8640 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Fereldan was a matter of chance and politics things came together and it became worth more to abandon the territory then to hold it.

 

And Tveinter crumbled after it endured a blight, remember that; Had that not occurred? Well i doubt the Imperium would have fallen considering it maintained the largest military well...in history.

 

Neither of these things really apply to the Orlaisian proper mind you.

 

Orlais has been defeated, lost wars, but it has always remained in its position of superiority remember that.

 

Why is that? How has it lost and not yet crumbled like the Imperium? Why is the wealthiest Nation in Thedas? Why does it maintain the greatest military? All these questions revolve around what exactly makes Orlais, Orlais and you know what is? The Ability to Unite, To put aside petty differences when it comes to matters of war and state. The game continues mind you, but why be King of a field of ashes? They realize that.

 

Its why the game never endangers Orlais it self, If it ever does...Well you see what occurs in history, Leliana got a small measure of that.

 

Ah, here's the thing. Up to this point, Orlais has been different from Tevinter for the reasons your stated.

 

But now, now things are getting interesting. They are in the middle of a civil war, there's an elven rebellion, the chantry has fallen to pieces and lost all martial strength. Whatever happens in Orlais now, it'll be done without Chantry support, or city-elf suppor labor if the elven rebellion is widespread in Orlais. 

 

Orlais is now in the exact position Tevinter was when it fell from being a superpower. 

[Divine Justinia V]

That's what I thought, does anyone have the World of Thedas or relevant codex entry links on hand?

Originally, only the Orlesian Empire went to battle, and the elves from the Dales responded with a fury that the Empire couldn't deal with. The elves made serious gains, even sacking the Orlesian capital of Val Royeaux until the other Andrastian nations joined the March. An elven general named Rajmael is known who died in the Forlorn Falls.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's what I thought, does anyone have the World of Thedas or relevant codex entry links on hand?

 

Yeah: Page 13 of World of Thedas. There is a section on the history of all the Chantry's Exalted Marches. In the first of two paragraphs about the Exalted March of the Dales it says "Orlais was the only nation to provide troops."

 

 

 

Originally, only the Orlesian Empire went to battle, and the elves from the Dales responded with a fury that the Empire couldn't deal with. The elves made serious gains, even sacking the Orlesian capital of Val Royeaux until the other Andrastian nations joined the March. An elven general named Rajmael is known who died in the Forlorn Falls.

 

That is from the wiki.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It could happen i suppose but its much to late for it become anything more then a mere vassal Nation, Not to mention the elves having the ability to just pack up and leave would likely be a no go as well. You need to remember that Orlais like its nearby neighbors employs Serfs, Servants and Slaves in their daily routine, if not elves then it would need to be Human which makes Orlais no better then the Imperium. You see it would cause a change in their own system if that occurred in mass and i don't see Orlais changing for the sake of more tax revenue.

 

Had this occurred right after the war as i suggested? Who knows, But we are many centuries removed from the fall of the dales, and not to mention what would be there to maintain the given balance? Would Orlais maintain garrisons in the dales to ensure they paid their taxes? 

Good points. I'm still putting it together. Everything you read was written on the fly. And when I said territory, I meant something like a vassal nation. It wouldn't be independent.

 

I hadn't considered that about them swapping to humans for labor, but then I think the using elves as indentured servants should stop. However, as we have seen while the City Elves may respect the Dalish, if they know of them at all, they also for the most part do not wish to live that way. I mean, a Ciy Elf is allowed to leave if they want, but only a few occasionally do. That is mostly because as Merrill put it "A solitary elf is easy prey for anyone", but could also be due to them having assimilated and accepted Andrastian culture over Dalish. So overall while if they got a steady vassal nation, there would be a large group leaving to join that part, I think the majority of the elves would stay where they are, especially if treated as people instead of things.

 

The other problem I thought of was how Dalish have Keepers as an integral part of their culture, yet that would mean having to live outside the circle. There are two ways that this could be handled. One, build a Circle in the Dales and house them all there. When a Keeper is needed, they can be escorted to where they need to go. Or they can still live where they are needed, but be under Templar supervision. I do think that the Chantry should use Elven Templars regardless of option, since they would get along much better thana human Templar in that situation.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ah, here's the thing. Up to this point, Orlais has been different from Tevinter for the reasons your stated.

 

But now, now things are getting interesting. They are in the middle of a civil war, there's an elven rebellion, the chantry has fallen to pieces and lost all martial strength. Whatever happens in Orlais now, it'll be done without Chantry support, or city-elf suppor labor if the elven rebellion is widespread in Orlais. 

 

Orlais is now in the exact position Tevinter was when it fell from being a superpower. 

 

Luckily the continent has other things to focus on then a divided Orlais eh?

 

Besides considering how the Civil was only just reaching its stride by the end of Asunder i have a feeling it will be a common plot element from now on at least until DAI but that said elven rebellion or no, There is nothing to suggest that beyond the division of its Monarchy it will be further widespread then that. Point being, Orlais is Orlais whether it remains or not isn't up to me and it isn't up to the lore.

