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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#2901
dragonflight288

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Hmm the warden was talking this is different kind of slavery not that it is slavery technically aren't forced by law in practice they are forced to do because of social standarts something like in movie "the rundown" where peoples have work in hellish conditions not because law only because economy/sitiation forces them to do that. Same with elves in reality they don't have big alternative despite on technical level they are free on practical...

 

Aside from the fact that I had to read that three times to get the meaning of it, I'm surprised that I actually agree with this. 



#2902
Heimdall

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Hmm the warden was talking this is different kind of slavery not that it is slavery technically aren't forced by law in practice they are forced to do because of social standarts something like in movie "the rundown" where peoples have work in hellish conditions not because law only because economy/sitiation forces them to do that. Same with elves in reality they don't have big alternative despite on technical level they are free on practical...

I wouldn't call it the same situation. Just because being a servant offers the best life for an elf (In terms of material comfort) does not mean they have no other options or that they are not free. By that logic, most people are slaves because they choose the job that improves their quality of life the most.

#2903
BlueMagitek

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No idea. I tried fixing it in an edit, and only made it worse.
 
True, but is far less justifiable if you didn't sell your cousin to Vaughn and took all the blame to turn yourself in before your conscription.
 
And that policy removes a great deal of the motive they would have to start a war with humans. No matter how the Chantry spins it, or what rumors persist about the Dalish, no one in the game has ever addressed this issue. Which leads me to believe that the Chantry either doesn't know and simply doesn't care to learn the elven perspective, or that information has been lost to time and the fires of the war.
 

Orais is most definitely racist, there is no doubt about it. They practice slavery like Tevinter does, but they call it a different name to make themselves feel better about it. Leliana and a Dalish warden can discuss it, and Leliana doesn't actually deny that elves are slaves, or that Val Reayeaux's alienage is considered the worst one in all of Thedas. The chantry actively teaches against anyone who is of a different belief is a heathen. And I don't see any reason why the Canticle of Shartan had to be removed from the Chant of Light after the war with the Dales. 

 

That's probably my biggest problem with the Chantry (and the dwarves memories) is that they pick and choose which scriptures they wish to believe in that matches their interpretations. If they really cared about the true word of the Maker, there wouldn't be Dissonant Verses like the Canticle of Shartan or Maferath. 

 

As for Orlais not caring? I don't see why they wouldn't care. After the war, the Chantry declared that elves had to convert and live in alienages, the canticle of shartan is removed from the Chant, and they completely destroy elven culture. If it were revealed that they did something reprehensible, they would lose legitimacy for these actions taken by them, and the Chantry founded by them. 

 

 

That's pretty weird.

 

Regardless of if you took all the blame, you are still the cause for (at the very least) the slaughter of a dozen + city guards.  If that was allowed, other elves might get the same idea.  They cannot punish the perpetrator directly because of Duncan, so they take it out on the rest of the oppressed (which they do even if they get to kill the CE).

 

The elven perspective, at this point, almost doesn't matter unless there are writings from that ten year period.  Their oral history is an awful source and would vary from storyteller to storyteller, and no one in Thedas cares.  The storytellers most likely wouldn't want to tell humans or city elves (much less be hospitable enough to allow them onto wherever the Dalish have parked), and no one has a long enough life to track down every Dalish tribe across Thedas.  And, even if someone managed to visit every storyteller & write a codex comparing the various themes and consistencies in the stories, it would almost certainly have been a Chantry Scholar (Brother/Sister), which would lead to "hurr, codex written by chantry, chantry bad, codex propaganda".  You know this to be true.

 

Indentured servitude is different; if the elves are never paid, never released from service after their contract is up, or put into a situation where they must immediately become another indentured servant, I would agree that is slavery.  I don't recall Leliana mentioning it.  Why would your Warden even talk to her?  She's a filthy shem.

 

The Canticle was removed because Shartan's descendants decided to drink the kool aid and go cray-cray.  I assume it wasn't restored because of Orlais; it would encourage regifting land to the broken elves, and when the Chantry had gone ahead and exerted its pressure to not have them all killed - you can only go so far.  Why it wasn't done afterwards?  Well, I imagine that the Dales were settled, so bringing it back would cause the same discussion here; the mass exodus of people to somewhere.  As for the Dissonant Verses, eh, it isn't like they're a secret; they're still taught and there's no gag order on them.  You can go up to random sisters on the street and talk to them about it, and they'd be more than happy to answer your questions.

