Have beaten the game once on normal difficulty with a mage. I remember several times getting high from rage at some of the battles the game wanted me to deal with. And now the masochist in my head wants to tackle hard difficulty with the next best warden class down from mage, which is... I guess Dwarven rogue?
My stomach is churning just thinking about it. How am I going to get past that first ogre? That soldier better be good with the crossbow. And then being the warden alone in the Fade. Ugh. And then that Zevran battle. And enemy mages. Uh oh, the desire demon fight is coming back to me. And friendly fire is on, unlike DA2.
So, would you say go rogue or tank? And is my memory wrong, or does Morrigan not get a heal spell? Probably I didn't spend a point for her heal spell for roleplay reasons.
How bad is Hard Difficulty with a non-mage Warden?
Débuté par
b4ld5h3ph4rd
, févr. 13 2014 09:13
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#2
Posté 13 février 2014 - 09:19
mousestalker
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I have successfully soloed the game on nightmare with a rogue. It is definitely possible.
As for the ogre in the tower of Ishal, there is a video on Youtube on how to do it.
As for the ogre in the tower of Ishal, there is a video on Youtube on how to do it.
#3
Posté 13 février 2014 - 10:34
DarthGizka
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Most of the time you can't tell the difference between Normal, Hard and Nightmare, and if you are playing with a party (as opposed to soloing) any type of character will do.
That said, a sword & board warrior Champion/Templar or Champion/Reaver with good defence should provide a nice contrast to your mage, being able to lead from the front and to shrug off chain-overwhelms, grabs, rams, slams and whatnot. Being near indestructible, such a character is perfect for exploring hostile environments.
Tanks take longer to develop than other characters because all non-placebo defensive abilities require level 12 or higher, so don't be discouraged if you find it difficult to solo whole armies before that time. Look at Wynne's buffs, especially Heroic Defence/Offence and Glyph of Warding. You can benefit from those very early if you are so inclined.
What makes Hard and Nightmare more difficult in general is the sum of small things. The gratuitous resistances of ranked enemies are cranked up and the durations of things like stuns are even shorter; conversely, the duration of hostile effects on party members is increased. Your spells fail more often. Shatter chance on non ranked-critters is 100% on normal difficulty but much reduced on higher levels; on nightmare your own toons are no longer shatter-proof. Healing efficiency is artificially reduced, and mana/health potions in loot are supposed to become less frequent. There are other such small shifts, most of which are imperceptible on their own but the overall effect is to crank up the frustration level, especially in conjunction with the shoddy level design (gameplay-wise).
The second effect of increased difficulty level is random gratuitous ****wittery in special enemy/encounter scripts. For example, the script for the Anvil of the Void doubles Branka's rock fall damage on Nightmare but leaves Caridin's lava quake damage unchanged. So you never know beforehand what to expect during special fights.
That is why a high-defence, high-HP tank has a better chance to weather the changes than, say, a high-defence low-HP rogue. Not to mention that much (or even most) of the free über gear falls into the categories heavy/massive armour, longsword, and shield.
That said, a sword & board warrior Champion/Templar or Champion/Reaver with good defence should provide a nice contrast to your mage, being able to lead from the front and to shrug off chain-overwhelms, grabs, rams, slams and whatnot. Being near indestructible, such a character is perfect for exploring hostile environments.
Tanks take longer to develop than other characters because all non-placebo defensive abilities require level 12 or higher, so don't be discouraged if you find it difficult to solo whole armies before that time. Look at Wynne's buffs, especially Heroic Defence/Offence and Glyph of Warding. You can benefit from those very early if you are so inclined.
What makes Hard and Nightmare more difficult in general is the sum of small things. The gratuitous resistances of ranked enemies are cranked up and the durations of things like stuns are even shorter; conversely, the duration of hostile effects on party members is increased. Your spells fail more often. Shatter chance on non ranked-critters is 100% on normal difficulty but much reduced on higher levels; on nightmare your own toons are no longer shatter-proof. Healing efficiency is artificially reduced, and mana/health potions in loot are supposed to become less frequent. There are other such small shifts, most of which are imperceptible on their own but the overall effect is to crank up the frustration level, especially in conjunction with the shoddy level design (gameplay-wise).
