83 réponses à ce sujet

[Kislitsin]

Annomander wrote...

The atlas, ravager, scion double / triple hits are bugs, confirmed by Bioware.

Were the praetorian double-hits intentional?

[Alfonsedode]

Deerber wrote...

Can someone please provide a source for Scion's sacks giving the headshot bonus? I wasn't aware of that.

Tyhw test is  linked in the topic. if i read it correctlu, you need to hit a broken sac through the head to have a double hit.
I imagine it can go both way. But unbroken sacs gives no double hit.

[Alfonsedode]

Made a nice error correcting the topic yesterday , back to normal

ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...

this thread needs more numbers!

What kind of numbers ?

[Alfonsedode]

Deerber wrote...

Sentient Toaster wrote...

...so, depending on team setup (high-penetration firepower, little dependence on powers) it might actually be preferable to provoke the bubbles to get multiple hits?

For Praetorians no, as it can already be double hit without the bubble up and the required penetration is a lot lower - the one needed to double hit with the bubble up is pretty insane, actually. So, try to never force a praetorian bubble, as it only does bad things.

Yeah, oddly enough, you need to be able to go though the whole bubble model (3-4 m diameter) to access a second hit.

[Alfonsedode]

Annomander wrote...

alfonsedode wrote...

@annomander : I am getting a bit of your separate pawns model. But if the canopy separate armor pool is 100k and if shots on it damage both the (full 27k on plat) atlas armor pool and the canopy one ...

Yeah, the damage is doubled up to the "total" armour pool; once for the canopy hit and once for the machine.

The 100k armour for the canopy is the max damage it can sustain before breaking. This is so we can't break the canopy in multiplayer, as there is no pilot, so it would be an empty atlas shooting at us...

When you use "the damage is doubled up to the "total" armour pool" you mean that the same amount is applied to the total armor pool ? I

And just to be sure for the atlas, if you hit the small glass segment or the canopy frames A and B (image below from FreakOne's thread), you hit this first pawn, then the canopy's inside, then the atlas main model itself to get the triple hit ?

Modifié par alfonsedode, 12 février 2014 - 09:22 .

[Deerber]

alfonsedode wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Can someone please provide a source for Scion's sacks giving the headshot bonus? I wasn't aware of that.

Tyhw test is  linked in the topic. if i read it correctlu, you need to hit a broken sac through the head to have a double hit.
I imagine it can go both way. But unbroken sacs gives no double hit.

I wasn't talking about double hits, just plain old headshots. And there's no hint, in that thread, that Scion's sacks give the headshot bonus when hit. Actually, there is a hint of the opposite. And yet that is what I understand from your OP. I'd like a source on that, as it doesn't look right to me 

tyhw wrote...

Awesome stuff anno. 

Do you know anything about brutes? I've seen feneckus's one shot video with the javelin but that shouldn't be possible without a double hit. However, corlist and I tried it extensively and haven't seen any double hits...

Tyhw, I remember going through the math of that shot once and realizing that it was actually possible. When I showed you, you told me my math was off because ammo damage doesn't get multiplied by debuffs. So I checked in Peddro's formula and you were correct, according to that... Except that the formula was wrong. Peddro himself corrected it after being asked on that topic, much later. To my big surprise, I may add! So... I actually think that OHK is possible in theory too. I might be wrong of course, and we're still talking of a few hundreds points of damage more than the health, so... Maybe it could be worth it to check the math again?
That said, Brutes have always felt like there was a multiple hit glitch to me, since certain shots do just too much damage, so... It might be cool if Anno could shed some light here, of course!



That said, I have a question for everyone, about Scions, that I've noticed, more than once. If I break their sacks and then later hit the sack again, I often do no damage whatsoever. Most noticeable with high damage weapons, of course. It usually happens when I miss my headshot after the sac breaking shot, or when I shoot from the back. Am I imagining things?

Modifié par Deerber, 12 février 2014 - 11:33 .

[dudemacha]

you mean shooting the sac after it exploded....working as intended

[Alfonsedode]

[quote]Deerber wrote...

[quote]alfonsedode wrote...

[quote]Deerber wrote...

Can someone please provide a source for Scion's sacks giving the headshot bonus? I wasn't aware of that.[/quote]

Tyhw test is  linked in the topic. if i read it correctlu, you need to hit a broken sac through the head to have a double hit.
I imagine it can go both way. But unbroken sacs gives no double hit.

[/quote]

I wasn't talking about double hits, just plain old headshots. And there's no hint, in that thread, that Scion's sacks give the headshot bonus when hit. Actually, there is a hint of the opposite. And yet that is what I understand from your OP. I'd like a source on that, as it doesn't look right to me 

[/quote]
[/quote]
Oups , misread again (am i so old ???). I ll try to find smtg on it and put it out for now.
[quote]MGW7 wrote...

