8640 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

We should bring in some Lannisters to Thedas

 

Can't romance them unless you're related to them.

[MisterJB]

I mean, I haven't read all of the novels yet, but given how the Lannisters betrayed the Taegryans (or however you spell their name), the only reason they're still a noble house at all (and, you know, alive) is because Edward & Robert were playing !PureParagon for that playthrough.

The Lannisters were the only of the Great Houses that had no participated in the civil war which meant they were still at 100%. Plus, there's also the fact they are ridiculously wealthy which allows them not just to have a great control over Westeros but also to have the best equipped army. There is a reason Jon Arryn suggested Robert marry Cersei. That directly allied House Lannister to House Baratheon and with their backing, there was no one that could challenge Robert's kingship.

Also, it just wasn't in Robert's character to fight them. As far as he is concerned, if you've killed a Targaryen, you're good in his book.

[BlueMagitek]

The Lannisters were the only of the Great Houses that had no participated in the civil war which meant they were still at 100%. Plus, there's also the fact they are ridiculously wealthy which allows them not just to have a great control over Westeros but also to have the best equipped army. There is a reason Jon Arryn suggested Robert marry Cersei. That directly allied House Lannister to House Baratheon and with their backing, there was no one that could challenge Robert's kingship.

Also, it just wasn't in Robert's character to fight them. As far as he is concerned, if you've killed a Targaryen, you're good in his book.

The way they betrayed the Targaryens, however, should result in no one trusting them; the patriarch of the clan was the Hand (or former Hand), and the heir was on the Kingsguard and they still betrayed the rule.  The fact that they've mental instability issues is just icing on the cake.  It wasn't like Robert had secretly approached them and arranged this, this was a "here's Pompey's head on a plate, Caesar".

 

This is getting into "rewarded as a traitor deserves" territory.

[dragonflight288]

No reason?  it was a power grab after Orlais was weakened by a Blight, plain and simple

 

Hmm. Is it really so simple? 

 

Let me ask you a question. What motive would a country that believes associating with humans is what made them lose their immortality, and actually went out of their way to be total isolationists and cut off all trade with humans and limited contact, what motive would they have to conquer humans if they believe they should keep their distance? 

 

It's a fundamental part of their culture, so making the claim that it's a power grab like any human nation would do ignores that part of their society.

[BlueMagitek]

Hmm. Is it really so simple? 

 

Let me ask you a question. What motive would a country that believes associating with humans is what made them lose their immortality, and actually went out of their way to be total isolationists and cut off all trade with humans and limited contact, what motive would they have to conquer humans if they believe they should keep their distance? 

 

It's a fundamental part of their culture, so making the claim that it's a power grab like any human nation would do ignores that part of their society.

 

I didn't recognize you with your altered display picture.

 

Yes.

 

Because if there is one thing that the Dalish have been shown to be in the series, it is that they are absolutely terrible at making decisions.  But if you don't believe that, they were already flexing their muscles when Orlais was attempting to take over the FM; they apparently only have an issue with humans if they are in a non combat situation (otherwise, you know, they wouldn't have had their army within rescue reach of a human city and do nothing).

[dragonflight288]

I didn't recognize you with your altered display picture.

 

Yes.

 

Because if there is one thing that the Dalish have been shown to be in the series, it is that they are absolutely terrible at making decisions.  But if you don't believe that, they were already flexing their muscles when Orlais was attempting to take over the FM; they apparently only have an issue with humans if they are in a non combat situation (otherwise, you know, they wouldn't have had their army within rescue reach of a human city and do nothing).

 

Okay, you didn't actually answer the question I asked, but that may simply have been a result of poor word choice on my part, so I'll try again.

 

We know form WoT that the war lasted ten years before they lost. So if they were actually the ones who started it, what's their motive?

 

EDIT: yeah, I like my new avatar. Cookie points to you if you can guess the game. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 01 mars 2014 - 03:24 .

[BlueMagitek]

Okay. We know form WoT that the war lasted ten years before they lost. So if they were actually the ones who started it, what's their motive?

