1638 réponses à ce sujet

[RZIBARA]

After more analysis, I have determined that ME1 was really the only good game in the trilogy. ME2 and ME3 are both a mess

[AlanC9]

Actually, ME1 is terrible too.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

The whole concept of "war crimes" in the endings of ME3 never really occurred to me, because the outlandish circumstances don't really permit much room for judgment on whether or not something can be seen as a violation of accepted rules of war, at least not from the perspective of the people in-universe. Heck, in the one ending where Shepard can actually live to tell the tale, no one's going to try anyone in Space Hague over the loss of robots.

 

To be clear, this is actually what I meant. I don't think ME3 did a good job of conveying the idea that Shepard has committed some galactic atrocity.

 

To use the Geth as an example, yeah, we're told that we've essentially committed genocide. But merely being told "hey, the Geth died" isn't enough to do it. If the game really wants to convey the idea that I just made a huge sacrifice, then I should probably see the Geth/EDI blown to bits, not merely mentioned as a tidbit.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Actually, ME1 is terrible too.

 

^

 

Atrocious gameplay, wasn't a huge fan of the cast. Imo, the better aspects of ME1 were Noveria, Virmire, and the Finale. Therum, the Citadel, and Eden Prime were very weak.

[Obadiah]

After the uproar over the original ending, the devs definitely took a step WAY back from any serious depiction/discussion of the implications of the ending.

[Chashan]

To be clear, this is actually what I meant. I don't think ME3 did a good job of conveying the idea that Shepard has committed some galactic atrocity.

 

To use the Geth as an example, yeah, we're told that we've essentially committed genocide. But merely being told "hey, the Geth died" isn't enough to do it. If the game really wants to convey the idea that I just made a huge sacrifice, then I should probably see the Geth/EDI blown to bits, not merely mentioned as a tidbit.

 

This is why I cannot take the Finale's choices seriously in any way:

 

If the developers go out of their way to make this "sacrifice" such a thing, why in the world present it in such an elusive way? Or not present it at all, rather.

 

Still, similarly, if TIM's grand plan "was right after all", why not go show its cons too? Otherwise the struggle throughout the game with him is just made absurd and pointless. And if even the one entity that raises Green as an option is rather openly admitting that it had not worked before, why not show the downsides of that?

 

I can't help noticing that the game's narrative comes to a more coherent close without all of that. Maybe not too excitingly original then, but still.

[Iakus]

To be clear, this is actually what I meant. I don't think ME3 did a good job of conveying the idea that Shepard has committed some galactic atrocity.

 

To use the Geth as an example, yeah, we're told that we've essentially committed genocide. But merely being told "hey, the Geth died" isn't enough to do it. If the game really wants to convey the idea that I just made a huge sacrifice, then I should probably see the Geth/EDI blown to bits, not merely mentioned as a tidbit.

 

To me, the fact that the geth and EDI were essentially unperson-ed in the ending was as horrible as actually destroying them.  They were cast aside like they were garbage, despite the fact that their deaths ended the war.

 

Udina's death was given more weight.  That's just pathetic.

[Iakus]

"The Alliance lost eight cruisers: Shenyang, Emden, Jakarta, Cairo, Capetown, Seoul, Warsaw, Madrid.  And yes, I remember them all.  Everyone in the Fifth Fleet is a hero.  The Alliance owes them all medals.  The Council owes them a lot more than that.  And so do you"

 

Kinda my sentiments on teh geth and EDI in the Destroy ending.

[Iakus]

From the time I first heard it I thought that line from ME2 was powerful and moving - and appropriate completely to the amzing things that our service personnel do all around the world today to keep us safe.

 

However - I just can't in good conscious apply that logic to the Geth in Destroy.

 

Allow me to refactor the speech regarding the battle at the end of ME1, into terms that more reflect the end of ME3. 

 

"We lost the countries of North America and India. All of Europe and Australia as well. And yes, I remember them all."

Having played through the game to the best of my abilities and receiving that - especially without having chosen it... well.. that's a failure too far for me to stomach - especially to have actively CHOSEN. When the geth are killed in Destroy, most are not in battle... they are back on Rannoch... in my playthorugh many would have been inhabiting Quarian suits - helping them adapt. We don't even consider the concept of geth civilians. Or home cities. Except when we destroy an infected data center on Rannoch and consider them collateral damage. But it's OK because they were a lost cause. Apparently.

 

Yeah I don' tmean the exact speech, but the sentiment.

 

The geth and EDI were essentially stabbed in the back, sacrificed so everyone else could live.  They were the dog sicced on the bear.  And it goes totally unmentioned.  Hackett does some vague "We lost a lot of people"  But what was done to the synthetics is totally unmentioned.  Nobody remembers them, nobody cares.  That's a disgrace.  As bad as killing them in the first place, imo.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah I think not mentioning the total disappearance/destruction of the geth is kind of jarring if they were allies.

[Ryriena]

To me, the fact that the geth and EDI were essentially unperson-ed in the ending was as horrible as actually destroying them.  They were cast aside like they were garbage, despite the fact that their deaths ended the war.
 
Udina's death was given more weight.  That's just pathetic.

