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[Xilizhra]

Provided the mages don't try to chain the others, using their innate advantage (hello Tevinter)? What was first - the chicken or the egg? Who watches the watchmen? Ah, the questions

Institutionally, the revolution has not been guilty of that, so I don't think you need to worry.

 

 

Less interested in the usual hyperbole and inability to acknowledge the facts of the setting that don't fit her bias, and more interested in the use of the pronouns "we" and "us".

Mages and Templars being fictional makes membership in either faction impossible. I am absolutely certain that no one here can bend the forces of nature to their will through supernatural means, nor are they subject to predation from entities in a fictional magical dimension. Further, no one here has been segregated because of the aforementioned abilities/dangers, nor could anyone have possibly met a member of a fictional order of counter-magic warriors, much less be persecuted by them or made enemies of them.

It's convenient IC shorthand.

[renfrees]

Institutionally, the revolution has not been guilty of that, so I don't think you need to worry.

Revolution was not, but what caused the rise of Chantry dogmatics in the first place? So, we're back to our chicken question, yes?

[Xilizhra]

Revolution was not, but what caused the rise of Chantry dogmatics in the first place? So, we're back to our chicken question, yes?

An ancient slaveholding culture? Neither slavery nor bloodletting require mages, as we can easily see from our own history.

[durasteel]

Revolution was not, but what caused the rise of Chantry dogmatics in the first place? So, we're back to our chicken question, yes?

 

There has never been a need for external causes or rational motivations in the rise of zealotry or dogmatic extremism. There was no need for actual witchcraft to inspire the Spanish Inquisition, for example. 

 

While there are certainly dangers associated with demons, the fact that societies that have not followed the Chantry's model for the past thousand years haven't destroyed the world does suggest that the Chantry might by hyperbolising the "mage problem" in order to expand its own power and influence.

[TK514]

There has never been a need for external causes or rational motivations in the rise of zealotry or dogmatic extremism. There was no need for actual witchcraft to inspire the Spanish Inquisition, for example.

While there are certainly dangers associated with demons, the fact that societies that have not followed the Chantry's model for the past thousand years haven't destroyed the world does suggest that the Chantry might by hyperbolising the "mage problem" in order to expand its own power and influence.

Of course, we'll ignore the fact that when it comes to these non-Chantry societies, they are either a so small in number as to be irrelevant (Current Dalish Clans), we know little to nothing about how they handle Mages and potential magical catastrophes (current 'barbarian' tribes, Arlathan Elves), or they are so brutally anti-Mage as to make death look appealing (the Qunari).

Edit: It's probably not fair to omit the culture that enslaved an entire race, sacrificed countless in bloody rituals, and tried to play god with two realities, possibly resulting in a horror that has pushed the dwarves to the brink of extinction and almost wiped out all other life on the surface on multiple occasions.

[The Elder King]

There has never been a need for external causes or rational motivations in the rise of zealotry or dogmatic extremism. There was no need for actual witchcraft to inspire the Spanish Inquisition, for example.

While there are certainly dangers associated with demons, the fact that societies that have not followed the Chantry's model for the past thousand years haven't destroyed the world does suggest that the Chantry might by hyperbolising the "mage problem" in order to expand its own power and influence.

Well, one society kind of lead to a world-threatening event (which was the reason of its own decline).

[Cainhurst Crow]

There has never been a need for external causes or rational motivations in the rise of zealotry or dogmatic extremism. There was no need for actual witchcraft to inspire the Spanish Inquisition, for example. 
 
While there are certainly dangers associated with demons, the fact that societies that have not followed the Chantry's model for the past thousand years haven't destroyed the world does suggest that the Chantry might by hyperbolising the "mage problem" in order to expand its own power and influence.

Possibly. But don't pretend that there is no reason to be wary of mages or that they're just regular folks who happen to have an arbitrary difference of physical appearance. Thr fact that a society of mage-centric slavers previously held a tight choke hold on all of thedas, and that the difference being discussed between mages and non mages are super powers, the chantry might have an easier time getting followers and supporters then you think and not needed to resort to lies as you accuse them of. As for these out of chsntry threats, what are they? Dalish haven't been battled by the chantry for hundreds of years so they don't count. The qunari tried and do wish to conquer thedas, even to this day. Tevinter continues to ****** on every other nation by hosting slavers rings who kidnap foreign citizens to keep their bloated and rotten economy afloat, and don't seem all that apologetic about sny of their past actions.