 

Because no one cares at all about the elves except to get those filthy band of savages away from human lands.  You might find it reprehensible, but no one in Thedas would.  The worst that would happen would be some alienage riots need to be put down.  Which Ferelden has showed us is very, very easy. ~_^



#2904
dragonflight288

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I wouldn't call it the same situation. Just because being a servant offers the best life for an elf (In terms of material comfort) does not mean they have no other options or that they are not free. By that logic, most people are slaves because they choose the job that improves their quality of life the most.

 

Actually, the city-elf codex makes it clear that when elves leave the alienage, which they have the freedom to do, and start up businesses, which they have the freedom to do, racist humans react by burning down their homes and businesses and try to drive them back towards the alienage.

 

Elves are technically as free as humans, but the general racism of Andrastian societies force them in alienages or servant roles in practice. 

 

Tevinter practices slavery, but they also seem to not discriminate. I'm judging this on Origins where we are in the alienage. There's the elf in charge of the Tevinter forces before you face the magister.

 

The qunari don't care about your race, only if you convert and what your aptitudes are, and everyone is given a role, which they cannot leave, but some elves are placed over humans. 

 

It's countries where Orlais occupied or White Chantry-dominated lands that seem to have this discrimination. 



#2905
TheKomandorShepard

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I wouldn't call it the same situation. Just because being a servant offers the best life for an elf (In terms of material comfort) does not mean they have no other options or that they are not free. By that logic, most people are slaves because they choose the job that improves their quality of life the most.

 

Hm no because they have to live in alienage at least to survive and in reality they don't have other job because either it is forbidden like in some places they won't take evlen soldiers or it is simple society make it practically impossible to work in other places so either you have open own business in alienage or work as servant for nobles and even if you will try stand on your own society will make it impossible. So as well you would be robbed by local gang then that gang give you offer you do dirty work for money and then they will rob you again if you want walk away so you are for forced to work for them again. In real life your job in big way depends on you and society won't strip you from other possibilities at least how it works mostly in some societes. 



#2906
Heimdall

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Actually, the city-elf codex makes it clear that when elves leave the alienage, which they have the freedom to do, and start up businesses, which they have the freedom to do, racist humans react by burning down their homes and businesses and try to drive them back towards the alienage.
 
Elves are technically as free as humans, but the general racism of Andrastian societies force them in alienages or servant roles in practice. 
 
Tevinter practices slavery, but they also seem to not discriminate. I'm judging this on Origins where we are in the alienage. There's the elf in charge of the Tevinter forces before you face the magister.
 
The qunari don't care about your race, only if you convert and what your aptitudes are, and everyone is given a role, which they cannot leave, but some elves are placed over humans. 
 
It's countries where Orlais occupied or White Chantry-dominated lands that seem to have this discrimination.

I wasn't talking about elves starting their own businesses, I was talking about elves working for humans in Orlais. Racism has placed restrictions on what people can do in society for all time, but that doesn't make that person a slave. I'm working by the definition of a slave my college professor used. If it's not private property, it's not a slave. There are other forms of servitude, less absolute, but to use the term slave for those would only muddy the waters.

That woman was a slaver. By definition, she operates outside the Imperium and even if she did not, I doubt slavers rank very highly on Tevinter's social ladder. She's basically a mercenary. I would see her position as terribly indicative of anything. I don't see any basis for claiming no elven discrimination exists.

#2907
Heimdall

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Hm no because they have to live in alienage at least to survive and in reality they don't have other job because either it is forbidden like in some places they won't take evlen soldiers or it is simple society make it practically impossible to work in other places so either you have open own business in alienage or work as servant for nobles and even if you will try stand on your own society will make it impossible. So as well you would be robbed by local gang then that gang give you offer you do dirty work for money and then they will rob you again if you want walk away so you are for forced to work for them again. In real life your job in big way depends on you and society won't strip you from other possibilities at least how it works mostly in some societes.

And none of those things make you a slave.

#2908
TheKomandorShepard

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And none of those things make you a slave.

 

on technical level no in practical level yep because you are forced in practice...



#2909
Heimdall

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on technical level no in practical level yep because you are forced in practice...

