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[ImaginaryMatter]

themikefest wrote...

Hackett should've looked over the battle to see if saving the Destiny Ascension could be saved or not over riding what Shepard says.

The Alliance losing ships while fighting Soveriegn is Hackett's fault. Why didn't he have the fleet fire at the reaper from behind minimizing the losses? Because he is an idiot.

The problem with questioning actions of the characters that are perceived to be stupid that isn't acknowledged by the game itself is that there would be no end to it. The entire plot would unravel if the characters actions were held up to some meta-game scrutiny. In Hackett's case the game says he is a good admiral and no other character questions that, so we have to assume that's the case.

Edit: I think all the ship/battle cutscenes exhibit lack of common sense by the people in charge, so maybe Hackett doesn't have a lot of competition.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 18 février 2014 - 01:06 .

[congokong]

Reorte wrote...

Getting as many friendly forces into the battle as soon as possible tactically makes sense. What are those geth ships that you've let blow the crap out the DA going to be doing whilst you're shooting at Sovereign? It's not really any different from all those fights in loads of games where you can defeat the enemy easily enough because the forces turn up a few at a time whilst the rest of them lurk around minding their own business until you've advanced a bit more.

I could debate this but it's already been discussed in this thread extensively.

[ImaginaryMatter]

congokong wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Getting as many friendly forces into the battle as soon as possible tactically makes sense. What are those geth ships that you've let blow the crap out the DA going to be doing whilst you're shooting at Sovereign? It's not really any different from all those fights in loads of games where you can defeat the enemy easily enough because the forces turn up a few at a time whilst the rest of them lurk around minding their own business until you've advanced a bit more.

I could debate this but it's already been discussed in this thread extensively.

In the cutscene you can clearly see the Alliance ships flying around the battle while the Citadel fleet is getting destroyed by the Geth. However, what confused me is that the Geth fleet seems to just disappear and they don't bother helping Sovereign.

This is all speculation but it seems like if the portion of the Citadel fleet that remains could hold the Geth for that long they wouldn't have been decimated. Perhaps, the portion of the fleet that was sent elsewhere managed to come back through the Relay to fight the Geth, as Udina mentions that a large bulk of the Citadel fleet was destroyed when only a small portion of the fleet was actually at the Citadel (the game and Codex both state that the rest of the fleet was sent to other Relays in Citadel space.)

[congokong]

When you think of it logically it comes down to this.

Does saving the council jeopardize stopping Sovereign at all?

Answer: Yes it does. (Ex: Anderson, Udina, and a squadmate all state this.) How much it jeopardizes the primary goal of stopping the reapers' return is up for debate but the fact is you could not seriously afford to jeopardize saving the galaxy for one ship regardless of who was on it.

[Reorte]

congokong wrote...

When you think of it logically it comes down to this.

Does saving the council jeopardize stopping Sovereign at all?

Answer: Yes it does. (Ex: Anderson, Udina, and a squadmate all state this.) How much it jeopardizes the primary goal of stopping the reapers' return is up for debate but the fact is you could not seriously afford to jeopardize saving the galaxy for one ship regardless of who was on it.

The game says it does. Rationally it should do the opposite. I'll just say "screw you" to the writers if they penalise me for acting rationally instead of meta-gaming or second-guessing their intentions over what's actually presented, and walk away feeling the game wasn't quite as good as it could've been.

[BurningBlood]

congokong wrote...

"The cruel and unfortunate truth is that while the reapers focus on earth, we can regroup." Hmmm. Using earth as a distraction. Reminds me of the Ascension scenario.

"The cruel and unfortunate truth is that while the bear focuses on our dog, we can regroup."
Fixed.  Ash was right all along.

Um... not sure what this has to do with a Samara romance though.

Modifié par BurningBlood, 19 février 2014 - 03:29 .

[congokong]

BurningBlood wrote...

congokong wrote...

"The cruel and unfortunate truth is that while the reapers focus on earth, we can regroup." Hmmm. Using earth as a distraction. Reminds me of the Ascension scenario.

"The cruel and unfortunate truth is that while the bear focuses on our dog, we can regroup."
Fixed.  Ash was right all along.

Um... not sure what this has to do with a Samara romance though.