Every other enemy has either been dealt with or were too small to be recognized. In either case, they all seemed to have a single concern, the possibility of abominations or threats to the chantrys main building. Which in itself does indeed suggest a corruption but not of whether their enemies have been legitimate threats, but more of a hierarchical bias.

[Grieving Natashina]

The Dalish should count in this.  They have as much at stake as any other mage friendly society.  Sorry, but your statement came off as somehow the Chantry leaves the Dalish alone entirely.  Tone probably getting lost in text.

 

The Dalish and the Chantry haven't clashed for awhile for a couple of reasons:

 

1) The Dalish clans are scattered to the four winds.

2) They stay on the move.

 

It's been shown and stated that the Chantry does eventually start sniffing around the camps.  If the Dalish don't stay on the move, then the Templars try to round them up into alienages (with anyone showing signs of magic getting put into a circle.)  There might not be as much direct violence between the two groups anymore, that true.  However, to even imply that the Chantry seeks to leave the Dalish alone is erroneous. 

 

Anyhow, that was my only nitpick.  Carry on.

[Cainhurst Crow]

To be honest if the templars viewed the dalish as any sort of threat on the level of the qun and tevinter, they wouldn't still be dalish.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

To be honest if the templars viewed the dalish as any sort of threat on the level of the qun and tevinter, they wouldn't still be dalish.

Well, they did warrant an Exalted March, which the only other recipients of that were Tevinter twice and the Qunari once, so I'd say they see the Dalish as a threat because of 'if they rose up before, they will again' type mentality. But unlike the other two, the Dalish are scattered.

[The Elder King]

To be honest if the templars viewed the dalish as any sort of threat on the level of the qun and tevinter, they wouldn't still be dalish.

They don't view dalish as the same threat as Tevinter and qunari because the dalish aren't in condition of doing much damage.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, they did warrant an Exalted March, which the only other recipients of that were Tevinter twice and the Qunari once, so I'd say they see the Dalish as a threat because of 'if they rose up before, they will again' type mentality.  

 

To be exact the Chantry and Empire of Orlais responded to the invasion FROM the Dalish.

 

Not that the Dalish state was in and of it self a threat to either; I am of the mind that if the Dalish truly provoked the full wrath from either party rather then the petty dissolution of their state? There wouldn't be any Dalish remaining by the time the dragon age rolled around.

 

You likely would have had "Kill on sight" when it came to tribal elves after the war.

[Grieving Natashina]

To be honest if the templars viewed the dalish as any sort of threat on the level of the qun and tevinter, they wouldn't still be dalish.

 

Yes, but you can't claim that the Dalish was free from Chantry threat.  That's just not true.  They are still considered a threat by the Chantry as long as they continue to be free elves.  Sure, the Chantry isn't amassing armies after them at the moment.  As others pointed out, they are simply too scattered to be any major concern.

 

Their voices should count in this as much as anyone else. 

 

Make no mistake, the Chantry will continue this quiet persistence of the Dalish.  Most  won't be happy until all the elves in Thedas are in an alienage. With their Keepers, Firsts and anyone else with magic is in the Circle.  Not until they think that ever elf has "found their proper place according the Chant and shall find peace with their place by the Maker."   The Chantry has too much power over everyone's lives.  

 

I'm not stepping into the debate about who started what.  I'm only talking about Thedas right now.

 

 

This is why I hate theocracies.  

[Master Warder Z_]

They don't view dalish as the same threat as Tevinter and qunari because the dalish aren't in condition of doing much damage.

 

Elves are an issue that can just be waited out.

 

Humanity will persevere long after they are a distant memory.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

To be exact the Chantry and Empire of Orlais responded to the invasion FROM the Dalish.

 

Not that the Dalish state was in and of it self a threat to either; I am of the mind that if the Dalish truly provoked the full wrath from either party rather then the petty dissolution of their state? There wouldn't be any Dalish remaining by the time the dragon age rolled around.

 

You likely would have had "Kill on sight" when it came to tribal elves after the war.

Oh, I know that. I'm just saying that the Dalish were seen as enough of a threat to have an Exalted March initiated, and that some of those views still remain.

[Master Warder Z_]

Oh, I know that. I'm just saying that the Dalish were seen as enough of a threat to have an Exalted March initiated, and that some of those views still remain.

 

They were sacking Orlaisian Cities and apparently marching upon the capital; Orlais recovering from the blight as it was couldn't mete up the force to stop them alone. And given how its the central place of worship for the Adrastratian Chantry it makes sense to declare it a war of religion.