It was most likely that their attempts at racial purity weren't working, so they blamed humanity for being on the same planet as they.  They certainly didn't take any action against the darkspawn.

[dragonflight288]

It was most likely that their attempts at racial purity weren't working, so they blamed humanity for being on the same planet as they.  They certainly didn't take any action against the darkspawn.

 

If that's the motive, it would be very petty and goes against the very society we know of the Dalish, who are strictly isolationists, even the Orlesian accounts tell of how they turned away all traders, emissaries and missionaries. They cut off all contact from humans entirely, save for the border guards who were there to keep humans out. 

 

And the Orlesians would do the same considering their history and the fact that it's established that racial tensions were growing between them. It's not just elves who can be racist and want to wipe them out. And I think WoT actually talks about how racial tensions on the borders were increasing.

 

It takes two to fight. I'm sure the Dalish are partly responsible, but I have yet to hear a plausible motive for why they would start a war based on what we know of their culture. 

 

It may be possible that some radical groups of both sides got involved. Say a Sister Petrice type Revered Mother at Red Crossing sent some missionaries to convert the heathens, and sent her local templars when they were spurned. And in true Varnell fashion, provoked the elves violently, and the elves retaliated on Red Crossing, which in turn provoked Orlais into a war, and voila we have a conflict.

 

There's no lore or anything to suggest this is what actually happened, but nothing disproves it either. Simply a theory that is probably wrong. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know, it's possible neither side specifically set out to start the war. By the time of the raid of Red Crossing border skirmishes had already been going on for 4 years. Maybe the attack was just the point when things escalated and both sides mobilized larger armies.

[dragonflight288]

You know, it's possible neither side specifically set out to start the war. By the time of the raid of Red Crossing border skirmishes had already been going on for 4 years. Maybe the attack was just the point when things escalated.

 

Sort of like the Battle of Lexington in the American Revolutionary War?

 

I can see that. 

[BlueMagitek]

If that's the motive, it would be very petty and goes against the very society we know of the Dalish, who are strictly isolationists, even the Orlesian accounts tell of how they turned away all traders, emissaries and missionaries. They cut off all contact from humans entirely, save for the border guards who were there to keep humans out. 

 

And the Orlesians would do the same considering their history and the fact that it's established that racial tensions were growing between them. It's not just elves who can be racist and want to wipe them out. And I think WoT actually talks about how racial tensions on the borders were increasing.

 

It takes two to fight. I'm sure the Dalish are partly responsible, but I have yet to hear a plausible motive for why they would start a war based on what we know of their culture. 

 

It may be possible that some radical groups of both sides got involved. Say a Sister Petrice type Revered Mother at Red Crossing sent some missionaries to convert the heathens, and sent her local templars when they were spurned. And in true Varnell fashion, provoked the elves violently, and the elves retaliated on Red Crossing, which in turn provoked Orlais into a war, and voila we have a conflict.

 

There's no lore or anything to suggest this is what actually happened, but nothing disproves it either. Simply a theory that is probably wrong. 

 

Too petty for the Dalish?  Please, they straight up accuse the City Elf Warden of being an Uncle Tom even if you arrive at their camp with a Golem, a Dwarf and a Mabari / Elf / Qunari.  And for all you claim that they cut off contact from humans entirely, they still prevented the conquest of the Free Marshes, which you've been ignoring. :/

 

The difference is, Orlais (and most human nations) don't follow the core belief that elves are literally walking diseases that eats humans life force by being anywhere nearby.  It's a rather large distinction.

 

Unless you consider complete capitulation as a fair move, it does not take two to fight, one side can start it all their own.

 

Ah, so you agree that it is the fault of the elves.  I knew we'd find common ground.

 

Edit: Forgot Sten

[TK514]

EDIT: yeah, I like my new avatar. Cookie points to you if you can guess the game. 

 

Kingdoms of Amalur.

[dragonflight288]

Too petty for the Dalish?  Please, they straight up accuse the City Elf Warden of being an Uncle Tom even if you arrive at their camp with a Golem, a Dwarf and a Mabari / Elf.  And for all you claim that they cut off contact from humans entirely, they still prevented the conquest of the Free Marshes, which you've been ignoring. :/

 

 

The city elves accuse a city elf warden of essentially being the same thing after the purge, and quickly change their mind after he/she brings back the elves Loghain sold into slavery. 