The second effect of increased difficulty level is random gratuitous ****wittery in special enemy/encounter scripts. For example, the script for the Anvil of the Void doubles Branka's rock fall damage on Nightmare but leaves Caridin's lava quake damage unchanged. So you never know beforehand what to expect during special fights.
That is why a high-defence, high-HP tank has a better chance to weather the changes than, say, a high-defence low-HP rogue. Not to mention that much (or even most) of the free über gear falls into the categories heavy/massive armour, longsword, and shield.
She probably wouldn't get a healing spell if you auto-levelled her but who in their right mind uses auto-levelling unless they are doing an Ironman run of the game?And is my memory wrong, or does Morrigan not get a heal spell?
Modifié par DarthGizka, 13 février 2014 - 10:35 .
#4
Posté 13 février 2014 - 11:22
DarthGizka
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Seeing mousestalker's post, a couple of remarks are in order motivating my recommendation of a tank.
My current favourite character - Elethea - is a dual-wielding rogue, and if I wanted to take a stab at a nightmare solo run then I'd definitely try a rogue first.
However, adventuring with a party is much easier for a tank since they are born to be the titanium spear tip of an assault squad. If the Prima Donna (or Prim'Uomo) is a rogue then things get more awkward and very micro-intensive, to the point that you get tempted to leave the party parked somewhere simply to reduce the hassle.
A tank may suffer the same temptation but they have better survivability because of much higher HP and armour (think chain-overwhelms with the healer out of range); superior War Cry and Devour mean that you don't have to fear any group of enemies short of three or more elite ogres or more than one mage. A dozen enemies? Two dozen? Who cares. Just make sure that you make a nice pile of non-elite critters to power the next Devour heal. Of course, potions work just as well if you are so inclined, but the Reaver's Frightening Appearance makes the specialisation worth it all by itself.
Plus, tanks are easier to play which is an advantage if you jump from normal to nightmare difficulty, or making the switch from a character that has a completely different combat style.
Last but not least, Leliana and Zevran can make capable rogues, Wynne and Morrigan capable mages, Sten and Oghren perfect two-hander DPSers. Barkspawn and Shale are like secret über weapons in categories of their own. But the only way to get a capable tank (without respec tomes) is to play one yourself. Alistair is two to three levels behind a generic NPC tank and a further two to three levels with respect to a Warden tank. The only other tank you get - the 'secret companion' - is so pathetic that it defies description.
Having a capable, indestructible tank is a big advantage when you are heading into the unknown.
P.S.: don't forget to have Leliana swipe Vartag's Champion Shield when you get to Orzammar. Big boon before you get even better shields during the run-up to the endgame.
My current favourite character - Elethea - is a dual-wielding rogue, and if I wanted to take a stab at a nightmare solo run then I'd definitely try a rogue first.
However, adventuring with a party is much easier for a tank since they are born to be the titanium spear tip of an assault squad. If the Prima Donna (or Prim'Uomo) is a rogue then things get more awkward and very micro-intensive, to the point that you get tempted to leave the party parked somewhere simply to reduce the hassle.
A tank may suffer the same temptation but they have better survivability because of much higher HP and armour (think chain-overwhelms with the healer out of range); superior War Cry and Devour mean that you don't have to fear any group of enemies short of three or more elite ogres or more than one mage. A dozen enemies? Two dozen? Who cares. Just make sure that you make a nice pile of non-elite critters to power the next Devour heal. Of course, potions work just as well if you are so inclined, but the Reaver's Frightening Appearance makes the specialisation worth it all by itself.
Plus, tanks are easier to play which is an advantage if you jump from normal to nightmare difficulty, or making the switch from a character that has a completely different combat style.
Last but not least, Leliana and Zevran can make capable rogues, Wynne and Morrigan capable mages, Sten and Oghren perfect two-hander DPSers. Barkspawn and Shale are like secret über weapons in categories of their own. But the only way to get a capable tank (without respec tomes) is to play one yourself. Alistair is two to three levels behind a generic NPC tank and a further two to three levels with respect to a Warden tank. The only other tank you get - the 'secret companion' - is so pathetic that it defies description.