Yup, Ashley was correct. I've heard fans note that before. No matter how much humans have done for the alien races, the aliens still turn their backs on them because in a way they see the humans as dogs defending them from the bear. This happens with humans taking a tremendous gamble and sacrifice to save them from Sovereign/geth ships in ME1 and the council's quick 180 on the reaper threat, their indifference regarding the human colonies being abducted in ME2, and again with the reapers ravaging earth in ME3. It makes me glad in a way that my Shepard is practical and played it safe by concentrating on Sovereign in ME1 even if there was a lot of collateral damage.

And yeah, this thread has gotten very off-track. If it stuck with the Samara discussion it probably would've ended 2 pages ago.

[Barquiel]

congokong wrote...

BurningBlood wrote...

congokong wrote...

"The cruel and unfortunate truth is that while the reapers focus on earth, we can regroup." Hmmm. Using earth as a distraction. Reminds me of the Ascension scenario.

"The cruel and unfortunate truth is that while the bear focuses on our dog, we can regroup."
Fixed.  Ash was right all along.

Um... not sure what this has to do with a Samara romance though.

Yup, Ashley was correct. I've heard fans note that before. No matter how much humans have done for the alien races, the aliens still turn their backs on them because in a way they see the humans as dogs defending them from the bear. This happens with humans taking a tremendous gamble and sacrifice to save them from Sovereign/geth ships in ME1 and the council's quick 180 on the reaper threat, their indifference regarding the human colonies being abducted in ME2, and again with the reapers ravaging earth in ME3. It makes me glad in a way that my Shepard is practical and played it safe by concentrating on Sovereign in ME1 even if there was a lot of collateral damage.

And yeah, this thread has gotten very off-track. If it stuck with the Samara discussion it probably would've ended 2 pages ago.

And the council was also right. What exactly do you expect them to do? They refused to send aid to Earth because any counter-offensive at the beginning of the war would have concluded with a disastrous defeat. And even if the council was to say "All asari/salarian/turian forces, go die on Earth!" the matriarchs/dalatrass/primarch would have simply overruled them...not to mention that had roles been reversed and Thessia or Sur'kesh were invaded first the alliance wouldn't have responded any different. The Asari helped to evacuate some human colonies while the turians had their own problems on Palavan, but sending the united fleets of the Alliance, Turians, Asari and everyone else to Earth never made any sense strategically, at least not until the citadel was moved there.

And if you saved the Destiny Ascension, there are news reports in ME2 that the council has dispatched the STG to investigate the colony attacks. They're of course not successful (...or we wouldn't have a story).

Modifié par Barquiel, 19 février 2014 - 10:36 .

[congokong]

Barquiel wrote...

And the council was also right. What exactly do you expect them to do? They refused to send aid to Earth because any counter-offensive at the beginning of the war would have concluded with a disastrous defeat. And even if the council was to say "All asari/salarian/turian forces, go die on Earth!" the matriarchs/dalatrass/primarch would have simply overruled them...not to mention that had roles been reversed and Thessia or Sur'kesh were invaded first the alliance wouldn't have responded any different. The Asari helped to evacuate some human colonies while the turians had their own problems on Palavan, but sending the united fleets of the Alliance, Turians, Asari and everyone else to Earth never made any sense strategically, at least not until the citadel was moved there.

And if you saved the Destiny Ascension, there are news reports in ME2 that the council has dispatched the STG to investigate the colony attacks. They're of course not successful (...or we wouldn't have a story).

Sigh. Do you not remember ME3's dialogue.

Shepard: "I don't expect you to follow me without a plan."
Liara: "Councilors, we have that plan. A blueprint built by the protheans in their war against the reapers."

The races refuse to help with the crucible leaving the Alliance to do it alone until they get desperate enough to throw in their support. That's the whole point of the story. The Alliance is trying to build alliances while the other races look out for themselves and want favors to get their support.

And the council didn't have to do a 180 on the reaper threat and call Shepard mentally ill.

Modifié par congokong, 19 février 2014 - 03:51 .

[Xilizhra]

SAMARA.

A paragon wouldn't go anywhere near that murderous religious nut job; Bioware may have been aiming for "space paladin" but if they did they failed epically.

But there are so many murderous nutjobs aboard ship already, Samara doesn't stand out that much. In any case, I love redemption arcs.

I love Liara more and I don't know if I can really stand not having my LI be aboard ship... but the Samara romance's final culmination in Citadel is actually amazing. You finally get to have her facade crack and her actual true self emerge for you; it's wonderful.