

It certainly fits with the running theme of general incompetence from those in positions of power that permeates Mass Effect pretty much from start to finish. Whether that theme was supposed to be as pervasive as it became, well...

[AlanC9]

You can save the population of the rest of New York, if you're prepared to sacrifice and immediatelty incinerate every person in Long Island?

I'd do it, sure.

Back to the original question - are the synthetics less valuable that the humans? Why?

I'd say they are not less valuable. In situations where they aren't destroyed at Rannoch my Shepards typically won't pick Destroy, though I can come up with RP reasons to do it anyway if I really work at it.

[CronoDragoon]

I'm not going to trace back where the line of debate started, but what prompted the comparison of synthetic value to humans? Picking Destroy?

[CronoDragoon]

It's not about the worth of Synthetics vs Humans. It's about the worth of some people vs some other people.

That is, i think, a fundamental problem with our planet as it stands today.

 

Reflected as a metaphor by the different species and their interactions in Mass Effect, no doubt. Is there some specific context within which we're discussing this, though?

[SwobyJ]

I don't think they were intended to be as such, but they certainly come off that way.

 

I'm very sure it was intended.

 

Strip away the creepy voice tone, and Leviathan(s) is a scared child telling you to go away, while it tries to play with its chemistry set.

[Glockwheeler]

One thing I cannot understand, regardless of how many times I watch the discussion between Shepard and the Leviathan, is how exactly the Catalyst defeated them. A new Reaper was built at the end of each harvest. With this in mind, how did Catalyst actually defeat the apex race without a massive fleet of Reapers? It mentions a massive army of "pawns", but these obviously were not Reapers and as such, how would they, assuming they were not as great a threat as the Reapers defeat a race capable of destroying Reapers in the first place. Since it acknowledges the fact that each Reaper has the ability to influence organic minds, could they have done so against the Leviathan as well? Am I missing something that others here could possibly explain? In addition, when Shepard questions the Leviathan about the Catalyst, it's reaction, specifically it's eye movement, gives me the impression that it isn't necessarily being completely honest in it's answer. Seems as time goes by, I find myself asking more questions than I find answers? My head hurts.

[KaiserShep]

One thing I cannot understand, regardless of how many times I watch the discussion between Shepard and the Leviathan, is how exactly the Catalyst defeated them. A new Reaper was built at the end of each harvest. With this in mind, how did Catalyst actually defeat the apex race without a massive fleet of Reapers? It mentions a massive army of "pawns", but these obviously were not Reapers and as such, how would they, assuming they were not as great a threat as the Reapers defeat a race capable of destroying Reapers in the first place. Since it acknowledges the fact that each Reaper has the ability to influence organic minds, could they have done so against the Leviathan as well? Am I missing something that others here could possibly explain? In addition, when Shepard questions the Leviathan about the Catalyst, it's reaction, specifically it's eye movement, gives me the impression that it isn't necessarily being completely honest in it's answer. Seems as time goes by, I find myself asking more questions than I find answers? My head hurts.

 

Thinking too deeply into the origin of the reaper cycles starts to make the entire concept collapse on itself, because there's just so many nagging questions. The thralls the Intelligence gathers were probably used to manufacture something in order to fight the Leviathan, and then create the process by which the survivors would be turned into the first reaper. But then there's the matter of the length of time it needed to gather the data to determine that this was somehow a viable plan in the first place, and then determining what to do with the thrall races or weapons or whatever they were. "Army of pawns" could be just about anything at that point. Maybe a race of machines like the geth. But then there's the lack of mass relays, so it makes me wonder how much of the galaxy this thing actually bothered to observe to come to its conclusion...

 

F*ck it. *shoots tube*

[Glockwheeler]

F*ck it. *shoots tube*

 

The tube, or the TV?

[KaiserShep]

Nah I like the TV. The power conduit, however...

[CaIIisto]

There was no mistake. You're missing the point. The detail is in the fine print on the Leviathans end. They're likely aware of where they screwed up. But they didn't screw up in the way you think they did.

 

In the fine print of the stipulation the Leviathans made in the Catalyst's programming and mandate: Prevent conflict between organics and synthetics. 

 

It's doing just that.

 

Well it's not really though is it.

 

Every cycle ends with the organics being wiped out by synthetics. I doubt the organics have gone quietly in any cycle. 

 

Plus, the Quarians and Geth would like a word - last time I checked, it was Shepard who put a stop to that conflict, whilst the Reapers were actively involved in nurturing it.....

[Bob from Accounting]

One of the serious failures of the ending is that there's nothing the player can do to support Synthetics. Every option condemns them.

 

Destroy and Refuse kill them, obviously. And Synthesis and Control basically support the Catalyst in that the Reapers/Synthesis are necessary in that Synthetics are all ultimately soulless organic-hating killbots destined to shoot everyone and can only be redeemed with some sort of massive fabric-of-life-altering outside influence guiding them.  

 

So yes, there's been plenty of really stupid stuff said about Synthetics on pretty much every side, but I can't really blame players as much as I'd like too.

