8640 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

Firstly, it's been nine hundred years; practices will go in and out of favor. Second, the Tevinter Circle system predates the Chantry; it wasn't invented as a way of imprisoning mages, only reengineered to fit that. As for cooperation, common foes (namely, qunari and darkspawn) can ease a lot of bad blood; that doesn't mean peacetime will have good relations, and the numerous Annulments over the years show this starkly.

the chantry and templars of orlais are 840 years old.  We are in 40 years into the 9th age, it won't be 900 years until the dragon age has ended.  The system on which the circle and templar system is based was created in 160 ancient.  1000 years.

 

All references we have to the past are of the system working and the fact that the mages themselves talk about things being even good until recently can't be dismissed just because it doesn't agree with your demagoguery beliefs and message.  The system wouldn't have worked as well as it has with as few issues as it has had if things were as bad as has been recently presented.  I don't say this as anti mage, I make the same statements to them when they are talking like asshats because they don't like that the facts and all relative presentation of information doesn't agree with the particular message they want.

 

You can scream at the rain all you want for it being wet, that isn't going to change it, and neither is your desire to have the circles painted negatively no matter the facts.

[Master Warder Z_]

Actually, there is: it was after the Harvester project.

 

 

 

He didn't lead the templars anywhere; the templars were completely ignoring the murders. And given how crazy Meredith is, collective punishment of the Circle would be practically a certainty.

 

Where is it exactly?

 

The only codex entry letter that is granted from "all that remains" is as followed.

 

My dear friend,

 

I have obtained the books you requested. I'll leave them at our usual hiding spot. Please collect them as soon as possible. I would hate to see them in the wrong hands!

 

Your last letter was fascinating! You have proven me wrong, once again, by doing the impossible. I shouldn't have doubted your resolve, and I hope you will keep me apprised of further progress.

 

Your friend and colleague, 

O

 

http://dragonage.wik...from_the_Circle

 

Would love to see where you dig up another letter from Qeutin to Orsino to state he magically cut his ties to him.

 

and given the exchange between him and Bethany if she is a circle mage present during the final battle against him...He apologizes stating he didn't realize the extent of his madness until it was too late? It was obvious he was around until pretty darn late in the process, more then far enough for him to realize that Quentin was plotting evil , and needed to be stopped.

 

Its corruption, you can twist and shift like i said but its his weakness and indecisiveness, The mere fact he would subvert others to that madman's will just ultimately proves what a coward and fool the man was. He was corrupt.

 

They were ignoring he murders mainly because lack of evidence and results, Orsino could have assisted in that and the fact he held back was because as i said before, all the evidence would point to him as the single source of working with that nut. He was a coward. Meredith may have been strict but before the idol wasn't mad, i doubt she would punish them all out of SPITE. 

[dragonflight288]

I agree on the latter, but I don't think the Circle? Was Quentin a part of the circle? (I'm not using him as an example, I just can't remember)

 

Not sure if this has been answered or not, but no, he was not part of Kirkwall's Circle and never was. Gaspard DuPuis suggests he was from Starkhaven's Circle, and escaped after the death of his wife. 

 

I figured the templars didn't look for him since Starkhaven's circle had a fire so they transported all the remaining mages to Kirkwall and the phylacteries of the Starkhaven mages were destroyed in the fire. 

[Divine Justinia V]

Not sure if this has been answered or not, but no, he was not part of Kirkwall's Circle and never was. Gaspard DuPuis suggests he was from Starkhaven's Circle, and escaped after the death of his wife. 

 

I figured the templars didn't look for him since Starkhaven's circle had a fire so they transported all the remaining mages to Kirkwall and the phylacteries of the Starkhaven mages were destroyed in the fire. 

Thanks!
This helps a lot.

[Xilizhra]

the chantry and templars of orlais are 840 years old.  We are in 40 years into the 9th age, it won't be 900 years until the dragon age has ended.  The system on which the circle and templar system is based was created in 160 ancient.  1000 years.

 

All references we have to the past are of the system working and the fact that the mages themselves talk about things being even good until recently can't be dismissed just because it doesn't agree with your demagoguery beliefs and message.  The system wouldn't have worked as well as it has with as few issues as it has had if things were as bad as has been recently presented.  I don't say this as anti mage, I make the same statements to them when they are talking like asshats because they don't like that the facts and all relative presentation of information doesn't agree with the particular message they want.

 

You can scream at the rain all you want for it being wet, that isn't going to change it, and neither is your desire to have the circles painted negatively no matter the facts.

"Circle and templar system?" No, that's blatantly wrong; the templars were a much later addition, only added with the standing down of the Inquisition.

 

And there have been many, many issues; horrible systems can go on for very long periods of time out of fear, or contentment for those in positions of comfort, or just because no one knows any other option. In any case, as I said prior, if so many mages were all right for so long with things like Tranquility and Annulment, then that moral failure is on them as well as the templars.

 

Would love to see where you dig up another letter from Qeutin to Orsino to state he magically cut his ties to him.

