By pushing into their lands, I pretty much meant what you said. It was the forcing them and their descendants to become vagrants that went too far.
I agree, but I think the Chantry has a way of "going too far" with a lot of the problems that they settle.
By pushing into their lands, I pretty much meant what you said. It was the forcing them and their descendants to become vagrants that went too far.
The moral of the story is, don't start fights you can't win
Not particularly. For example, I definitely see how the Dalish at the time brought it upon themselves. However, forcing the descendants to pay for the crimes of their ancestors is just as bad as what the Dwarves due to the Casteless, and such an act is only ensuring the wounds between the two races will never heal.
Heh i like you; You know that?
Personally? My POV outside of DA? I'd agree the utter destruction of the Dales was most likely done out of spite rather then the tactical importance of said lands or their value in resources. And it also prevented the relations between those races from ever recovering to the extent it was just centuries prior.
But from that aside; It was done and Orlais had every right to do it; Remember Orlais is a conquering Empire that has spread and expanded and created its self as the pinnacle of Human culture in Thedas. It won the war, it got to dictate the terms of the war; I'd say overall? The Dalish got off light enough for me to realize that while they got a raw deal, it was the product of their own actions and something they will ultimately need to address themselves.
It's like i told Lob a while ago; After the war? The Dalish should have sought out Orlais and begged forgiveness, Embraced the victors culture with everything they had within them, Abandoned their dead oaths and served as a functionary of the Empire. There can never be equality if there isn't a common ground and the Dalish must seek to breach that, Why would Humanity? They already won.
I agree, but I think the Chantry has a way of "going too far" with a lot of the problems that they settle.
Understatement of the morning. 
That's like saying that the Qun may be just a little bit rigid.
Possibly. But don't pretend that there is no reason to be wary of mages or that they're just regular folks who happen to have an arbitrary difference of physical appearance. Thr fact that a society of mage-centric slavers previously held a tight choke hold on all of thedas, and that the difference being discussed between mages and non mages are super powers, the chantry might have an easier time getting followers and supporters then you think and not needed to resort to lies as you accuse them of. As for these out of chsntry threats, what are they? Dalish haven't been battled by the chantry for hundreds of years so they don't count. The qunari tried and do wish to conquer thedas, even to this day. Tevinter continues to ****** on every other nation by hosting slavers rings who kidnap foreign citizens to keep their bloated and rotten economy afloat, and don't seem all that apologetic about sny of their past actions.
Every other enemy has either been dealt with or were too small to be recognized. In either case, they all seemed to have a single concern, the possibility of abominations or threats to the chantrys main building. Which in itself does indeed suggest a corruption but not of whether their enemies have been legitimate threats, but more of a hierarchical bias.
There is reason to be wary of mages, just like there is reason to be wary of Reavers, Templars, and Grey Wardens. Tevinter is a horrible society based on slavery, and it was worse before the time of Andraste, but what makes it horrible is not the magical power it commands but the malignant will that wields it. The Qunari pose no lesser threat simply because their mages are leashed instead of leaders, and you don't have to look far to see real-world analogs from our own history--no Earth empire ever brought a plague of darkspawn or cause the ground to swallow up a more advanced society, but our ancestors have certainly been able to match Tevinter in sheer misery inflicted on sentients, in the creation of empires on the backs of slaves, and in the brutal subjugation of lands and people.
Heh i like you; You know that?
Personally? My POV outside of DA? I'd agree the utter destruction of the Dales was most likely done out of spite rather then the tactical importance of said lands or their value in resources. And it also prevented the relations between those races from ever recovering to the extent it was just centuries prior.
But from that aside; It was done and Orlais had every right to do it; Remember Orlais is a conquering Empire that has spread and expanded and created its self as the pinnacle of Human culture in Thedas. It won the war, it got to dictate the terms of the war; I'd say overall? The Dalish got off light enough for me to realize that while they got a raw deal, it was the product of their own actions and something they will ultimately need to address themselves.
It's like i told Lob a while ago; After the war? The Dalish should have sought out Orlais and begged forgiveness, Embraced the victors culture with everything they had within them, Abandoned their dead oaths and served as a functionary of the Empire. There can never be equality if there isn't a common ground and the Dalish must seek to breach that, Why would Humanity? They already won.
Thank you.