This is something, I agree with the fact people don't see that as a war crime just because they aren't humans is just mind boggling. They had feelings and looked up too you as a guide thats prof enough they had a soul. They understood right from wrong and were here but where cast aside like garbage like you said in the first place. I wanted to scream at the star brat for his stupid logic. Ugh so the ending dlc gave Udina death more weight than the Geth and Edi? Come on ugh

[Iakus]

This is something, I agree with the fact people don't see that as a war crime just because they aren't humans is just mind boggling. They had feelings and looked up too you as a guide thats prof enough they had a soul. They understood right from wrong and were here but where cast aside like garbage like you said in the first place. I wanted to scream at the star brat for his stupid logic. Ugh so the ending dlc gave Udina death more weight than the Geth and Edi? Come on ugh

 

I wasn't speaking of the ending giving Udina's death more weight so much as the game itself.  It gets mentioned more, speculated on more, than the geth and EDI.  ANd he was a conniving opportunistic politician!

 

I suppose if we want to look at the endings, I could compare the geth to the Grissom Academy kids.  Theey at least get Jack standing over their graves.

[Iakus]

 

When the shockwave of red space-magic fires it's ethnic cleansing. An energy wave that spreads accross (at least) the galaxy - exterminating all "life" matching it's parameters. The two are very different to me. I just can't find the nobility in that second scenario. 

 

Yeah I've brought that up more than once in the past.  It's one of the seriously unpleasant implications concerning these endings.  But I suppose It Would Be Rude to Say "Genocide"

 

Though in the case of the geth, it's hard to really define which, if any of them, are "civilians"  Most, if not all of them, were likely on the front lines, fighting alongside organics to stop the Reapers.  And all they get is red energy and unmarked graves for their troubles. 

[AlanC9]

Still, similarly, if TIM's grand plan "was right after all", why not go show its cons too? Otherwise the struggle throughout the game with him is just made absurd and pointless.

Absurd, sure. But not pointless. Unless you figure Control with TIM in charge would work out the same as Control with Sheoard in charge?

[AlanC9]

The geth and EDI were essentially stabbed in the back, sacrificed so everyone else could live.  They were the dog sicced on the bear.  And it goes totally unmentioned.  Hackett does some vague "We lost a lot of people"  But what was done to the synthetics is totally unmentioned.  Nobody remembers them, nobody cares.  That's a disgrace.  As bad as killing them in the first place, imo.

Good point that Ash was right all along.

What would a better Hackett speech have sounded like?

[Ryriena]

I wasn't speaking of the ending giving Udina's death more weight so much as the game itself.  It gets mentioned more, speculated on more, than the geth and EDI.  ANd he was a conniving opportunistic politician!
 
I suppose if we want to look at the endings, I could compare the geth to the Grissom Academy kids.  Theey at least get Jack standing over their graves.

If you send them to the front lines correct? I don't think children are ready yet for the effects of war, but I agree it does get mentioned more often than the Geth and EDI. And, I still think it totally out of character for him to pull something like that in the first place yeah he was opportunistic politician but he just did not seem the type too pull the coup.

[Chashan]

Absurd, sure. But not pointless. Unless you figure Control with TIM in charge would work out the same as Control with Sheoard in charge?

 

Far as I am concerned, neither would look much different when all is said and done, if we hypothetically allow that Mr Harper would have been as capable of taking the high voltage ride as the Commander (he was not due to invariably being dead at that point, and even if alive ultimately incapable of doing so, taking the Catalyst's word on that). The epilogue neither mentions nor shows that the Sovereign and Destroyer-class warships so heavily featured in the epilogue were disarmed or anything.

 

A Paragon-ish AI-construct may be somewhat more inclusive and "protective" of the galactic community with that arsenal at its command, yet given the alien-ish, aloof tone that this epilogue has I do not doubt it would make full use of that whenever it saw fit. Same goes for Renegade, which may in fact even more clearly be similar to what Harper would have had in mind, were he allowed that power and not reduced to an indoctrinated dupe - which, looking back, I would have appreciated more than him being wasted in a pointless copy/paste of Arterius's demise.

 

 

[Iakus]

Good point that Ash was right all along.

What would a better Hackett speech have sounded like?

 

Ash was always right.  It's the "cruel and unfortunate truth"

 

Specifically mentioning the geth and EDI.  Showing regret that the red beam killed them as well.  Calling on people to remember that they fought alongside organics to stop the Reapers, and are deserving of honor and respect.  That they proved that cooperation between organics and synthetics is possible.

[Iakus]

 

 

A Paragon-ish AI-construct may be somewhat more inclusive and "protective" of the galactic community with that arsenal at its command, yet given the alien-ish, aloof tone that this epilogue has I do not doubt it would make full use of that whenever it saw fit. Same goes for Renegade, which may in fact even more clearly be similar to what Harper would have had in mind, were he allowed that power and not reduced to an indoctrinated dupe - which, looking back, I would have appreciated more than him being wasted in a pointless copy/paste of Arterius's demise.

 

The tv show Revolution is giving a pretty good example of just how horrifying a "Paragon" AI can be as a ruler.