[JamesFaith]

One thing I cannot understand, regardless of how many times I watch the discussion between Shepard and the Leviathan, is how exactly the Catalyst defeated them. A new Reaper was built at the end of each harvest. With this in mind, how did Catalyst actually defeat the apex race without a massive fleet of Reapers? It mentions a massive army of "pawns", but these obviously were not Reapers and as such, how would they, assuming they were not as great a threat as the Reapers defeat a race capable of destroying Reapers in the first place. Since it acknowledges the fact that each Reaper has the ability to influence organic minds, could they have done so against the Leviathan as well? Am I missing something that others here could possibly explain? 

 

I don't know about any more hints in game itself, but I guess it was combination of these three main factors how Catalyst won.

 

1. Moment of surprise enhanced by Leviathans arrogance - Catalyst can situated all his pawns on strategic places before Leviathans even realized that their own creation plan to betray them.

 

2. Leviathan were "too much developed" apex races - Leviathans were superior to other races like current army is superior to army of musketeers. They have none or minimum experiences with war against enemy with same level of technology and Catalyst had all their toys.

 

3. Mind-controlling - in ME3 it looks that mind-control is Leviathans main weapon. But if their standard war doctrine was built around mind-controlling, war against completely synthetic pawns would shatter their main strategy.

 

Also their ability to destroy Reaper like that one in Leviathan DLC probably isn't original ability but result of millions of years of development focused on one single thing - hiding and defense against Reapers. Today Leviathans would be technological very different from those destroyed by Catalyst.

 

Just my two cents.

[SporkFu]

I don't know about any more hints in game itself, but I guess it was combination of these three main factors how Catalyst won.

 

1. Moment of surprise enhanced by Leviathans arrogance - Catalyst can situated all his pawns on strategic places before Leviathans even realized that their own creation plan to betray them.

 

2. Leviathan were "too much developed" apex races - Leviathans were superior to other races like current army is superior to army of musketeers. They have none or minimum experiences with war against enemy with same level of technology and Catalyst had all their toys.

 

3. Mind-controlling - in ME3 it looks that mind-control is Leviathans main weapon. But if their standard war doctrine was built around mind-controlling, war against completely synthetic pawns would shatter their main strategy.

 

Also their ability to destroy Reaper like that one in Leviathan DLC probably isn't original ability but result of millions of years of development focused on one single thing - hiding and defense against Reapers. Today Leviathans would be technological very different from those destroyed by Catalyst.

 

Just my two cents.

I think the element of surprise played a big part in it. I dunno how exactly -- maybe deeper thinkers than me can figure it out, heh. Like maybe a 'sleeper agent' concept on a massive scale. 

[von uber]

Incidentally was it ever determined who built the three options and the decision chamber? If it was the crucible team, why didn't they inform shep? Or investigate what they actually did? Or create a big 'fire' button?
And if it was the catalyst, then.. That's a whole can of worms..

I'll take that as a no..
Sort of makes the ending even more problematic.

[SporkFu]

Actually Hackett said something about the crucible dispensing a massive amount of energy, but they didn't know how or in what form... and then later something about trying to direct the energy at the reapers alone. 

[von uber]

Yes I know, but the question is: who built the decision chamber and the controls, and if it was the crucible team why didn't shep know about it?

[Farangbaa]

Yes I know, but the question is: who built the decision chamber and the controls, and if it was the crucible team why didn't shep know about it?

 

The Reapers built it for the Catalyst.

 

Badumtss.

 

In all seriousness though. The Catalyst doesn't want to perpetuate the cycle. The Reapers aren't aware of the Catalyst. The Catalyst is aware of the crucible. Reapers built the Citadel.

 

Or the Leviathan built the Citadel and then Reapers added the decision chamber. Or the Leviathan sneakily had it added to it later, as the Catalyst doesn't seem to be aware of what's going on at the Citadel anyway.

 

Or the keepers built it for the Catalyst. Or the Catalyst's pawns built it.

 

Who designed the Crucible? The Catalyst of the Leviathan?

 

Lots of speculation for everyone!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

What if it's humans not the synthetics?

 

Ok how about this as a scenario, "Dark Knight Rises" style:

 

You can save the population of the rest of New York, if you're prepared to sacrifice and immediatelty incinerate every person in Long Island?

 

Back to the original question - are the synthetics less valuable that the humans? Why?

 

What if instead of "Synthetics" they were Humans but of a different skin color.

 

In the 21st century - let alone the 24th - this kind of reasoning is COMPLETLEY unacceptable..

 

But then maybe I'm getting old. 
 

I'm sure we (humantiy) has been here before with a concept of disposable people. It really didn't go well then either and thank goodness things progressed since.

 

Your statements have been terribly worded and formed. 

 

Poor Communication Kills.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

It's not about the worth of Synthetics vs Humans. It's about the worth of some people vs some other people.

That is, i think, a fundamental problem with our planet as it stands today.

 

I do too. 

 

Granted, I believe we have very different ideals on it as well.