The shoulder sacs on scions provide headshot
bonus damage, but aren't actually a head, and deal extra damage when
destroyed, but killing with a shot to the sacs does not provide headshot
credit
[/quote]

I guess we can ask MGW7 about that [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Modifié par alfonsedode, 12 février 2014 - 12:55 .

[MGW7]

alfonsedode wrote...

MGW7 wrote...

The shoulder sacs on scions provide headshot
bonus damage, but aren't actually a head, and deal extra damage when
destroyed, but killing with a shot to the sacs does not provide headshot
credit

I guess we can ask MGW7 about that

I made a mistake, went back and checked,
No the scion's shoulder does not give a headshot bonus, It does provide a very large damage spike when broken though,

Going back to fix my error

[NuclearTech76]

tyhw wrote...

Annomander wrote...

On the topic of double / triple hits:

Phantoms, Banshees, Praetorians, Atlas, Scions and Ravagers all can be affected by "double hits" and in some cases, triple hits.

The atlas pawn is designed of 6 components, 4 of which are "destructible". The shoulder / groin plates are unimportant so ignore them. The remaining 3 components are the machine itself, the CENTRE canopy piece (the destructible one) and the smaller canopy sections; which are the same, only can't be destroyed (no code for it).

The destructible canopy and the small canopy sections are treated as pawns in their own right, despite being tied to the main Atlas Pawn. As the canopy sections are coded so they can "sustain damage" and are "destructible", they register damage versus their own armour pool (100k in MP) and the main atlas armour pool.

However, as they are considered "separate" and therefore resolve damage individually (to tally how much damage the canopy has sustained) you can hit them twice. Even a small amount of penetration will allow you to score double hits. Triple hits are ONLY achievable by striking the small canopy sections at the very edge; these register hits against themselves, the MAIN canopy (which must extend behind them) and the atlas itself. There are no garauntees of triple hits, but best results are obtained using shotguns (possible bug due to pellets?).

The same bug occurs with scions and ravagers. The destructible parts of the model count as pawns in their own right, but their sustained damage is linked to the main scion / ravager pawn, meaning penetration capable weapons carry damage over from the sac to the body for ravagers / scions as you hit 2 separate "pawns" which are classed as one. Ravager triple come from striking multiple sacs and the ravager model itself; possible only at specific angles.

Banshees, phantoms are praetorian "bubbles" essentially inflate the hit box and model "size" to the size of the visual effect of the shield; meaning hitting the shield will confer damage to the pawn. As the shield again is counted as a separate entity, shots can register twice; once against the body, once against the "shield".

However, LOTS of penetration is required as the bubble doesn't count as a "thin" object; the entire radius of the bubble leading to the actual enemy model counts as a solid object.

Due to the bubbles affecting the hit box of the enemy, I'm not entirely sure if this was fully intended or not, or just improper coding.

The atlas, ravager, scion double / triple hits are bugs, confirmed by Bioware. They even tried fixing the double hit bug for the atlas pawn; but that would involve having to implement an entirely new atlas pawn, with changes to its model and its coding.

Awesome stuff anno.

Do you know anything about brutes? I've seen feneckus's one shot video with the javelin but that shouldn't be possible without a double hit. However, corlist and I tried it extensively and haven't seen any double hits...

I've gotten it a few times shooting them from the side across the shoulders. Also got it once by shooting down at an angle that hits the head then body. 

[NuclearTech76]

Deerber wrote...

Sentient Toaster wrote...

...so, depending on team setup (high-penetration firepower, little dependence on powers) it might actually be preferable to provoke the bubbles to get multiple hits?

Arguably yes for Phantoms and Banshees. For Praetorians no, as it can already be double hit without the bubble up and the required penetration is a lot lower - the one needed to double hit with the bubble up is pretty insane, actually. So, try to never force a praetorian bubble, as it only does bad things.

Not necessarily always true. With the Raider or Piranha it can be advantageous to bring it up as it increases the hit box allowing more pellets to hit at range. Mostly you're correct though. 

[Tybo]

Deerber wrote...

Tyhw, I remember going through the math of that shot once and realizing that it was actually possible. When I showed you, you told me my math was off because ammo damage doesn't get multiplied by debuffs. So I checked in Peddro's formula and you were correct, according to that... Except that the formula was wrong. Peddro himself corrected it after being asked on that topic, much later. To my big surprise, I may add! So... I actually think that OHK is possible in theory too. I might be wrong of course, and we're still talking of a few hundreds points of damage more than the health, so... Maybe it could be worth it to check the math again?
That said, Brutes have always felt like there was a multiple hit glitch to me, since certain shots do just too much damage, so... It might be cool if Anno could shed some light here, of course!