I can definitely see Orlais' side in it. They won the war, so why not reap the spoils of it by taking the very fertile lands which are the Dales. However, part of me would argue that any compromise Orlais agreed to would be too one-sided for the Dalish to accept. We see how their nation treats the elves that assimilated into their culture. Now if the City Elves weren't treated like objects but actually people, then the Dalish may have been more willing to swallow their pride and become a territory of the Orlesian Empire.
I agree, but I think the Chantry has a way of "going too far" with a lot of the problems that they settle.
The Chantry is not any different, than practically any Medieval religion, where faith and politics intertwine and dictate one another.
To be exact the Chantry and Empire of Orlais responded to the invasion FROM the Dalish.
....
I think we both know the Dalish were provoked. The Dales were invaded, and that wasn't called a war... when the elves started to fight back, then we call it a war, right?
Heh i like you; You know that?
Personally? My POV outside of DA? I'd agree the utter destruction of the Dales was most likely done out of spite rather then the tactical importance of said lands or their value in resources. And it also prevented the relations between those races from ever recovering to the extent it was just centuries prior.
But from that aside; It was done and Orlais had every right to do it; Remember Orlais is a conquering Empire that has spread and expanded and created its self as the pinnacle of Human culture in Thedas. It won the war, it got to dictate the terms of the war; I'd say overall? The Dalish got off light enough for me to realize that while they got a raw deal, it was the product of their own actions and something they will ultimately need to address themselves.
It's like i told Lob a while ago; After the war? The Dalish should have sought out Orlais and begged forgiveness, Embraced the victors culture with everything they had within them, Abandoned their dead oaths and served as a functionary of the Empire. There can never be equality if there isn't a common ground and the Dalish must seek to breach that, Why would Humanity? They already won.
And this is why the Dalish have literally no reason, now, not to raze Orlais to the ground when they have a chance. The nation is clearly blatantly untrustworthy, after all.
And this is why the Dalish have literally no reason, now, not to raze Orlais to the ground when they have a chance. The nation is clearly blatantly untrustworthy, after all.
Yes it worked out oh so well for them when they tried that while Orlais was fighting off a Blight, but if the elves want to throw themselves against Orlais and end up deader than the dodo I certainly won't stop them
I think we both know the Dalish were provoked. The Dales were invaded, and that wasn't called a war... when the elves started to fight back, then we call it a war, right?
Provoked enough to launch an invasion against their better armed, more populous and wealthy neighbors and fight a war they couldn't hope to win?
Their stupidity knows no bounds then
Hence why i say the elves must do the breaching; Humanity has already won.
No compromise can come from a victor.
Understatement of the morning.
That's like saying that the Qun may be just a little bit rigid.
lol very good point.
The Chantry is not any different, than practically any Medieval religion, where faith and politics intertwine and dictate one another.
Exactly, and as history as shown us, well, they can be a bit harsh.
Yes it worked out oh so well for them when they tried that while Orlais was fighting off a Blight, but if the elves want to throw themselves against Orlais and end up deader than the dodo I certainly won't stop them
No, the civil war and Veil tears would probably have to do the majority of the damage first. But with any luck, the Inquisition will be able to influence things... either by pushing it on to destruction, or by effectively taking it over.
I can definitely see Orlais' side in it. They won the war, so why not reap the spoils of it by taking the very fertile lands which are the Dales. However, part of me would argue that any compromise Orlais agreed to would be too one-sided for the Dalish to accept. We see how their nation treats the elves that assimilated into their culture. Now if the City Elves weren't treated like objects but actually people, then the Dalish may have been more willing to swallow their pride and become a territory of the Orlesian Empire.
The Orlesians were simply playing the game of thrones, so to speak. I think elements of the Orlesian Empire had a variety of reasons to resent the Dales and hate the elves, so their agents picked a fight. The elves fell for it, swallowed the bait, hook, line, and sinker, and at that point the fate of the Dales was sealed. I do believe that the Orlesians got more than they bargained for and were probably surprised by the elves ability to fight them, but as I've said previously, they were essentially like Spartacus' slave rebellion against Rome. Their achievements under the circumstances were impressive, but the outcome was never much in doubt.
No, the civil war and Veil tears would probably have to do the majority of the damage first. But with any luck, the Inquisition will be able to influence things... either by pushing it on to destruction, or by effectively taking it over.