 

Its up to the people who write the lore.

 

Also...There isn't a Blight coming to Orlais as of yet.

 

A little shuffle between two lords over a throne, some knife ears trying to rebel and you think that it will be the same thing?

 

It may be the end for Orlais as an Empire but it won't be an end of Orlais, given its an insular event. It will continue to exist most likely in one format or another.

[dragonflight288]

Luckily the continent has other things to focus on then a divided Orlais eh?

 

Besides considering how the Civil was only just reaching its stride by the end of Asunder i have a feeling it will be a common plot element from now on at least until DAI but that said elven rebellion or no, There is nothing to suggest that beyond the division of its Monarchy it will be further widespread then that. Point being, Orlais is Orlais whether it remains or not isn't up to me and it isn't up to the lore.

 

Its up to the people who write the lore.

 

Also...There isn't a Blight coming to Orlais as of yet.

 

A little shuffle between two lords over a throne, some knife ears trying to rebel and you think that it will be the same thing?

 

It may be the end for Orlais as an Empire but it won't be an end of Orlais, given its an insular event. It will continue to exist most likely in one format or another.

 

 

A little shuffle over the throne, and even support from the Chantry didn't stop Ferelden from driving them out.

 

If a bunch of farmers and dogs with very little training can do it, I'm reasonably sure elves can as well while the bigwigs in Orlais are distracted. 

 

And as you said, the world has other things to worry about other than a divided Orlais. The giant veil tear, a possible Qunari invasion, internal affairs. Orlais hasn't won many friends over the years because of their history of occupying everyone as they expanded.

 

As for the blights....I wouldn't rule out the surviving Disciples if you killed the Architect, or any future cases like the Mother if you spared him. Rather than one large blight with an archdemon, thanks to the disciples we could potentially face hundreds of mini-blights. It's true they can sprout up anywhere, whether Nevarra, Tevinter, the Free Marches or whatever. But since Inquisition is taking place in Orlais and Ferelden, if this avenue is explored, it'll probably happen in either Orlais or Ferelden. 

[leaguer of one]

That they got help and whether or not they needed it are two separate matters.

Per codex, it states Orlais was losing before the help came.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah: Page 13 of World of Thedas. There is a section on the history of all the Chantry's Exalted Marches. In the first of two paragraphs about the Exalted March of the Dales it says "Orlais was the only nation to provide troops."

 

 

 

 

That is from the wiki.

Which is from the codex from the game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As for the blights....I wouldn't rule out the surviving Disciples if you killed the Architect, or any future cases like the Mother if you spared him. Rather than one large blight with an archdemon, thanks to the disciples we could potentially face hundreds of mini-blights. It's true they can sprout up anywhere, whether Nevarra, Tevinter, the Free Marches or whatever. But since Inquisition is taking place in Orlais and Ferelden, if this avenue is explored, it'll probably happen in either Orlais or Ferelden. 

What's a mini-Blight?

[Heimdall]

Yeah: Page 13 of World of Thedas. There is a section on the history of all the Chantry's Exalted Marches. In the first of two paragraphs about the Exalted March of the Dales it says "Orlais was the only nation to provide troops."
 
 
 

 
That is from the wiki.

That's what I remembered. Someone should update the wiki.

[Heimdall]

Which is from the codex from the game.

Which codex? The link in the wiki links only to a mention of an elven General died in the conflict.

[Master Warder Z_]

A little shuffle over the throne, and even support from the Chantry didn't stop Ferelden from driving them out.

 

If a bunch of farmers and dogs with very little training can do it, I'm reasonably sure elves can as well while the bigwigs in Orlais are distracted. 

 

And as you said, the world has other things to worry about other than a divided Orlais. The giant veil tear, a possible Qunari invasion, internal affairs. Orlais hasn't won many friends over the years because of their history of occupying everyone as they expanded.

 

As for the blights....I wouldn't rule out the surviving Disciples if you killed the Architect, or any future cases like the Mother if you spared him. Rather than one large blight with an archdemon, thanks to the disciples we could potentially face hundreds of mini-blights. It's true they can sprout up anywhere, whether Nevarra, Tevinter, the Free Marches or whatever. But since Inquisition is taking place in Orlais and Ferelden, if this avenue is explored, it'll probably happen in either Orlais or Ferelden. 

 

Your comparing a poorly done occupation with a civil war and rebellion? The Emperor at the time didn't place much stock into keeping the province and even wrote it off once reinforcements from Orlais were denied entry via the River Dane where an Legion of Orlaisian Knights were routed under Loghain. My point being you have to consider the stock that the Orlaisians will put into their own homeland.

 

But your forgetting one thing, Common threats tend to unite people. It united white and black thedas for the first time in centuries to face the Qunari, You think Gaspard and Celene wouldn't do the same if it actually looked like the elves could do something? I can that civil war rapidly coming to a close once again and Gaspard biding his time until after the elves are put down. This is Thedas after all, Humanity is famous for uniting to face down threats to its existence.

 

And there is little to suggestion a new blight arising, the Darkspawn may be a threat in time but not today.

