52 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyingSquirrel]

cap and gown wrote...

Just for your info: the death order for the Hold the Line team is Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Samara, Legion, Thane, Zaeed, Grunt. Non-loyal team mates die before loyal ones. So if Grunt is your only non-loyal team mate then he will die first, and may end up as your only casualty. At which point you may ask why Krogan are so squishy.

Tali before Kasumi is arguably more illogical than anything to do with Mordin's place in the order. While Tali isn't a professional soldier, she's still seen more than her share of combat by the end of ME2, between serving with Shepard in both games and her run-ins with enemies like Saren's thugs, the mechs on Freedom's Progress, and the geth on Haestrom. Kasumi, as far as I can tell, relies on cloaking and knocking guards unconscious for her heists - it's unclear if she ever saw combat at all before joining the Normandy.

[shodiswe]

Necanor wrote...

"Humans, Salarians, Asari, all weak. Quarians, a little less so. Turians...well, you have to work the blade."

I think the Quarian part of that reasoning was that Quarians are always in their environment suits, it provides some protection compared to people wearing standard clothing.

The Quarians always seemed weak, but I guess a Quarian wearing a protective suit 24/7 would count as a second natural skin. Since you wont find a Quarian who isn't wearing one out of fear of dying horribly without it.
The Turians got a tough metalicskin which provides above average protection, it's not immune to knives or gunshots however.

One could make similar comparisons with Oysters or Geth Primes.

[Reorte]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

cap and gown wrote...

Just for your info: the death order for the Hold the Line team is Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Samara, Legion, Thane, Zaeed, Grunt. Non-loyal team mates die before loyal ones. So if Grunt is your only non-loyal team mate then he will die first, and may end up as your only casualty. At which point you may ask why Krogan are so squishy.

Tali before Kasumi is arguably more illogical than anything to do with Mordin's place in the order. While Tali isn't a professional soldier, she's still seen more than her share of combat by the end of ME2, between serving with Shepard in both games and her run-ins with enemies like Saren's thugs, the mechs on Freedom's Progress, and the geth on Haestrom. Kasumi, as far as I can tell, relies on cloaking and knocking guards unconscious for her heists - it's unclear if she ever saw combat at all before joining the Normandy.

I'd put Kasumi as the weakest. I'd also have Thane rather lower down the list, certainly below Garrus. He's a sneaky assassin, not a frontline soldier. Jacob should be higher up (one of the best soldiers according to TIM).

[dgcatanisiri]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

cap and gown wrote...

Just for your info: the death order for the Hold the Line team is Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Samara, Legion, Thane, Zaeed, Grunt. Non-loyal team mates die before loyal ones. So if Grunt is your only non-loyal team mate then he will die first, and may end up as your only casualty. At which point you may ask why Krogan are so squishy.

Tali before Kasumi is arguably more illogical than anything to do with Mordin's place in the order. While Tali isn't a professional soldier, she's still seen more than her share of combat by the end of ME2, between serving with Shepard in both games and her run-ins with enemies like Saren's thugs, the mechs on Freedom's Progress, and the geth on Haestrom. Kasumi, as far as I can tell, relies on cloaking and knocking guards unconscious for her heists - it's unclear if she ever saw combat at all before joining the Normandy.

True, but the Tactical Cloak gives Kasumi an advantage in going unseen and being able to get to a protected spot without being spotted, while with Tali, a suit rupture could cause more damage than the bullet that hits her - if her shields go down, even a graze could put her in a position where she's more and more vulnerable.

[RangerSG]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

cap and gown wrote...

Just for your info: the death order for the Hold the Line team is Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Samara, Legion, Thane, Zaeed, Grunt. Non-loyal team mates die before loyal ones. So if Grunt is your only non-loyal team mate then he will die first, and may end up as your only casualty. At which point you may ask why Krogan are so squishy.

Tali before Kasumi is arguably more illogical than anything to do with Mordin's place in the order. While Tali isn't a professional soldier, she's still seen more than her share of combat by the end of ME2, between serving with Shepard in both games and her run-ins with enemies like Saren's thugs, the mechs on Freedom's Progress, and the geth on Haestrom. Kasumi, as far as I can tell, relies on cloaking and knocking guards unconscious for her heists - it's unclear if she ever saw combat at all before joining the Normandy.