Nice catch.  I didn't remember that conversation, just remembered doing the calculation and seeing that it wasn't possible without a double hit or breakoff...so I re checked the math.  Turns out it actually is possible to one shot a Gold Brute with a headshot and prox mine.

You need:
damage/debuff/damage on prox mine
rank 6 damage on hunter mode
weapon damage/headshot/weapon damage passives
Warp IV
Power Amp III
Vulnerability V
Targetting III

And obviously a headshot.  Must also avoid getting an armor hit on prox mine (Brutes armor can reduce the damage of powers depending on where they hit, iirc).  With rank 5 power damage on hunter mode and a power amp 4, you could use a weapon amp instead of a headshot amp on either the gear or weapon slot.

ETA:  Of course, in Feneckus's vid, he was using a sniper rail amp and gear, so...

Modifié par tyhw, 12 février 2014 - 07:24 .

[Cassandra Saturn]

Tyhw, I got general question, would a Targeting IV work well with Warp VI along with Warp powers for double combo of tech power and weapon addons?

[Deerber]

MGW7 wrote...

I made a mistake, went back and checked,
No the scion's shoulder does not give a headshot bonus, It does provide a very large damage spike when broken though,

Going back to fix my error

Okay, I thought that was weird. But yeah, the damage spike is so high that the sack is the place one should aim at first, pretty much always.

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Not necessarily always true. With the Raider or Piranha it can be advantageous to bring it up as it increases the hit box allowing more pellets to hit at range. Mostly you're correct though. 

Lol. Yeah, you're right of course, but... Let's say that usually you don't want to force that XD

tyhw wrote...

Nice catch.  I didn't remember that conversation, just remembered doing the calculation and seeing that it wasn't possible without a double hit or breakoff...so I re checked the math.  Turns out it actually is possible to one shot a Gold Brute with a headshot and prox mine.

You need:
damage/debuff/damage on prox mine
rank 6 damage on hunter mode
weapon damage/headshot/weapon damage passives
Warp IV
Power Amp III
Vulnerability V
Targetting III

And obviously a headshot.  Must also avoid getting an armor hit on prox mine (Brutes armor can reduce the damage of powers depending on where they hit, iirc).  With rank 5 power damage on hunter mode and a power amp 4, you could use a weapon amp instead of a headshot amp on either the gear or weapon slot.

ETA:  Of course, in Feneckus's vid, he was using a sniper rail amp and gear, so...

Nice to see we agree on the math then, that had been troubling me for some time back when I computed it 

And yeah, I do agree that all hints lean towards brutes offering double hits. I've always supported that claim... Can't really understand why the damage you do varies so greatly, otherwise. The point is that it doesn't always vary in a negative way, but in a very positive way sometimes... Which can only really be explained with double hits, to me.

[BridgeBurner]

Deerber wrote...

That said, Brutes have always felt like there was a multiple hit glitch to me, since certain shots do just too much damage, so... It might be cool if Anno could shed some light here, of course!

Brutes have no double hit spots, but damage is hilariously inconsistent with them. They have several damage reduction spots, as well as passive damage reduction while moving in a certain fashion. The claw arm confers a 99% damage reduction if I remember correctly (don't shoot the metal claw) and the metal plates all confer a damage reduction to various areas of the brutes model.... sometimes even after they are shot off.

But here's the thing:

Similarly to the typhoon, none of the damage reduction (bar the claw arm) functions as its supposed to.

Sometimes the brute takes full damage, sometimes not.

Sometimes the plates confer a damage reduction, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they don't confer DR when shot the first time, but begin applying their DR after they've been blown off...

Sometimes the brute's passive stance DR doesn't modify damage at all.

Sometimes the protruding spinal cord will grant headshot multipliers, sometimes it won't.

It seems the best place to shoot a brute, excepting the head, is it's ass...




Further clarification of the atlas double hits.

The atlas has 1 armour and shield pool, 27k roughly for both on gold (as an example)

The various parts (canopy, machine, canopy shards, ravager sacs, body, scion sacs) are considered separate objects which are referenced as part of the same pawn.

Weapons can only hit an object once (you can't double hit troopers by shooting through their arm into their body, for instance... because logic.... ) but as the different components are considered different objects, the game allows the same shot to hit every separate object in a line that it passes through.