Having a capable, indestructible tank is a big advantage when you are heading into the unknown.
P.S.: don't forget to have Leliana swipe Vartag's Champion Shield when you get to Orzammar. Big boon before you get even better shields during the run-up to the endgame.
Modifié par DarthGizka, 13 février 2014 - 11:25 .
#5
Posté 13 février 2014 - 12:30
DarthGizka
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Adressing specific concerns:
In general, it is the job of your mages to eliminate all enemy mages pronto, or at the very least incapacitate them long enough to keep them from casting until they are taken out. At higher levels Leliana is awesome at taking out mages if there is line of sight. Curse of Mortality is less panic-inducing for a tank than for a rogue, and Crushing Prison is more of a nuisance than a threat. Barkspawn can overwhelm humanoids so that they cannot do anything while the rest of the party generously pours more damage on top.
Desire Demons are no different from other mages, except that they look better in cutscenes.
Things are slightly different at very low levels, i.e. during the Ostagar phase. Mages can already be very powerful at that time - think Cone of Cold plus Bomb plus Fist - but all of the other classes are definitely not. Fortunately you get a free rogue and free two-hander DPS for the Wilds mission to get you past Emissary Bridge without fuss, and the emissary in the Tower of Ishal isn't very difficult to take out if you lure him to his doom (instead of, say, letting him fireball you when you are lying in a pool of grease).
All of the fights there are very easy if you use proper tactics, with any party. But they can be harrowing or even impossible if you don't.
It can be beneficial to solo parts of the tutorial phase (origin, Ostagar, Lothering) when opportunity offers, to become intimately acquainted with the strengths and limits of the new Warden. It is more difficult to do that with a whole party, because there are so many more variables. The Wilds mission is perfect for that because that map is the first that is shared with all origins, meaning that you know the map intimately after a couple of playthroughs and you can concentrate fully on field-testing your new Warden.
My nightmare mage survived a grab long enough for Alistair to hurry over and shield-bash her out, but it was a close call. It is much easier and less dangerous for a tank to kite the ogre (armour, HP) while the rest of the party pelts the beast with ranged attacks. A Cousland girl could equip a bow and have Barkspawn do the kiting, since the ogre cannot grab a dog and Barkspawn can use normal health packs in addition to Mabari Crunch.How am I going to get past that first ogre?
A tank gets the best use out of the Burning Man and Golem forms; a mage almost none. The Burning Man form is particularly pathetic for a mage because you look like a burning melee monster but you can only plink away with your staff. A rogue may have the same high defence as a tank but will usually suck very hard in the strength department (although Lethality might change that a bit; don't know because none of my rogues had it at that time). Rogues lose quite a bit of luster if they cannot use Momentum and their special moves.And then being the warden alone in the Fade. Ugh.
Easiest with a capable tank. Just don't forget to bring Leliana - for the traps and for taking out the archers while the battle is raging in the central plain. This is one of the rare occasions where the tank's backstab immunity is mildly useful.And then that Zevran battle.
On normal difficulty a tank can keep any mage below boss/lieutenant stun-locked until dead if they can get within War Cry distance, but not on nightmare. Rogues have the same problem but compensate somewhat with higher DPS.And enemy mages.
In general, it is the job of your mages to eliminate all enemy mages pronto, or at the very least incapacitate them long enough to keep them from casting until they are taken out. At higher levels Leliana is awesome at taking out mages if there is line of sight. Curse of Mortality is less panic-inducing for a tank than for a rogue, and Crushing Prison is more of a nuisance than a threat. Barkspawn can overwhelm humanoids so that they cannot do anything while the rest of the party generously pours more damage on top.
Desire Demons are no different from other mages, except that they look better in cutscenes.
Things are slightly different at very low levels, i.e. during the Ostagar phase. Mages can already be very powerful at that time - think Cone of Cold plus Bomb plus Fist - but all of the other classes are definitely not. Fortunately you get a free rogue and free two-hander DPS for the Wilds mission to get you past Emissary Bridge without fuss, and the emissary in the Tower of Ishal isn't very difficult to take out if you lure him to his doom (instead of, say, letting him fireball you when you are lying in a pool of grease).