True, but the Tactical Cloak gives Kasumi an advantage in going unseen and being able to get to a protected spot without being spotted, while with Tali, a suit rupture could cause more damage than the bullet that hits her - if her shields go down, even a graze could put her in a position where she's more and more vulnerable.

Yes, but in HTL, Kasumi isn't going to be able to cloak without jeopardizing others. So it's not going to be as valuable. She really ought to be bottom of the list.

Also, I heard from one source that non-loyal Grunt is still more survivable than some loyals. Of course, if you have all those characters, it's likely you have more points than you'd need to keep everyone alive anyway. 

[cap and gown]

RangerSG wrote...

Also, I heard from one source that non-loyal Grunt is still more survivable than some loyals. Of course, if you have all those characters, it's likely you have more points than you'd need to keep everyone alive anyway. 

The HTL score is based on a average, not a total score. Having more party members can actually detract from their survivability if it lowers the average. For instance, in my current playthrough I had un-loyal Jacob as second fire team lead to ensure he would die and not drag down the average and get Mordin killed.

[RangerSG]

cap and gown wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Also, I heard from one source that non-loyal Grunt is still more survivable than some loyals. Of course, if you have all those characters, it's likely you have more points than you'd need to keep everyone alive anyway. 

The HTL score is based on a average, not a total score. Having more party members can actually detract from their survivability if it lowers the average. For instance, in my current playthrough I had un-loyal Jacob as second fire team lead to ensure he would die and not drag down the average and get Mordin killed.

Sure, but to have that low an average, you have to not do several loyalty missions. Which means you probably intentionally rushed to the Derelict Reaper so you'd kill off characters anyway. If you have a fully loyal team, there's no issue with HTL (and again, even a non-loyal Grunt will be high enough to not hurt the average).

I still normally send Mordin or Tali on escort. But really, I lost Legion to the Swarm once (thanks Miranda), sold him another time, and still haven't lost anyone on HTL. And that's usually taking Thane and Garrus into the final chamber so I concentrate on annoying TermiReaper.

[mybudgee]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Mordin is recruited more for his mind than his combat ability. Guys like grunt and zaeed are there for their guns. Mordin is their for his lab work

Precisely

[WNxPowder]

the math is

"Grunt/Zaeed/Garrus--3 points each, 4 points each IF LOYAL

Thane/Legion/Samara/Morinth/Jacob/Miranda----1 point each, 2 points IF LOYAL

Jack/Tali/Mordin/Kasumi---0 points each, 1 point IF LOYAL"-http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/944907-mass-effect-2/57299394

I think it makes sense, tier 1 are soldiers with heavy armor, Tier 2 is Lifetime of experience in combat/spec ops, but not much as tier 1

Tier 3, none of them have high heath, or heavy armor, Jack is barely wearing anything, Tali's suit is still a liability, Kasumi is built for stealth not assaults, and Mordin for me is more of a low heath, heavy hitter but is a scientist first not a soldier

Modifié par WNxPowder, 15 février 2014 - 07:02 .

[Reorte]

That's assuming that Jack serves no purpose whatsoever, if her biotics aren't any use for a fight what's the point in her?

wrt Tali and her suit, I doubt an injury would be any worse for her than anyone else straight away (although she's obviously not a heavy-hitter / defender anyway).

[shodiswe]

Reorte wrote...

That's assuming that Jack serves no purpose whatsoever, if her biotics aren't any use for a fight what's the point in her?

wrt Tali and her suit, I doubt an injury would be any worse for her than anyone else straight away (although she's obviously not a heavy-hitter / defender anyway).

Biotics can provide protection against the stun swarms for both Shepards team and the Fireteam. Jack, Samara and Miranda are therefor useful for the different teams in the ME2 collectors base mission.

I liked it that the mission put your whole team to work on the final mission, it made it feel bigger.
Priority Earth lacked this, it's one of the big letdowns.

[von uber]

I always used jack on the biotic field, storywise it makes sense to me. Plus you get the GA mention later.

[Reorte]

von uber wrote...

I always used jack on the biotic field, storywise it makes sense to me. Plus you get the GA mention later.

I usually use Samara but Jack makes just as much sense. However since her score is so low for hold the line and she has no other duties (e.g. Mordin in his lab, Tali the tech specialist) it makes me wonder just what overall role she's supposed to play for the entire mission.