[The Elder King]

Which is from the codex from the game.

I think it's the codex from the Veshialle. Anyway, WoT is the most event source on the lore, so I'd pick it over the DAO codex.

[Heimdall]

I think it's the codex from the Veshialle. Anyway, WoT is the most event source on the lore, so I'd pick it over the DAO codex.

I checked that, it only mentions an elven general that fought bravely. It doesn't mention the elves winning or anything remotely like that.

EDIT: Here's what it says:

Although the elves of the Dales fought bravely against the Exalted March, defeat became obvious. The great elven general Rajmael hurled this axe at the enemy before leaping to his death over Forlorn Falls.

[Master Warder Z_]

Good points. I'm still putting it together. Everything you read was written on the fly. And when I said territory, I meant something like a vassal nation. It wouldn't be independent.

 

I hadn't considered that about them swapping to humans for labor, but then I think the using elves as indentured servants should stop. However, as we have seen while the City Elves may respect the Dalish, if they know of them at all, they also for the most part do not wish to live that way. I mean, a Ciy Elf is allowed to leave if they want, but only a few occasionally do. That is mostly because as Merrill put it "A solitary elf is easy prey for anyone", but could also be due to them having assimilated and accepted Andrastian culture over Dalish. So overall while if they got a steady vassal nation, there would be a large group leaving to join that part, I think the majority of the elves would stay where they are, especially if treated as people instead of things.

 

The other problem I thought of was how Dalish have Keepers as an integral part of their culture, yet that would mean having to live outside the circle. There are two ways that this could be handled. One, build a Circle in the Dales and house them all there. When a Keeper is needed, they can be escorted to where they need to go. Or they can still live where they are needed, but be under Templar supervision. I do think that the Chantry should use Elven Templars regardless of option, since they would get along much better thana human Templar in that situation.

 

 

This agreement would likely never occur mainly because both parties would need to have equal say, which means they would need equal stance which isn't going to happen.

 

At most you could see an elven puppet state like in the Witcher.

[The Elder King]

I checked that, it only mentions an elven general that fought bravely. It doesn't mention the elves winning or anything remotely like that.

I was referring to the fact that other nations partecipated in the Exalted March against the Dales.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This agreement would likely never occur mainly because both parties would need to have equal say, which means they would need equal stance which isn't going to happen.

 

At most you could see an elven puppet state like in the Witcher.

True. Chances are the things I set forth would be more "They happen over a period of time" than then being agreed upon in the beginning.

[Heimdall]

I was referring to the fact that other nations partecipated in the Exalted March against the Dales.

Doesn't say that either, I put it in my previous post.

[Master Warder Z_]

True. Chances are the things I set forth would be more "They happen over a period of time" than then being agreed upon in the beginning.

 

I could see perhaps an Elven nation coming forth for service to Orlais in the civil war perhaps, but it ultimately would be a vassal of the Empire, its leader or leaders beholden to what comes out of the Capital.

 

But that doesn't mean its impossible, if this state is created as a reward by Orlais then there is a chance for it linger in the world, a place for the elves to dwell when not needed, But as for the matter of maintaining a circle? I have a feeling that would likely be an instance by Orlais.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Strictly speaking I think there is no codex entry on Veshialle. That line is from the description of the weapon itself.

[leaguer of one]

I think it's the codex from the Veshialle. Anyway, WoT is the most event source on the lore, so I'd pick it over the DAO codex.

The WoT is a bias view. A concept of the victories writing history. So I look at it with a grain of salt.

[Heimdall]

Strictly speaking I think there is no codex entry on Veshialle. That line is from the description of the weapon itself.

Yup, I looked for one but if there is it isn't on the wiki.

[The Elder King]

Doesn't say that either, I put it in my previous post.

Yeah, I read the page on the EM of the Dales in the wikia and i though that this was the description on the Veshialle.
I wonder on what basis the wikia claims the intervention of other nations though. It should need an update.

[Heimdall]

The WoT is a bias view. A concept of the victories writing history. So I look at it with a grain of salt.

...The codex is the biased one, not the other way around. Besides which, I believe we've established that there isn't any source saying that other nations joined in the march.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I could see perhaps an Elven nation coming forth for service to Orlais in the civil war perhaps, but it ultimately would be a vassal of the Empire, its leader or leaders beholden to what comes out of the Capital.

 

But that doesn't mean its impossible, if this state is created as a reward by Orlais then there is a chance for it linger in the world, a place for the elves to dwell when not needed, But as for the matter of maintaining a circle? I have a feeling that would likely be an instance by Orlais.

Exactly. Sort of like how at the end or Origins if you played the Dalish Elf you could get the Brecilian Forest, except that in this case they would get the Dales as long as they swear fealty to Orlais. They would provide labor, goods, and taxes in exchange for the right to live there and be protected if attacked by another nation.

 

Yeah, the Circle thing I think would be a must, unless they make a new system in which case it would follow that instead. I still think having that Circle overseen by Elven Templars would be the way to go, since it will limit the racism and abuse born from that immeasurably.