In the case of some enemies, "multiple objects in a line" means multiple parts of the enemy model, all of which allocate their damage taken against the referenced pawn's armour / shield pool, in addition to tallying the damage versus any "break threshold" that they have.

The usual penetration damage losses are conferred for using weapon mods which impose a damage loss for penetrating objects, and weapons which by default lose no damage when penetrating objects will do full damage on multiple hits.

Modifié par Annomander, 12 février 2014 - 09:41 .

[Deerber]

Annomander wrote...

Deerber wrote...

That said, Brutes have always felt like there was a multiple hit glitch to me, since certain shots do just too much damage, so... It might be cool if Anno could shed some light here, of course!

Brutes have no double hit spots, but damage is hilariously inconsistent with them. They have several damage reduction spots, as well as passive damage reduction while moving in a certain fashion. The claw arm confers a 99% damage reduction if I remember correctly (don't shoot the metal claw) and the metal plates all confer a damage reduction to various areas of the brutes model.... sometimes even after they are shot off.

But here's the thing:

Similarly to the typhoon, none of the damage reduction (bar the claw arm) functions as its supposed to.

Sometimes the brute takes full damage, sometimes not.

Sometimes the plates confer a damage reduction, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they don't confer DR when shot the first time, but begin applying their DR after they've been blown off...

Sometimes the brute's passive stance DR doesn't modify damage at all.

Sometimes the protruding spinal cord will grant headshot multipliers, sometimes it won't.

It seems the best place to shoot a brute, excepting the head, is it's ass...

Lol at the bolded part... Haha Biower pls 

However, that would explain a lot of the inconsistency I get, I guess. And it's been my experience too, that ass-shots are the best. After headshots, of course.

So basically, the are like on host Phantoms... You never know how much damage you're gonna do unless very specific conditions are met (Phantom in cover, or Brute headshots). Which is reaaaaallly stupid. Biower pls. I guess the only reason why Brutes are not as annoying as on host Phantoms is that they are as much a threat as a defenseless herbivorous to a guided missile (bonus points for those who get the reference!).


This is some serious bad design anyway. Pretty annoying.

Thanks for sharing all this anyway! 

Modifié par Deerber, 12 février 2014 - 09:44 .

[ClydeInTheShell]

giggety.

[Alfonsedode]

Thx anno, i understand quickly but i need long explanations

[Alfonsedode]

I have searched a bit for damage spikes and ended up in a google page from Bsners (Mostly signed Leonard Lin).

I found those values :
- Scion : Bursting the left shoulder sac will deal (spike) 20% damage to the scion's max armor, which can be increased by debuffs. Datamining suggests that 15% of the scion's max armor worth of damage is needed to burst the sac.
- Atlas: one of the 5 weakpoints can be shot off to deal 7% (spike) of the atlas's max armor damage. Approximately 5% of the atlas's armor worth of damage is required to do so. Close to a double hit with an hard hitting weapon plus a stagger.
- Ravager, shooting each 4 sacs, will get the ravager to 1 armor bar ?

Does that seem correct ? No real value for the ravager ...

Modifié par alfonsedode, 15 février 2014 - 12:41 .

[BridgeBurner]

alfonsedode wrote...

I have searched a bit for damage spikes and ended up in a google page from Bsners (Mostly signed Leonard Lin).

I found those values :
- Scion : Bursting the left shoulder sac will deal (spike) 20% damage to the scion's max armor, which can be increased by debuffs. Datamining suggests that 15% of the scion's max armor worth of damage is needed to burst the sac.
- Atlas: one of the 5 weakpoints can be shot off to deal 7% (spike) of the atlas's max armor damage. Approximately 5% of the atlas's armor worth of damage is required to do so. Close to a double hit with an hard hitting weapon plus a stagger.
- Ravager, shooting each 4 sacs, will get the ravager to 1 armor bar ?

Does that seem correct ? No real value for the ravager ...

A little later, I'll just copy and paste the relevant stuff straight out the coalesced.

Here's the ravager stuff for now though:


(Category="Ravager", CategoryData=(



(StatName="SackDamageHealthPct",StatRange=(X=0.075f,Y=0.05f)),

This is the amount of damage the ravager sustains per sac burst. Preliminary testing showed that the X value is always used.



(StatName="SackBurstDamage",StatRange=(X=750.0f,Y=900.0f)),

This is the amount of damage each sac bursting inflicts on players. This affected by significant damage drop off; and the values here are only for point blank. Damage scales down / falls off further from the detonation.



(StatName="SackBurstRadius",StatRange=(X=300.0f,Y=300.0f)),

This is the max radius in centimeters that a ravager acid sac bursting will inflict damage on you.