The dialogue at the endgame where, when speaking about the Harvester, he says that Quentin's research was too evil and too dangerous, so Orsino shelved it. He clearly can't be talking about Frankenmom, because all that created was a barely mobile, not-technically-undead-yet stictched form, and didn't involve calling a Fade spirit in to mutate the body, like how Harvesters are created. Thus, it could only have been referring to the Harvester... and that obviously came from before the Kirkwall killings, as Quentin said he fell into deep depression after his wife died, until he completed his project, which is why he was useless to Gascard.

 

They were ignoring he murders mainly because lack of evidence and results, Orsino could have assisted in that and the fact he held back was because as i said before, all the evidence would point to him as the single source of working with that nut. He was a coward. Meredith may have been strict but before the idol wasn't mad, i doubt she would punish them all out of SPITE.

They were ignoring them because they didn't see it as their jurisdiction. Also, Meredith wouldn't see it as spite, but as caution, because she was always mentally unstable.

[Steelcan]

I am reminded of the wise words of MassivelyEffective, "there is no single issue in the DAverse that cannot solved by killing elves"

 

I suggest we test this hypothesis

[Xilizhra]

I am reminded of the wise words of MassivelyEffective, "there is no single issue in the DAverse that cannot solved by killing elves"

 

I suggest we test this hypothesis

You can try. But we don't die easily.

[dragonflight288]

Thanks!
This helps a lot.

 

No problem. 

 

Still, him being free really calls into question the competency of the templars. Women are being murdered, with a very set pattern. White lilies are sent to each one. Also, Hawke helps a templar investigate a missing mage who was killed by Quentin. At the foundry, we run into demons that had been summoned, a bag full of human remains, and see a man flee the scene, and Hawke may even have the future captain of the guard in his party at the time.

 

The response? Meredith and Aveline both dismiss the evidence and say the murders are unconnected, at least until Emerick is killed, and only then the investigation is taken seriously, and is only solved when Hawke becomes desperate to find his/her mother. 

 

This also calls into question the competency of the City Guard under Aveline as well. 

[Rainbow Wyvern]

I am reminded of the wise words of MassivelyEffective, "there is no single issue in the DAverse that cannot solved by killing elves"

 

I suggest we test this hypothesis

I suggest we don't test this hypothesis.

[Steelcan]

You can try. But we don't die easily.

 

Lol, Merrill's clan begs to disagree, so does the population of Arlathan and the Dales, and that clan the werewolves can off, and all the dalish who got wrecked by the darkspawn (I mean seriously they were useless)

[dragonflight288]

I suggest we don't test this hypothesis.

 

I agree. It can be applies to any group. 

 

"All problems will be solved by killing all templars." or "All problems will be solved by killing all mages."

 

Simple answer...no they won't. 

[Divine Justinia V]

 

No problem. 

 

Still, him being free really calls into question the competency of the templars. Women are being murdered, with a very set pattern. White lilies are sent to each one. Also, Hawke helps a templar investigate a missing mage who was killed by Quentin. At the foundry, we run into demons that had been summoned, a bag full of human remains, and see a man flee the scene, and Hawke may even have the future captain of the guard in his party at the time.

 

The response? Meredith and Aveline both dismiss the evidence and say the murders are unconnected, at least until Emerick is killed, and only then the investigation is taken seriously, and is only solved when Hawke becomes desperate to find his/her mother. 

 

This also calls into question the competency of the City Guard under Aveline as well. 

I 800000% agree with you. I think Meredith and Aveline were both largely to blame for that entire thing. I'm more annoyed with Aveline for waving it off, but I'm more confused by Meredith totally ignoring the big, red flashing lights that were blinking "Blood Mage"

[Divine Justinia V]

Lol, Merrill's clan begs to disagree, so does the population of Arlathan and the Dales, and that clan the werewolves can off, and all the dalish who got wrecked by the darkspawn (I mean seriously they were useless)

Maybe we should stop with the Elf belitting before it starts an entire new debate?

[Xilizhra]

Lol, Merrill's clan begs to disagree, so does the population of Arlathan and the Dales, and that clan the werewolves can off, and all the dalish who got wrecked by the darkspawn (I mean seriously they were useless)

They don't die any more easily than humans, just come in smaller groups. But this'll change soon enough, I daresay.

 

"All problems will be solved by killing all templars." or "All problems will be solved by killing all mages."

Well, killing all templars will certainly solve one problem.

[Steelcan]

I agree. It can be applies to any group. 

 

"All problems will be solved by killing all templars." or "All problems will be solved by killing all mages."

 

Simple answer...no they won't. 

 

 

Pretty sure wiping out the mages would end the mage rebellion, just a thought...

 

 

Not that I would encourage such an act, mages are useful and I am fine with giving them some greater rights.

 

 

 

Elves on the other hand...

[dragonflight288]

I 800000% agree with you. I think Meredith and Aveline were both largely to blame for that entire thing. I'm more annoyed with Aveline for waving it off, but I'm more confused by Meredith totally ignoring the big, red flashing lights that were blinking "Blood Mage"

 

I'm completely curious why there weren't a whole squad of templars all over that foundry with the presence of the demons.