Like the Irish waited for WW1 before trying to declare independence, that worked out really well as well.
Elvish nationalism is a pipe dream at this point, they may be able to carve out a realm in some backwater, but going against Orlais would be utterly moronic for them, so par for tthe course I guess but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't like being massacred.
Thank you.
I can definitely see Orlais' side in it. They won the war, so why not reap the spoils of it by taking the very fertile lands which are the Dales. However, part of me would argue that any compromise Orlais agreed to would be too one-sided for the Dalish to accept. We see how their nation treats the elves that assimilated into their culture. Now if the City Elves weren't treated like objects but actually people, then the Dalish may have been more willing to swallow their pride and become a territory of the Orlesian Empire.
There can never be an accord from one side with out the other agreeing to it; and the first move here must come from the elves else it will never happen.
And by now its too unlikely for it to ever come; The Dalish are a dying breed, Orlais may be fighting amongst it self but Monarchies rise and fall.
Species that die out, stay dead.
Like the Irish waited for WW1 before trying to declare independence, that worked out really well as well.
Elvish nationalism is a pipe dream at this point, they may be able to carve out a realm in some backwater, but going against Orlais would be utterly moronic for them, so par for tthe course I guess but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't like being massacred.
The Dalish definitely won't be wiped out in this game, so if this event can happen, they'll probably win.
The Chantry came to Rivain relatively recently, before which time its mages lived in freedom and apparent happy coexistence with their non-mage family members and neighbors.
In my post which you quoted, I specifically referenced the past thousand years (the millenium of Chantry.) The field trip to the Golden/Black City happened before that, and so could not have been prevented by perfect universal acceptance of the Templar oversight of all Circles of Magi in accordance with the Chant of Light as interpreted by old women with French accents.
The Dalish definitely won't be wiped out in this game, so if this event can happen, they'll probably win.
If you can help them win you can probably also help them fail
If you can help them win you can probably also help them fail
Too much of a divergence point, and the Dalish have to be preserved as a racial option for later games. If it happens, it'll probably be necessary for the Inquisition somehow.
The Orlesians were simply playing the game of thrones, so to speak. I think elements of the Orlesian Empire had a variety of reasons to resent the Dales and hate the elves, so their agents picked a fight. The elves fell for it, swallowed the bait, hook, line, and sinker, and at that point the fate of the Dales was sealed. I do believe that the Orlesians got more than they bargained for and were probably surprised by the elves ability to fight them, but as I've said previously, they were essentially like Spartacus' slave rebellion against Rome. Their achievements under the circumstances were impressive, but the outcome was never much in doubt.
When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
._. Abject lesson here.
Don't play against an Empire that has more territory then any other nation in the continent.
It got it for a reason.
Too much of a divergence point, and the Dalish have to be preserved as a racial option for later games. If it happens, it'll probably be necessary for the Inquisition somehow.
Racial Options?
DA 2 was a lesson that it didn't needed to be included for a storyline to work.
And helping an elven rebellion somehow forces its way into being critical for the storyline?
Xil i hate to say it but that sounds like fishing even for you.
There can never be an accord from one side with out the other agreeing to it; and the first move here must come from the elves else it will never happen.
And by now its too unlikely for it to ever come; The Dalish are a dying breed, Orlais may be fighting amongst it self but Monarchies rise and fall.
Species that die out, stay dead.
I agree that the Dalish will probably have to make the first move. I say probably because who knows, maybe Orlais will suddenly feel sympathy and charitable to the Dalish. The way it may work is if the Dalish clans come with a few requests, even just a couple. Those requests being let them keep their religion, and let the City Elves live in their territory if they so desire. While the chantry will hate the first part, Orlais is much more practical than idealogical and would more see the benefits of having thousands or tens of thousands of new citizens to both employ and tax, while the only difference is the elves will live in a territory instead of alienages. It also eliminates the threat the Dalish once imposed on things like trading routes considerably, so they not only gain an ally but lose an enemy.
Not necessarily. I'm sure they could come up with a Dalish survivor background and there will always be city elves.Too much of a divergence point, and the Dalish have to be preserved as a racial option for later games. If it happens, it'll probably be necessary for the Inquisition somehow.
When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
._. Abject lesson here.
Don't play against an Empire that has more territory then any other nation in the continent.
It got it for a reason.
But the only reason why they won was because the chantry asked other places for help.
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