 

And I haven't been ignoring that. The codex says that Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches like he wanted because the Dalish were in the way. At the time, the border skirmishes and racial tensions were rising, so it's not likely that they were actively harrassing Orlais's military. 

 

Let me put it this way, it's not sound military strategy to send all your armies to fight on one front when you have potential enemy combatants knocking on your back door. You keep your military close by because if the powder keg does blow, you'll want something to help contain the blast, if you'll allow me the metaphor.

 

 

 

The difference is, Orlais (and most human nations) don't follow the core belief that elves are literally walking diseases that eats humans life force by being anywhere nearby.  It's a rather large distinction.

 

 

[/quote]

I never said they were.

 

But there are a lot of rumors that are widely believed that are blatantly false, like human sacrifices. Pol asks the Dalish warden this, and the Warden can be like Merrill to Anders in DA2 and overemphasize it as a joke for believing such a ridiculous rumor. Rumors that the Chantry, Orlais, and pretty much all other nations, Tevinter and Qunari apparently included in, have no interest in debunking. 

 

 

 

Unless you consider complete capitulation as a fair move, it does not take two to fight, one side can start it all their own.

 

Ah, so you agree that it is the fault of the elves.  I knew we'd find common ground.  

 

I hold the elves to be party responsible, it's ture. History is told by the victors, and I doubt Orlais would give all the details if some of them made themselves look bad. Just like I don't trust the elves to give me a purely objective recitation. 

 

Modern Dalish clans are huge fans of maintaining an "I'm a victim, so screw you" mindset. I can't speak for the ancient elves as none of the information we have actually details the way they ran their society, their politics and such aside from the fact that they had free mages, didn't believe in the Maker. On the flipside, Orlais was founded by Drakon in order to spread the Chant of Light to all the world. That is Drakon's recorded reason for Exalted Marching all the other city-states into submission and founding the Chantry. And the Chantry wants to spread the Chant of Light to all corners of the world so the Maker will return.

 

Neither side wants information out that makes their side look bad. 

 

 

 

EDIT: This is weird, I separated my comments from yours, yet they still appear in the quote box. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 01 mars 2014 - 03:50 .

[dragonflight288]

Kingdoms of Amalur.

 

Congratulations. Here's a cookie. Use internet magic to make it your favorite kind.

[BlueMagitek]

The city elves accuse a city elf warden of essentially being the same thing after the purge, and quickly change their mind after he/she brings back the elves Loghain sold into slavery. 

 

And I haven't been ignoring that. The codex says that Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches like he wanted because the Dalish were in the way. At the time, the border skirmishes and racial tensions were rising, so it's not likely that they were actively harrassing Orlais's military. 

 

Let me put it this way, it's not sound military strategy to send all your armies to fight on one front when you have potential enemy combatants knocking on your back door. You keep your military close by because if the powder keg does blow, you'll want something to help contain the blast, if you'll allow me the metaphor.

 

Firstly, what happened to your post?  The quotes, they burn.

 

Yes, but the City Elves at least know of your character beforehand, and if you sold your cousin out to Vaughn, they are right to do so.  And you did assist in bringing the purge down on them.  Something different than, you know, being a Grey Warden looking for allies in a forest from people you haven't met before alongside characters that the Dalish shouldn't be offended by.

 

I thought that the Dalish didn't want to deal with the humans at all, enforcing total isolation among their subjects?

 

Into your quote:

 

Were you not accusing Orlais of racial reasons for doing so?  Your response implied such.  As for the rumors, Merrill does talk about kidnapping human children, Zathy resulted in a lot of cursed humans - the Dalish nobility is fairly messed up.  And you know what, given that Tevinter engages in human sacrifice (and elf sacrifice), it could be taken that the Dalish had blood mages among their ranks.  Which could certainly be true (again, Merrill).

