16 réponses à ce sujet

[Stardusk]

 I may well be in the minority camp when I say this but Mass Effect 3's SP gameplay was far too easy and much of this had to tdo with the elimination of good features that were found in Mass Effect 2.
Limiting shields (or barriers or armour)  to only select enemies made the tactical use of squadmates and powers fairly irrevelant. In mass effect 2, squadmember choices mattered, depending on the mission and you paid a price (depending on your skill) for taking suboptimal combinations. Having an overload specialist made sense to take with you and CDs were reasonable as well or alternatively for armour related missions having a biotic squad might have been useful. Mass Effect made it such that these were by and large irrelevant, since gameplay itself seemed watered down and you could get by with virtually any combination available. 

For all the talk of more aggressive enemies, Mass Effect 3 Insanity did not punish Shepard's mistakes nearly enough. In Mass Effect 2, one or at most 2 mistakes meant death on Insanity but ME3 allowed for multiple mess-ups.

I sincerely hope that SP returns protection back to (virtually) all enemies and makes squad choice relevant and ups the intensity back to what it was on ME2 if not beyond.

A concerned Netizen.

[Sanunes]

I think you are in the minority wanting it to return to like ME2, for after ME2 there were more complaints about insanity not being tough enough there, for all you need is a proper squad and a couple of upgrades and ME2 insanity is a joke as well and not punishing enough for me.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^ME2 Insanity was never punishing, but it was and continues to be more engaging than ME3's explosion-fest where you can do just about anything you want and still trivialize the game. It's true as you say that you can take a proper squad with good equipment and dominate ME2, but the problem with ME3 is that you can dominate it without any adjustment to your equipment or tactics. ME2 Insanity was never really that hard, but good tactics and character building mades a big difference and was rewarding. Every class played very differently. In ME3, the difference between optimal and sub-optimal builds is so small that your performance is pretty much defined by your twitch skills, which isn't affected by your class or squad makeup, so you're pretty much playing the same game every PT.

I really hope BW brings some meaningful complexity back into ME4. I don't need the game to be particularly hard, I just want gameplay that awards some degree of creativity.

[Sanunes]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

^ME2 Insanity was never punishing, but it was and continues to be more engaging than ME3's explosion-fest where you can do just about anything you want and still trivialize the game. It's true as you say that you can take a proper squad with good equipment and dominate ME2, but the problem with ME3 is that you can dominate it without any adjustment to your equipment or tactics. ME2 Insanity was never really that hard, but good tactics and character building mades a big difference and was rewarding. Every class played very differently. In ME3, the difference between optimal and sub-optimal builds is so small that your performance is pretty much defined by your twitch skills, which isn't affected by your class or squad makeup, so you're pretty much playing the same game every PT.

I really hope BW brings some meaningful complexity back into ME4. I don't need the game to be particularly hard, I just want gameplay that awards some degree of creativity.

The problem is when making a game they have to consider more players then just us, for I wonder how many people played the game on Normal or less when only 4% of the people that completed the game did so on Insantiy.  So where should they put the work into design and implementation when only a small amount might want something more then what we do.

[cap and gown]

I have done insanity on both ME2 and ME3 and I prefer the ME3 approach. They basically said biotics are like wiffle balls in ME2. Throw, Shockwave, Pull, Singularity, Slam, all pointless until you strip. So a squadmate like Jack was worthless because she could not contribute to stripping. Powerful biotic, maybe, but Pull and Shockwave are powerless against a horde of armored husks. Why make an entire class of powers that are sub-par and then try to have the cutscenes show they are uber-powerful? Jack destroys three heavy mechs when you first meet her. Yeah, right.

These types of complaints always strike me as epeen. There are any number of ways you can challenge yourself should you so wish. Go for it.

[themikefest]

I have played insanity at least 8 times in ME3 and thought it was pretty easy.

I have played ME2 insanity twice finding it very challenging.

As someone mentioned there are ways in ME3 to make the game challenging or very difficult.

I did a playthrough in ME3 using a pistol at level one with no powers and the squad had level one weapons and no points put towards any powers. I did this on hardcore and have to say it was the hardest playthrough I've done.

[SNascimento]

I also prefered ME2 combat.

[Fortack]

Sanunes wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

*snip*

I really hope BW brings some meaningful complexity back into ME4. I don't need the game to be particularly hard, I just want gameplay that awards some degree of creativity.

The problem is when making a game they have to consider more players then just us, for I wonder how many people played the game on Normal or less when only 4% of the people that completed the game did so on Insantiy.  So where should they put the work into design and implementation when only a small amount might want something more then what we do.

Well that was the beauty and elegance of the ME2 solution. The added / enhanced enemy defense system was very easy to implement whilst adding more depth to powers, builds, weapons, squad selection and teamwork.

My only hope for the future is that the next ME game is not going to be sabotaged on purpose b/c it has to run on 20th century hardware. I would like larger maps, with (a lot) more enemies around first and foremost. ME3 Shepard (and his/her two buddies) fighting 3 Cannibals and a couple husks is really dull.