All of the fights there are very easy if you use proper tactics, with any party. But they can be harrowing or even impossible if you don't.
It can be beneficial to solo parts of the tutorial phase (origin, Ostagar, Lothering) when opportunity offers, to become intimately acquainted with the strengths and limits of the new Warden. It is more difficult to do that with a whole party, because there are so many more variables. The Wilds mission is perfect for that because that map is the first that is shared with all origins, meaning that you know the map intimately after a couple of playthroughs and you can concentrate fully on field-testing your new Warden.
Modifié par DarthGizka, 13 février 2014 - 08:22 .
#6
Posté 13 février 2014 - 07:35
cJohnOne
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Did someone mention that on the ogre you can hide behind the barrels? I don't remember if you can use a bow or not. You can use one mage and shoot the ogre from the barrels.
Or you can just turn the difficulty down for that one. I think that's what I do.
Or you can just turn the difficulty down for that one. I think that's what I do.
Modifié par cJohnOne, 13 février 2014 - 07:36 .
#7
Posté 13 février 2014 - 08:17
DarthGizka
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The barrels can become a death trap if the ogre remembers he can do the hurly thing.
I tried the barrels once with the hapless circle mage to keep him safe, but I think he could only use his staff from there (he doesn't have NOLS spells). If the ogre digs for a boulder you have to walk your toon out from behind the barrels manually; clicking on the ground doesn't work. That takes a bit of time and it may not be enough to get safely out of the AoE of the boulder.
I find it less hassle to kite the ogre in the big free arena, and the danger is fairly minimal if you keep the kiter's health topped up in case of a grab and other mishaps. The quartermaster sells a stack of 8 lesser health packs (twice). That should suffice for any stunts you may have on your mind and then some. If you're still apprehensive, consider the mighty claw trap. 100 damage and 15 s immobilisation (less for the ogre, of course) at a fairly low price. Did I mention that the quartermaster sells a lot of useful stuff?
There is little point in playing at higher difficulty and then turning it down at the only time it makes a difference (i.e. with elite and boss enemies).
This is different for a normal playthrough, when your mind is on adventuring and/or you are still learning the ropes. Going down from normal to easy for a boss fight is a perfectly good way to offset the shoddy game design. I'd go as far as recommending this not only for the first playthrough overall, but also for the first playthrough with a new class.
I tried the barrels once with the hapless circle mage to keep him safe, but I think he could only use his staff from there (he doesn't have NOLS spells). If the ogre digs for a boulder you have to walk your toon out from behind the barrels manually; clicking on the ground doesn't work. That takes a bit of time and it may not be enough to get safely out of the AoE of the boulder.
I find it less hassle to kite the ogre in the big free arena, and the danger is fairly minimal if you keep the kiter's health topped up in case of a grab and other mishaps. The quartermaster sells a stack of 8 lesser health packs (twice). That should suffice for any stunts you may have on your mind and then some. If you're still apprehensive, consider the mighty claw trap. 100 damage and 15 s immobilisation (less for the ogre, of course) at a fairly low price. Did I mention that the quartermaster sells a lot of useful stuff?
There is little point in playing at higher difficulty and then turning it down at the only time it makes a difference (i.e. with elite and boss enemies).
This is different for a normal playthrough, when your mind is on adventuring and/or you are still learning the ropes. Going down from normal to easy for a boss fight is a perfectly good way to offset the shoddy game design. I'd go as far as recommending this not only for the first playthrough overall, but also for the first playthrough with a new class.
#8
Posté 13 février 2014 - 08:39
Ferretinabun
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Easiest way to defeat the ogre: spread your party out and get them all to shoot him with bows/staves while the person he is chasing runs round and round in circles in the middle of the room. Piece of cake.
#9
Posté 13 février 2014 - 08:47
mousestalker
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Ferretinabun wrote...