[Steelcan]

 

They don't die any more easily than humans, just come in smaller groups. But this'll change soon enough, I daresay.

 

 

 

 

yes it will, one day soon the elves will be a distant memory

[Xilizhra]

yes it will, one day soon the elves will be a distant memory

You first.

[Grieving Natashina]

<catches up on thread>

 

This is like some sort of screwed up Merry-Go-Round in here.  'Round and 'round we go, back and forth with the same arguments.  I can understand the fun in debate.  I think it's humorous that some folks debate like they are going to change the other's mind.

 

I gotta admit, I also found the statement, "We just need to crush them again," funny as hell.  Sure, it worked for a long time.  Times are now different, and change is sweeping the land.  As Flemeth (too accurately) said, "We stand on the precipice of change."  Well, we've gone over that edge.  Once changes like this start, you can't expect it to ever go back to the way it was before.  The only way to go now is forward, and working together.

 

While the Mages and Templars were sitting around fighting with each other, the demons would show up and kill them all.  I find this rather petty given what's coming up.  Does anyone think, when it comes down to it, that a demon is going to give a flying toss if it's a robe or a skirt?   We aren't dealing with demons just in the Fade anymore. No one is immune to possession if their will is weak enough/ the demon's will is strong enough.  It's pretty humorous to think that Templars are going to be automatically more safe from possession when demons are walking around on the Material Plane.  

 

 Everyone is in danger now of possession.  If these two groups don't work together, Thedas is done for.  The demons and darkspawn will win and everyone, mage, Templar or mundane, will be dead.  That doesn't sound productive to me.

 

As varied as this conversation is, I think it only strengthens the original purpose behind this thread.  We don't have really enough balanced representation of both sides to get any sort of clearer picture.   I'm glad they did in Asunder, but truthfully until it plays out in game, this constant bickering won't stop  slow down.  

[Steelcan]

You first.

I will be a distant memory before a fictional race?

 

 

no matter which way I slice it this keeps looking like a threat

[durasteel]

I can give Orsino the benefit of the doubt about taking what he knew about Quentin to the Templars, but that doesn't let him off the hook. That idiot knew what kind of person Quentin was and what kind of research he was into--he had an obligation as a sentient and as First Enchanter to take action to handle Quentin.

 

Kirkwall is crawling with assassins and sellswords. I would have hired the Crows to take Quentin out, but if Orsino wanted to keep it local Athenril would have been an obvious choice. Hell, getting Hawke to help out with that would have made sense.

 

Instead, Orsino did nothing. He let Quentin remain on the loose knowing what a sick bag of vomit the man was, and just put his research on a shelf. The inescapable conclusion is that Orsino was either hoping that Quentin would continue his research and come up with something brilliant that Orsino could benefit from while pretending to share no responsibility for Quentin's methods, or that Orsino is a mouth breathing idiot.

[Xilizhra]

I will be a distant memory before a fictional race?

 

 

no matter which way I slice it this keeps looking like a threat

Well, given that it would be completely insane for you to talk about killing elves as though you were real if you were referring to your IRL self, I had assumed we were referring to your IC persona.

[dragonflight288]

Pretty sure wiping out the mages would end the mage rebellion, just a thought...

 

 

Wiping out all the mages won't solve other peripheral problems. Duncan says at Ostagar that the mages are preparing the joining. Alistair says he knows the joining takes lyrium. That means you need mages and those trained to handle lyrium safely just to create new Grey Wardens. without those, you may as well kiss all life goodbye come the next blight. 

 

Also, I have never seen someone who wasn't a mage or a Fade spirit actually able to mend a torn veil. And there are examples of the veil being sundered without magic. It happened in the denerim alienage's orphanage as a result of the purge. It resulted in Northern Rivain as a result of an Exalted March against the qunari who refused to leave. 

 

Nor does it solve the issue of training new mages who are born every day. Kill all the mages, and soon you'll have a whole new generation of mages who won't have anyone around, save Tevinter, and that won't be good for the Andrastian nations.

 

 

 

Not that I would encourage such an act, mages are useful and I am fine with giving them some greater rights.

 

 

 

Elves on the other hand...[/quote]

 

 

 

Need I recite the tale of Garahel, the elf who killed the archdemon and ended the fourth blight? (not that I actually know it, but he is referenced all the time in Origins.)

 

Maybe I should talk of Shartan, who helped Andraste overthrow the Tevinter Imperium in southern Thedas. 

 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 28 février 2014 - 04:48 .

[Divine Justinia V]

I'm completely curious why there weren't a whole squad of templars all over that foundry with the presence of the demons.

 

And yet, the entire Circle of Magi deserved to get slaughtered based on one apostates actions? This is where I get confused by the logic of the Templar Order.

[Steelcan]

Well, given that it would be completely insane for you to talk about killing elves as though you were real if you were referring to your IRL self, I had assumed we were referring to your IC persona.

 

I do love my IC persona, he's such a fun guy