[Nitrocuban]

They should allow to make a char with custom powers (everything there is in SP and MP) after finishing the game once on Insanity and an even harder difficulty to let said custom character loose.
Custom chars can be OP as fuqué and Superinsanity can be almost unplayable, most people won't play it anyway but it would keep BSN busy for a like evar!

[Sanunes]

Fortack wrote...
Well that was the beauty and elegance of the ME2 solution. The added / enhanced enemy defense system was very easy to implement whilst adding more depth to powers, builds, weapons, squad selection and teamwork.

My only hope for the future is that the next ME game is not going to be sabotaged on purpose b/c it has to run on 20th century hardware. I would like larger maps, with (a lot) more enemies around first and foremost. ME3 Shepard (and his/her two buddies) fighting 3 Cannibals and a couple husks is really dull.

It might have been easy to implent, but at the same time I don't feel it added any real difficulty, it just forced you to ignore certain characters and became easier with weapon upgrades.  I had completely forgotten about Jack and the issues using her for its been so long since I played ME2, but I think that is a good example of why I don't consider ME2 hard unless you find a way to make it hard for yourself.

[AlexMBrennan]

The net effect of ME2's system was that everyone husk and their dog ended up immune to powers, making "interesting" power combinations impossible (e.g. lift and toss them off a skyscraper), thereby reducing combat to simple defence stripping.

Of course, ME3 took another step in the wrong direction by making all power combinations result in an "awesome" explosion. Ideally I'd like to see something like ME1 (or ME2 with bshieldsblockpowers disabled)

[Locutus_of_BORG]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The net effect of ME2's system was that everyone husk and their dog ended up immune to powers, making "interesting" power combinations impossible (e.g. lift and toss them off a skyscraper), thereby reducing combat to simple defence stripping.

Of course, ME3 took another step in the wrong direction by making all power combinations result in an "awesome" explosion. Ideally I'd like to see something like ME1 (or ME2 with bshieldsblockpowers disabled)

IIRC, ME2 was the only game in which it was possible to consistently zone-kill enemies via combo: in ME1, you'd just straight up launch them into space with 1 power; in ME3, every combo ends in a massive explosion so enemies would usually be dead by the time you launch them. The trouble with ME2 was that the game environments were small, so it wasn't always possible to do big combos. Also, only biotic combos existed.

Sanunes wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

*snip*

I really hope BW brings some meaningful complexity back into ME4. I don't need the game to be particularly hard, I just want gameplay that awards some degree of creativity.

The problem is when making a game they have to consider more players then just us, for I wonder how many people played the game on Normal or less when only 4% of the people that completed the game did so on Insantiy.  So where should they put the work into design and implementation when only a small amount might want something more then what we do.

None of what I said was specific to Insanity. ME2 was more rewarding than ME3 at every difficulty because all classes were different and every build you could do with them had clear strengths and weaknesses. All ME3 really did was improve player movement and game speed. If your point is about limited development effort, then really BW had no need to abolish ME2's basic combat mechanics, since that was already developed by the time it came to make ME3. Instead, BW totally scapped ME2's system and made a clunkier one that had less replayability that casual players would hardly touch anyway (because the stats showed they still played Soldiers and still only played at most 1-3 times).

[SwobyJ]

ME3's Insanity was too easy. That's all I can say.

[ItsFreakinJesus]

No. half of your squadmates were worthless in ME2 on Insanity until enemies were pretty much dead, which made things tedious. ME3 has it right. Reduce the effectiveness of biotic/tech explosions and we'll be good. ME3 struck a good balance between ME1's "everyone's invincible but biotic powers will get things out of your face in a pinch" and ME2's "not as invincible, but 80% of your powers will just tickle things until they're pretty much dead" mechanics.

[Guanxii]

The thing was it was a false choice though... you would have 12 squadmates and depending on your class, e.g. adept you would usually end up using the same handful of squadmates over and over again (e.g. Overload spammers) otherwise playing as an adept  for example was a chore... same to a varying extent with other classes. By the time you could use anything other than warp the target was pretty much already dead. There was also a lot of power repetion - just about all of the powers of 12 squadmates in ME2 are covered by 6 squadmates in ME3.

Gameplay is also about more than difficulity. If you want you could make ME3 insanity more challenging than ME2 by only using a Geth Pulse Rifle 1, no ammo powers, AR, TC or Marksman, or mods, or weapons damage passives, put nothing in fitness, take no option to get your shields back, don't level up your squadmates and turn their power usage off. None of that would make it any more fun.

I love all the gameplay possibilties associated with the power combos in ME3 to the extent that while combat might now feel like a breeze after mastering the mechanics I find utilizing power combos infinitely more satisfying than crouching behind a chest-high-wall blind firing while scrambling for thermal clips and then resorting to using heavy weapons out of frustration of having useless powers and weapons (due to restrictions).