Easiest way to defeat the ogre: spread your party out and get them all to shoot him with bows/staves while the person he is chasing runs round and round in circles in the middle of the room. Piece of cake.
Playing "Yakkety Sax" in the background whilst doing this is completely optional.
#11
Posté 13 février 2014 - 10:20
b4ld5h3ph4rd
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Thank you all! Long, in depth answers even to the little things I pointed out. Yes I do remember the kiting game, letting one character run around while the others pummel the ogre. It also worked in DA2 against a certain dwarf, and a rock spector, and golems. You've all got me leaning toward a sword and shield tank now, like Aveline. But I heard that Templar is meh because they are situational ( anti-mage ). I don't remember DAO having short animation instant kill mages, like the Saarabaas in DA2. Oh right, blood mages.
I'm not going to turn down the difficulty. I'm THAT much of a stubborn, prideful player who gets feelgood from beating what the game unfairly throws at me. It's delusional actually, because it's like I think the game is an actual person who is challenging me. Luckily, this is controlled with Risperdal, Effexor, and Trileptal.
So then, why do some people play rogue wardens? For even more challenge or because they are more amusing / risk / reward?
I'm not going to turn down the difficulty. I'm THAT much of a stubborn, prideful player who gets feelgood from beating what the game unfairly throws at me. It's delusional actually, because it's like I think the game is an actual person who is challenging me. Luckily, this is controlled with Risperdal, Effexor, and Trileptal.
So then, why do some people play rogue wardens? For even more challenge or because they are more amusing / risk / reward?
#12
Posté 13 février 2014 - 10:31
mousestalker
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The rogue entertains me more. You can burst damage very nicely with poison and bombs, you can pickpocket, open chests and sneak around. When I did my nightmare solo run I had already played every origin so I was very familiar with the game. With a rogue you can sneak past a group of mooks then attack them from the rear or side. Or you can avoid them completely. If you go ranger, you can get a summonable pet that can tank, crowd control or do extra damage.
#14
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Posté 13 février 2014 - 11:18
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DA:O is surprisingly easy without a mage Warden, even on the highest difficulty, the only real challenge is the Golem room in the Amgarrak DLC and we all know why that is.
Running completely without a mage is a significant challenge yes, but manageable aswell with proper build optimization and team synergy (it's basically jsut a matter of killing everything before they can deal enough damage to your party).
I would even say playing a warrior Warden is very entertaining, exactly bec ause you are not as stupendously OP as you are for example if using a Arcane Blood Mage Warrior Warden mage, which is pretty much impossible to lose. And if you add the Combat Mage from the Awakening DLC as specialization to that mix, you can solo the entire game no problems flat.
Running completely without a mage is a significant challenge yes, but manageable aswell with proper build optimization and team synergy (it's basically jsut a matter of killing everything before they can deal enough damage to your party).
I would even say playing a warrior Warden is very entertaining, exactly bec ause you are not as stupendously OP as you are for example if using a Arcane Blood Mage Warrior Warden mage, which is pretty much impossible to lose. And if you add the Combat Mage from the Awakening DLC as specialization to that mix, you can solo the entire game no problems flat.
#15
Posté 17 février 2014 - 03:20
b4ld5h3ph4rd
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Thanks guys. I will think hard to reconcile between a dependable sword and shield warden vs a fun rogue warden. I intend to play on hard difficulty and will probably try to get Morrigan and that whiney mage whose name I can't remember from the mage storyline so that I can have combos like Entropic Death and Storm of the Century available. Unless Wynne can help with Entropic Death, which my memory says she can't.
#16
Posté 17 février 2014 - 07:14
DarthGizka
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If memory serves then Morrigan has already started the hexes and the mortality line, plus she only needs one or two more points in frostiness to get Blizzard (depending on whether you gave her the mighty Cone or not).
Thus it would make sense to give Wynne the mana line and lightning up to Tempest. That way you get both SotC and Entropic Death quickest and without having to overspend on spell points. Plus, should someone walk out on you then you'd still have Wynne to clash mages for you. Plus plus, with her unique ability Wynne can boost her spell power way higher than Morrigan, higher even than a mage warden.