 

I'd say it had much more to do with the Nation it was invading over the threat of the Dalish.

 

That's just me though.

[renfrees]

Its hard to play guerrilla wars, as history shows us. Thats why Fog Warriors still remains, despite both Tevinters and Qunari, thats why Dalish remains relatively unscathed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They were sacking Orlaisian Cities and apparently marching upon the capital; Orlais recovering from the blight as it was couldn't mete up the force to stop them alone. And given how its the central place of worship for the Adrastratian Chantry it makes sense to declare it a war of religion.

 

I'd say it had much more to do with the Nation it was invading over the threat of the Dalish.

 

That's just me though.

If that was the case, simply driving them back and pushing into their land would have been sufficient. Kicking the Dalish out of their homeland and dooming them to become eternal vagrants went too far.

[Master Warder Z_]

Its hard to play guerrilla wars, as history shows us. Thats why Fog Warriors still remains, despite both Tevinters and Qunari, thats why Dalish remains relatively unscathed.

 

Relatively?

 

Debatable considering we have no idea just how many "clans" are left, how many clans there were prior to the destruction of the dales.

 

etc, Historical accounts of the time do not provide the numbers needed to give accuracy to that statement and given its bioware its doubtful it ever will.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Its hard to play guerrilla wars, as history shows us. Thats why Fog Warriors still remains, despite both Tevinters and Qunari, thats why Dalish remains relatively unscathed.

I think this will be a key part of how the Mages aren't wiped out by the Templars.

[Master Warder Z_]

If that was the case, simply driving them back and pushing into their land would have been sufficient. Kicking the Dalish out of their homeland and dooming them to become eternal vagrants went too far.

 

Why? Because you like the Dalish?

 

Seizing territory after a war to recoup resource lossage during it is a practice that extends back as far as wars have been fought.

 

And given the Dales are now a relatively occupied Human settlement within Orlais. I can see that they didn't just seize them to seize them; They reoccupied them and used the territory actually.

[renfrees]

If that was the case, simply driving them back and pushing into their land would have been sufficient. Kicking the Dalish out of their homeland and dooming them to become eternal vagrants went too far.

It never works, the simple kicking it is, if you have the power and resources beyond kicking. Look at the WWII - the simple kicking out of occupied homeland wasn't enough, the threat should have been diminished. Yes, it went too far in case of Dalish and i deeply mourn their freedom and their homeland, but thats how generally counterweight works in these cases.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why? Because you like the Dalish?

 

Seizing territory after a war to recoup resource lossage during it is a practice that extends back as far as wars have been fought.

 

And given the Dales are now a relatively occupied Human settlement within Orlais. I can see that they didn't just seize them to seize them; They reoccupied them and used the territory actually.

Not particularly. For example, I definitely see how the Dalish at the time brought it upon themselves. However, forcing the descendants to pay for the crimes of their ancestors is just as bad as what the Dwarves due to the Casteless, and such an act is only ensuring the wounds between the two races will never heal.

[durasteel]

Of course, we'll ignore the fact that when it comes to these non-Chantry societies, they are either a so small in number as to be irrelevant (Current Dalish Clans), we know little to nothing about how they handle Mages and potential magical catastrophes (current 'barbarian' tribes, Arlathan Elves), or they are so brutally anti-Mage as to make death look appealing (the Qunari).

Edit: It's probably not fair to omit the culture that enslaved an entire race, sacrificed countless in bloody rituals, and tried to play god with two realities, possibly resulting in a horror that has pushed the dwarves to the brink of extinction and almost wiped out all other life on the surface on multiple occasions.

 

The Chantry came to Rivain relatively recently, before which time its mages lived in freedom and apparent happy coexistence with their non-mage family members and neighbors.

 

In my post which you quoted, I specifically referenced the past thousand years (the millenium of Chantry.) The field trip to the Golden/Black City happened before that, and so could not have been prevented by perfect universal acceptance of the Templar oversight of all Circles of Magi in accordance with the Chant of Light as interpreted by old women with French accents.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It never works, the simple kicking it is, if you have power and resources beyond kicking. Look at the WWII - the simple kicking out of occupied homeland wasn't enough, the threat should have been diminished. Yes, it went too far in case of Dalish and i deeply mourn their freedom and their homeland, but thats how generally counterweight works in these cases.

By pushing into their lands, I pretty much meant what you said. It was the forcing them and their descendants to become vagrants that went too far.