[IoCaster]

RangerSG wrote...

Sure, but to have that low an average, you have to not do several loyalty missions.

Sorry, but that's not the case. If you take any two of Zaeed, Garrus or Grunt with you to kill the final boss you'll lose someone despite having everyone loyal. That's with the full roster (12 Squad members all loyal) and sending an escort back with the crew.

[RangerSG]

IoCaster wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Sure, but to have that low an average, you have to not do several loyalty missions.

Sorry, but that's not the case. If you take any two of Zaeed, Garrus or Grunt with you to kill the final boss you'll lose someone despite having everyone loyal. That's with the full roster (12 Squad members all loyal) and sending an escort back with the crew.

Never had it happen. I've lost characters in the suicide mission. But never on HTL.

[RangerSG]

Reorte wrote...

von uber wrote...

I always used jack on the biotic field, storywise it makes sense to me. Plus you get the GA mention later.

I usually use Samara but Jack makes just as much sense. However since her score is so low for hold the line and she has no other duties (e.g. Mordin in his lab, Tali the tech specialist) it makes me wonder just what overall role she's supposed to play for the entire mission.

I use Jack and Samara in equal measure. Tried Miranda once. Her mouth wrote a check her talent didn't cash.

[themikefest]

IoCaster wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Sure, but to have that low an average, you have to not do several loyalty missions.

Sorry, but that's not the case. If you take any two of Zaeed, Garrus or Grunt with you to kill the final boss you'll lose someone despite having everyone loyal. That's with the full roster (12 Squad members all loyal) and sending an escort back with the crew.

Really?. I had Miranda, Samara and Zaeed hold the line by themselves and they survived. I've even had a playthough with Zaeed(dead from swarm), Garrus(dead doing vent) and Grunt(dead as 2nd fireteam leader) and all the other squadmates loyal and survived holding the line.

[RangerSG]

themikefest wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Sure, but to have that low an average, you have to not do several loyalty missions.

Sorry, but that's not the case. If you take any two of Zaeed, Garrus or Grunt with you to kill the final boss you'll lose someone despite having everyone loyal. That's with the full roster (12 Squad members all loyal) and sending an escort back with the crew.

Really?. I had Miranda, Samara and Zaeed hold the line by themselves and they survived. I've even had a playthough with Zaeed(dead from swarm), Garrus(dead doing vent) and Grunt(dead as 2nd fireteam leader) and all the other squadmates loyal and survived holding the line.

I've had non-loyal Zaeed left to HTL (Didn't do his mission), Garrus and Thane with me, Tali sent back on escort, lost Legion due to Miranda sucking at the field, and still lost no one on HTL.

Modifié par RangerSG, 15 février 2014 - 05:06 .

[IoCaster]

themikefest wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Sure, but to have that low an average, you have to not do several loyalty missions.

Sorry, but that's not the case. If you take any two of Zaeed, Garrus or Grunt with you to kill the final boss you'll lose someone despite having everyone loyal. That's with the full roster (12 Squad members all loyal) and sending an escort back with the crew.

Really?. I had Miranda, Samara and Zaeed hold the line by themselves and they survived. I've even had a playthough with Zaeed(dead from swarm), Garrus(dead doing vent) and Grunt(dead as 2nd fireteam leader) and all the other squadmates loyal and survived holding the line.

Read the bolded part. The more people you have on the line the harder it is to keep your HTL score (needs to be 2.0 or better) up. You add all of the individual defense scores together and divide by the number of squad members left on the line to get the overall HTL score. Anything below 2.0 and you start losing people. Non-loyal crew die first then the list goes from Mordin on up. I don't believe that you can lose more than three squad members regardless of how low the score is.

[themikefest]

IoCaster wrote...

themikefest wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Sure, but to have that low an average, you have to not do several loyalty missions.

Sorry, but that's not the case. If you take any two of Zaeed, Garrus or Grunt with you to kill the final boss you'll lose someone despite having everyone loyal. That's with the full roster (12 Squad members all loyal) and sending an escort back with the crew.

Really?. I had Miranda, Samara and Zaeed hold the line by themselves and they survived. I've even had a playthough with Zaeed(dead from swarm), Garrus(dead doing vent) and Grunt(dead as 2nd fireteam leader) and all the other squadmates loyal and survived holding the line.