(StatName="SackHealth",StatRange=(X=0.35f,Y=0.4f)),

This is the value in actual ARMOUR points, that the sac must sustain before it bursts. Ergo; a single shot will always deal enough damage to burst a sac.



(StatName="AimDelay",StatRange=(X=1.0f,Y=1.0f)),

This is the minimum time before the ravager will open fire. This does not affect its acccuracy or lock speed once it does open fire.



(StatName="MaxFireWaitTime",StatRange=(X=4.0f,Y=4.0f)),

This is the max time in seconds inbetween each ravager burst. Call it a "weapon cooldown".



(StatName="FireDelayTimeLow",StatRange=(X=1.0f,Y=1.0f)),

The AI uses this variable to determine how many frames it must wait before firing after acquiring a target. It uses a predetermined FC of 30, meaning at 60fps the ravager only delays for half as long before opening fire. This is the max value.



(StatName="FireDelayTimeHigh",StatRange=(X=0.75f,Y=0.75f)),

The AI uses this variable to determine how many frames it must wait
before firing after acquiring a target. It uses a predetermined FC of 30, meaning at 60fps the
ravager only delays for half as long before opening fire. This is the min value.



(StatName="NumSwarmersToSpawn",StatRange=(X=3.0f,Y=3.0f)),

SImple enough, this is how many swarmers the ravager can spawn.



(StatName="NumSwarmersInSack",StatRange=(X=3.0f,Y=3.0f)),

This is how many swarmers burst out of each sac when it is burst.



(StatName="MaxSwarmers",StatRange=(X=9.0f,Y=9.0f)),

This is the global cap on swarmers. Regardless of how many raavgers there are, you will never see more than 9 swarmers in play at once.



(StatName="SwarmerSpawnIntervalRangeLow",StatRange=(X=8.0f,Y=6.0f)),
(StatName="SwarmerSpawnIntervalRangeHigh",StatRange=(X=16.0f,Y=12.0f)),

Both the above variables dictate how regularly swarmers can be spawned. The Y value is the upper limit in both instances. Therefore, there is a 6-12 second delay between swarmer spawns, with the game deciding with weighted randomness how often to wait in between each spawn.


(StatName="MaxHealth",StatRange=(X=5400.0f,Y=8100.0f)),

This is the armour value for the ravager. The Y value is ALWAYS used.



(StatName="PowerThreshold_Standard",StatRange=(X=1000.0f,Y=1000.0f)),

This is how much force it takes to cause a force hit reaction from powers.



(StatName="PowerThreshold_Stagger",StatRange=(X=1200.0f,Y=1200.0f)),

This is how much force it takes to "Stagger" a ravager. This causes a ravager's attack to be interrupted and the ravager will "flinch" on screen if this threshold is met.



(StatName="PowerThreshold_Knockback",StatRange=(X=1500.0f,Y=1500.0f)),

This is how much force it needs to phyisically push a ravager back.



(StatName="Swarmer_MaxHealth",StatRange=(X=10.0f,Y=10.0f)),

This is the max health value of a swarmer.



(StatName="HitReactionChanceMultiplier",StatRange=(X=0.6f,Y=0.6f))))

This is what % chance (60% in this case) that the player ahs of staggering a ravager with weapon attacks. This gives player weapon and melee attacks a 60% chance of interrupting the ravager briefly. Not sure if there is an animation for this, or if the ravager just cancels what its doing.

Modifié par Annomander, 15 février 2014 - 01:12 .

[Alfonsedode]

Nice ! and it gives better idea of game mechanics at the same time. I see all values at the end are for gold and scale for other difficulties. The others too ?

[BridgeBurner]

alfonsedode wrote...

Nice ! and it gives better idea of game mechanics at the same time. I see all values at the end are for gold and scale for other difficulties. The others too ?

They all have separate values for each difficulty level defined in each section, but the ones I quoted were for gold.

[Koenig888]

This thread has clarified a few points for me. Thanks, guys.

[Scutshakes]

DeadeyeCYclops78 wrote...

lol u ppl get too involved with the numbers of this game

Understanding mechanics and info such as how different bonuses stack,double/triple hits on bosses, what works and what doesnt, and et cetera can be very important and can influence your gameplay. I've played since the multiplayer demo was released but only found this place much later. All the information I have learned from BSN has helped tremendously...all the numbers included.

Modifié par Scutshakes, 15 février 2014 - 02:12 .

[capn233]

Not all ammo damage is applied before weapon damage, Incendiary Ammo DOT (which is all of its damage) is applied after the shot damage.

Also, the Ingame Numerical tests - Centralized Compilation had basically everything you needed to know about mechanics.