P.S.: nobody says you can't play a rogue after having played a warrior. However, developing a rogue requires more compromises, and rather tricky ones at that. If you fail to focus them properly then they can become gimped. On the other hand, making a good sword & board tank is nowhere near as tricky. And they are very satisfying from a power perspective, especially if you make them Champion/Reaver. My tank trounced Loghain so completely that the bugger did not even manage to raise his sword - he spent the entire 'duel' feared, stunned or on his ass.
P.P.S.: the duration of stuns etc. is shorter on higher difficulties, so it may not be possible to destroy him so completely and utterly.
Thus it would make sense to give Wynne the mana line and lightning up to Tempest. That way you get both SotC and Entropic Death quickest and without having to overspend on spell points. Plus, should someone walk out on you then you'd still have Wynne to clash mages for you. Plus plus, with her unique ability Wynne can boost her spell power way higher than Morrigan, higher even than a mage warden.
P.S.: nobody says you can't play a rogue after having played a warrior. However, developing a rogue requires more compromises, and rather tricky ones at that. If you fail to focus them properly then they can become gimped. On the other hand, making a good sword & board tank is nowhere near as tricky. And they are very satisfying from a power perspective, especially if you make them Champion/Reaver. My tank trounced Loghain so completely that the bugger did not even manage to raise his sword - he spent the entire 'duel' feared, stunned or on his ass.
P.P.S.: the duration of stuns etc. is shorter on higher difficulties, so it may not be possible to destroy him so completely and utterly.
Modifié par DarthGizka, 17 février 2014 - 07:30 .
#17
Posté 08 mars 2014 - 06:55
Cobra's_back
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This is pretty easy with a dual dagger rogue.
I finished and I'm almost finished with awakening both origin and awakening on hard mode with a two-handed warrior. I like templar and berserker for two-handed in Origin. The tank gets templar and champion. I use the mage as a deliberator and healer. The only reason for two Templars is because Orzammar is my last stop. Oghren usually already has Berserker and Champion by the time I get him. In origin I have a mage with haste. Awakening I get spirit warrior. Killing mages and anyone with a boulder first makes the combat so much faster. No one is down and everyone is working. The rogues can do some serious damage but not if they are dead or rooted. This is why I always have a Templar. The two handed will switch from greatsword to maul. If I have enemies with high armor use maul. Greatsword is faster, but mauls have better armor penetration and better str modifier. Love the maul for orges, golems, dragons and Reverants. The two-handed warrior did 52% of the kills.
When I'm a mage the game is mostly range for me. I just love setting up combos. The warrior is almost all up close and personal.
#18
Posté 08 mars 2014 - 07:57
Cobra's_back
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The Zev battle. First paralyze the mage and second Force Field Zev. Kill the Mage. She goes down fast. When the Force field goes down kill Zev. Dirty-fighting first so he doesn't use dirty fighting on you. It depends who you are using in the party. Don't let Big Al go down the center. Move to the right side. Take out the traps kill archers and move around the other side to get the rest of them.
The orge I run around him in circular pattern. First throw a bomb at him. Big Al bashes, I get one hit behind him. Move away run repeat. Also don't forget to use dirty fighting if he is not already stunned. Never frontal always behind. You have to be harder to grab. Watch the orge make his baby side steps. In the circular pattern he can't ram or throw boulders. If he looks like he is going to jump move. That is his stun/knockdown move. Pause to move all your team members. Everyone is pretty weak this early in the game. Let the guy with the crossbow or mage keep hitting at range. Move them if he looks interested in them.
#19
Posté 08 mars 2014 - 08:08
Cobra's_back
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Focus on dex if you are a DW rogue. Daggers are faster. Need red jenny seeker, rose thorn and The Felon's coat. I did this with assassin/duelist but you can also make it work with ranger/assassin. Ranger takes up more stamina to use.
Have Leliana open locks. Your rogue should focus on combat. Leliana is a good scout. I get four levels of Stealth, combat movement, coup de grace, dual weapon expert, whirlwind and momentum as fast as I can along with mark of death level 7. This is an easy build if you let someone else take on the lockpicking.