Read the bolded part. The more people you have on the line the harder it is to keep your HTL score (needs to be 2.0 or better) up. You add all of the individual defense scores together and divide by the number of squad members left on the line to get the overall HTL score. Anything below 2.0 and you start losing people. Non-loyal crew die first then the list goes from Mordin on up. I don't believe that you can lose more than three squad members regardless of how low the score is.

The way your post reads is that if any two of Grunt, Garrus and Zaeed is not holding the line someone will die. And with the two situations I mentioned that isn't the case.

[IoCaster]

themikefest wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

themikefest wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Sure, but to have that low an average, you have to not do several loyalty missions.

Sorry, but that's not the case. If you take any two of Zaeed, Garrus or Grunt with you to kill the final boss you'll lose someone despite having everyone loyal. That's with the full roster (12 Squad members all loyal) and sending an escort back with the crew.

Really?. I had Miranda, Samara and Zaeed hold the line by themselves and they survived. I've even had a playthough with Zaeed(dead from swarm), Garrus(dead doing vent) and Grunt(dead as 2nd fireteam leader) and all the other squadmates loyal and survived holding the line.

Read the bolded part. The more people you have on the line the harder it is to keep your HTL score (needs to be 2.0 or better) up. You add all of the individual defense scores together and divide by the number of squad members left on the line to get the overall HTL score. Anything below 2.0 and you start losing people. Non-loyal crew die first then the list goes from Mordin on up. I don't believe that you can lose more than three squad members regardless of how low the score is.

The way your post reads is that if any two of Grunt, Garrus and Zaeed is not holding the line someone will die. And with the two situations I mentioned that isn't the case.

Well I was responding to the assertion that you had to have non-loyal squad members for your HTL score to be low enough to have people die which is not correct. *shrug*

[KotorEffect3]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

From an RP standpoint it makes sense to have him escort the crew

Yes, one elderly doctor can easily escort dozens of wounded who may be unable to walk through enemy territory all by himself.

Oh look another smartass comment from you dripping with sarcasm.  Besides it makes perfect sense, he is former STG and he can still handle himself (blue suns that threatened him on omega).  When they get back to the Normandy the crew is going to need someone to look at them and Chakwas is too traumatized to be very effective so he can escort the crew back (the collectors are more focused on Shepard and the rest of the squad anyway) and then examine them.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 15 février 2014 - 11:13 .

[Gervaise]

I've never lost anyone on the Suicide Mission but they have always all been loyal. First run through I took Mordin with me. Second run through I'm pretty sure he was part of HTL as I sent Jacob back to escort the crew. I think the idea about taking an average must be the answer because I have never bothered with either Zaeed or Kasumi, so I reckon they must alter the parameters in some way.

First run through I hadn't used Mordin much up until the Collector Ship because I had assumed he would be weaker than other squad members. Then when the party initially split up, I got muddled over orders and ended up with him accompanying me, only to discover what I had been missing. He was a very effective fighter but he does rely less on brute force and more on his powers. However, it makes sense that if the squad were getting overwhelmed and it came down to toe to toe combat, he would be vulnerable. Salarians rely on their brains more than their brawn and this is what gives them the edge. When he was defending his clinic I imagine he relied on guerrilla tactics and used a few "dirty" tricks, along with a very good aim.

[Remix-General Aetius]

I always complete all loyalty missions before the suicide mission and I leave the Reaper IFF for last, then I just go on to do a couple anomaly missions to use up the invisible mission timer. But for some reason whenever I left Mordin hold the line with everyone else, he never survives so I just stick him with escorting the survivors from now on.

and MBrennan, Mordin says he's GETTING old in ME3, not has GOTTEN old. He's more or less middle-aged, and a fine doctor at that, if any of the survivors need to be treated back on the Normandy.

[Arcian]

cap and gown wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Mordin is old by Salarian standards I believe, so that could explain a good deal of it.

More likely is that Salarians rely on surprise and misdirection in battle, rather than brute force. Mordin comments on how he never seems like a threat until it is too late. Salarians are not meant for a stand up fight like HTL. They are like the Asari, relying on stealth, surprise, and guerilla tactics.

The asari rely on no such things. They rely on others doing all the work for them. When this fails, the asari are completely helpless.