 

Frankly I don't think Orlais cares what anyone thinks of how they treated the Dales or why the war started; if anything, evidence that Orlais started it would probably be met with "meh" at worst, or pretend postulating with behind the back congratulations.  After all, not a single nation went to aid the Dales, and the Dales refused to join forces against an enemy that threatened all life on Thedas.

[dragonflight288]

 

Firstly, what happened to your post?  The quotes, they burn.

 

No idea. I tried fixing it in an edit, and only made it worse.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, but the City Elves at least know of your character beforehand, and if you sold your cousin out to Vaughn, they are right to do so.  And you did assist in bringing the purge down on them.  Something different than, you know, being a Grey Warden looking for allies in a forest from people you haven't met before alongside characters that the Dalish shouldn't be offended by.

 

True, but is far less justifiable if you didn't sell your cousin to Vaughn and took all the blame to turn yourself in before your conscription.

 

 

I thought that the Dalish didn't want to deal with the humans at all, enforcing total isolation among their subjects?

 

And that policy removes a great deal of the motive they would have to start a war with humans. No matter how the Chantry spins it, or what rumors persist about the Dalish, no one in the game has ever addressed this issue. Which leads me to believe that the Chantry either doesn't know and simply doesn't care to learn the elven perspective, or that information has been lost to time and the fires of the war.

 

 

 

Into your quote:

 

Were you not accusing Orlais of racial reasons for doing so?  Your response implied such.  As for the rumors, Merrill does talk about kidnapping human children, Zathy resulted in a lot of cursed humans - the Dalish nobility is fairly messed up.  And you know what, given that Tevinter engages in human sacrifice (and elf sacrifice), it could be taken that the Dalish had blood mages among their ranks.  Which could certainly be true (again, Merrill).

 

Frankly I don't think Orlais cares what anyone thinks of how they treated the Dales or why the war started; if anything, evidence that Orlais started it would probably be met with "meh" at worst, or pretend postulating with behind the back congratulations.  After all, not a single nation went to aid the Dales, and the Dales refused to join forces against an enemy that threatened all life on Thedas.

 

Orais is most definitely racist, there is no doubt about it. They practice slavery like Tevinter does, but they call it a different name to make themselves feel better about it. Leliana and a Dalish warden can discuss it, and Leliana doesn't actually deny that elves are slaves, or that Val Reayeaux's alienage is considered the worst one in all of Thedas. The chantry actively teaches against anyone who is of a different belief is a heathen. And I don't see any reason why the Canticle of Shartan had to be removed from the Chant of Light after the war with the Dales. 

 

That's probably my biggest problem with the Chantry (and the dwarves memories) is that they pick and choose which scriptures they wish to believe in that matches their interpretations. If they really cared about the true word of the Maker, there wouldn't be Dissonant Verses like the Canticle of Shartan or Maferath. 

 

I can see the possibility of someone like Petrie and Varnell enflaming tensions with the elves for similar reasons. Sister Petrice took the Qunari presence in Kirkwall as an open challenge to the Chantry, when all they were doing was looking for a book and being really unfriendly towards everyone while doing so, and they weren't actively hostile until they had been provoked time and again. I'm simply raising the possibility that there may be some in the Chantry who exerted their influence in order to try and 'convert the heathens.'

 

As for Merrill...I'm assuming you're talking about her discussion with Anders where she says that a Dalish party wouldn't be complete without the human sacrifice, and Anders in a stunned voice asks really and then she quite frankly says in an Arishok/Sten sort of way, "No."

 

As for Orlais not caring? I don't see why they wouldn't care. After the war, the Chantry declared that elves had to convert and live in alienages, the canticle of shartan is removed from the Chant, and they completely destroy elven culture. If it were revealed that they did something reprehensible, they would lose legitimacy for these actions taken by them, and the Chantry founded by them. 

 

Kind of like the dwarves who killed all the elves of Cadhalash Thaig. They didn't want their neighbors, in this case Tevinter, from finding out. And then they erased it from the memories so they wouldn't even know they committed an atrocity of genocide and maintain the illusion that they're culturally superior to others. 

 

 

 

EDIT: I really suck at quotes in the new format.  >_<

 

DOUBLE EDIT: I bolded my responses since I can't seem to fix the quote tree. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 01 mars 2014 - 04:32 .