I find it hard to play anything other than soldier or infiltrator in ME2 now as to do otherwise feels like a massive regression in gameplay - who wants to play a nerfed soldier restricted to a pistol or smg without ammo powers for over 10+ hours? I always thought the point of leveling up was that by the time you hit the level cap you want to feel like an Übermensch. Biotic and tech combos do arguably make gameplay too easy on high level difficulities and probably should be dialed back a notch but while many will cry about powercreep they make tech and biotic powers a genuine alternative to pew pew where they weren't before.

Edit: Maybe in Mass Effect 4 combat could be a mix between ME2 and ME3, e.g. level 1-30 (1-50 points) would play and feel like ME2 with an emphasis on gunplay with a heavy dependency on teammates (due to the tactial aspect of ME2 you cite - mostly due to lack of power combos as opposed to the over abundance of enemy protections) and give you access to heavy weapons because biotic and tech combos (biotic explosions, etc.) would only be possible with two level 4+ powers - so wouldn't be a big factor untill about halfway through or NG+. Level 31 to 60 (52-120 points) would start to feel like ME3 with a gradual shift in focus towards biotic and tech combos as the power gameplay possibilities increase exponentially. You could stop Heavy weapons from spawning once the player hits 31.

Modifié par Guanxii, 14 février 2014 - 12:57 .

[known_hero]

cap and gown wrote...

I have done insanity on both ME2 and ME3 and I prefer the ME3 approach. They basically said biotics are like wiffle balls in ME2. Throw, Shockwave, Pull, Singularity, Slam, all pointless until you strip. So a squadmate like Jack was worthless because she could not contribute to stripping. Powerful biotic, maybe, but Pull and Shockwave are powerless against a horde of armored husks. Why make an entire class of powers that are sub-par and then try to have the cutscenes show they are uber-powerful? Jack destroys three heavy mechs when you first meet her. Yeah, right.

These types of complaints always strike me as epeen. There are any number of ways you can challenge yourself should you so wish. Go for it.

Because being OP so early in the game is freaking boring. Shepard can mindlessly demolish everything in his path. Single player takes zero strategy to complete. Need help completing a mission? Just power spam. Power explosions are so unbalanced in SP, it's ridiculous. On top of that, the game only throws a few enemies at you and they all go down in a matter of seconds. Even the boss enemies go down easily. Speaking of boss enemies, where are they? They barely make an appearance in SP.

If you want to be OP, fine, play on Normal or Causal. Insanity should be reserved for the people who want a challenge. Why call a difficulty setting "Insanity" if it's going to be brain dead easy?

[Pressedcat]

known_hero wrote...

cap and gown wrote...

I have done insanity on both ME2 and ME3 and I prefer the ME3 approach. They basically said biotics are like wiffle balls in ME2. Throw, Shockwave, Pull, Singularity, Slam, all pointless until you strip. So a squadmate like Jack was worthless because she could not contribute to stripping. Powerful biotic, maybe, but Pull and Shockwave are powerless against a horde of armored husks. Why make an entire class of powers that are sub-par and then try to have the cutscenes show they are uber-powerful? Jack destroys three heavy mechs when you first meet her. Yeah, right.

These types of complaints always strike me as epeen. There are any number of ways you can challenge yourself should you so wish. Go for it.

Because being OP so early in the game is freaking boring. Shepard can mindlessly demolish everything in his path. Single player takes zero strategy to complete. Need help completing a mission? Just power spam. Power explosions are so unbalanced in SP, it's ridiculous. On top of that, the game only throws a few enemies at you and they all go down in a matter of seconds. Even the boss enemies go down easily. Speaking of boss enemies, where are they? They barely make an appearance in SP.

If you want to be OP, fine, play on Normal or Causal. Insanity should be reserved for the people who want a challenge. Why call a difficulty setting "Insanity" if it's going to be brain dead easy?

At least part of the cause of being 'OP' so early in the game is the fact that if playing as an imported character you will be level 30 from the outset. This gives you a massive benefit early on and allows you to immediately start causing full power biotic and tech explosions, steamrolling everything you face. Starting ME2 with fully levelled debuff powers (area effect overload/incinerate etc) would also make life pretty easys for certain characters. Admittedly not as easy as ME3, but still far easier than the max level 5 character you can play straight from import in ME2. Having played both imported and scratch built characters in ME3, I've found the game is markedly harder until you approach mid-levels. In that respect, I think that although keeping Shep's level from ME2 made sense storywise, it did no favours in the gameplay department.

Also, as others have pointed out, ME2's solution to increased difficulty was never ideal. Sticking protections on every opponent you faced did stop biotics from running rampant, but it also rendered certain NPC's, if not obsolete, then at least far less powerful or useful than their compatriotes.

That's not to say certain things in ME3 did not render the game too easy at times: the proliferation of ways to prime and detonate biotic (and later tech) explosions, coupled with the drastically variable cooldown times achievable due to the new weight mechanic, can turn Shepard into an unstoppable juggernaught of destruction.

It is possible to be incredibly OP in ME3, certainly more so than in ME2 (apart from a few combinations, eg soldier + mattock), but equally, if you steer away from the power weapons, 200% cooldown bonuses and constantly detonating explosions, there is still a decent challenge to be had.

Modifié par Pressedcat, 16 février 2014 - 12:02 .