[renfrees]

And you know what, given that Tevinter engages in human sacrifice (and elf sacrifice), it could be taken that the Dalish had blood mages among their ranks.

Hmph, weren't elves the ones, who taught the founders of ancient Tevinter magic? I suppose that included blood magic.

[dragonflight288]

Hmph, weren't elves the ones, who taught the founders of ancient Tevinter magic? I suppose that included blood magic.

 

There's also lore that says they learned blood magic from the Old Gods. 

 

That bit of lore on where they learned blood magic isn't really clear. 

[renfrees]

There's also lore that says they learned blood magic from the Old Gods. 

 

That bit of lore on where they learned blood magic isn't really clear. 

I wonder if Audacity was bound with blood magic, as Merril referencing to the power of the seal. She also comments, that she doesn't know if Tevinter or Elvhen bound the demon, which means that in case of Elvhen they practiced blood magic.

[Dean_the_Young]

There are a couple of different versions, none particularly definitive.

 

Version one is that the Old Gods did it. This is more the Chantry line, as it goes on the fable about the Old Gods being sealed in the Earth, reaching out to the Tevinter Magisters through their dreams in the fade, and teaching them Blood Magic that made them powerful.

 

Version two is that demons did it. The Magisters, exploring the fade, made contact with powerful demons and made pacts to learn blood magic.

 

 

 

I can't find the source, so I may not be remembering correctly, but I thought there was a once-mentioned theory that the Tevinter learned magic from captured elves. This definitely isn't the main theory, and as I said I can't find the source.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Thalsian himself claimed that Dumat taught him Blood Magic. So I think the "Old Gods taught dreamers blood magic" theory is the most widely  accepted one in Thedas. It's also the only one mentioned in World of Thedas.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wonder if Audacity was bound with blood magic, as Merril referencing to the power of the seal. She also comments, that she doesn't know if Tevinter or Elvhen bound the demon, which means that in case of Elvhen they practiced blood magic.

Well Blood Magic is the most powerful kind of magic, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was used to make as powerful a seal as possible. Especially since I believe the Tevinter magisters use blood to control lesser demons. So with enough people using powerful blood magic, a Pride Demon could be sealed.

[MisterJB]

Leliana most certainly denies slavery exists in Orlais. Her argument is that, since elves are paid and free to choose to serve, then they are not slaves and she is correct. The elven Warden really has no argument; s/he just attempts to twist Leliana's words despite having never even see Orlais in the first place.

What Leliana acknowledges is that orlesians treat elves differently from humans; which occurs everywhere else in Thedas to a larger or smaller degree; but while orlesian society might be racist, that is not a synonim of "slavery."

[dragonflight288]

Leliana most certainly denies slavery exists in Orlais. Her argument is that, since elves are paid and free to choose to serve, then they are not slaves and she is correct. The elven Warden really has no argument; s/he just attempts to twist Leliana's words despite having never even see Orlais in the first place.

What Leliana acknowledges is that orlesians treat elves differently from humans; which occurs everywhere else in Thedas to a larger or smaller degree; but while orlesian society might be racist, that is not a synonim of "slavery."

 

And yet Orlais has indentured servants. Not slaves. 

 

Right.

 

Although you're right about what Leliana says. I just played through it again and realized I was wrong. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Leliana most certainly denies slavery exists in Orlais. Her argument is that, since elves are paid and free to choose to serve, then they are not slaves and she is correct. The elven Warden really has no argument; s/he just attempts to twist Leliana's words despite having never even see Orlais in the first place.

What Leliana acknowledges is that orlesians treat elves differently from humans; which occurs everywhere else in Thedas to a larger or smaller degree; but while orlesian society might be racist, that is not a synonim of "slavery."

 

Hmm the warden was talking this is different kind of slavery not that it is slavery technically aren't forced by law in practice they are forced to do because of social standarts something like in movie "the rundown" where peoples have work in hellish conditions not because law only because economy/sitiation forces them to do that. Same with elves in reality they don't have big alternative despite on technical level they are free on practical...