Forced to do what? An elf that gets enough money can leave to a new city. Or seek employment inside or outside the alienage. Or open a business in the alienage. Or accept the risk and try their hand at a business outside the alienage. They can even farm if they can get the land.

They can make these choices. Just because its a difficult path fraught with danger does not deny their ability to try. A slave is beholden to their master and is only allowed what the master lets them have (Officially, slave resistance notwithstanding). Slavery is a relationship of absolute dominion. The life of a city elf is oppressed, but it is not that.

#2910
TheKomandorShepard

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Forced to do what? An elf that gets enough money can leave to a new city. Or seek employment inside or outside the alienage. Or open a business in the alienage. Or accept the risk and try their hand at a business outside the alienage.

They can make these choices. Just because its a difficult path fraught with danger does not deny their ability to try. A slave is beholden to their master and is only allowed what the master lets them have. Slavery is a relationship of absolute dominion. The life of a city elf is oppressed, but it is not that.

 

You are forced because society ruins every other option so perhaps on every door is plate "open" but in reality they closed and you end where you started or still work for nobles but that occasions that society provides you... 

 

you can try escape tevinter slavers but that doesn't make you free same with here either you are "servant" in tevinter because of law or "servant" in orlais because society tooks your other possibilities in practice... so as i said evles aren't salves on technical level as well weren't peoples in rundown but in practice...



#2911
BlueMagitek

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Actually, the City Elves also seem to do just fine in rural areas; the Mage Elf can claim to be from Lothering.



#2912
TheKomandorShepard

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Actually, the City Elves also seem to do just fine in rural areas; the Mage Elf can claim to be from Lothering.

 

And my amell warden could clam he is from denerim or highever despite he was from kirkwall... :P

Another matter that mage was taken to the circle ^_^



#2913
Heimdall

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You are forced because society ruins every other option so perhaps on every door is plate "open" but in reality they closed and you end where you started or still work for nobles but that occasions that society provides you... 
 
you can try escape tevinter slavers but that doesn't make you free same with here either you are "servant" in tevinter because of law or "servant" in orlais because society tooks your other possibilities in practice... so as i said evles aren't salves on technical level as well weren't peoples in rundown but in practice...

Except those possibilities are not closed to them, as I've been saying. Its difficult but far from impossible for an elf to make a living outside an alienage besides being a servant. It's not slavery, practical or technical.

#2914
Heimdall

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And my amell warden could clam he is from denerim or highever despite he was from kirkwall... :P
Another matter that mage was taken to the circle ^_^

The Amell Warden's family is from Kirkwall, but there's no reason they themselves couldn't have been from Denerim or Highever.

#2915
BlueMagitek

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And my amell warden could clam he is from denerim or highever despite he was from kirkwall... :P

Another matter that mage was taken to the circle ^_^

Families are allowed to scattered, you know.



#2916
TheKomandorShepard

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Except those possibilities are not closed to them, as I've been saying. Its difficult but far from impossible for an elf to make a living outside an alienage besides being a servant. It's not slavery, practical or technical.

 

 

 

Of course they are closed show me elf that got beyond alienage , servant or that just had to left society and join dales....

 

 

The Amell Warden's family is from Kirkwall, but there's no reason they themselves couldn't have been from Denerim or Highever.

 

Revka childrens were taken and it was scandal in kirkwall as her childrens were mages so they were rather taken from kirkwall...

Warden was rather lying than speaking truth because it is possible to say (if i renember correctly) as human noble that you are from denerim...



#2917
LobselVith8

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It's refreshing that BioWare even allows the player to be wrong.


Are you talking about the choice to commit genocide against an entire population for something they didn't do? Because the Chantry controlled Circles can be argued to be slavery, especially when templars have "dominion over mages by divine right". Simply because you don't agree doesn't make the viewpoint wrong.

#2918
MisterJB

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 "dominion over mages by divine right".

29ntkrb.jpg



#2919
LobselVith8

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Oolah! And multiple people believe the Elves practice human sacrifice. Who would have thought more than one person could fall for a hyperbolic falsehood?


Considering the Champion has become familiar with the Circle of Kirkwall for nearly a decade (and was raised by a former Circle mage), it's not an apt comparison.

So rumors can have some basis in reality, however distorted. Agreed.


Jumping from the Dalish following the Creators to committing human sacrifice because they don't follow the Maker? Seems more to me like intentional slander against followers of a foreign religion.

#2920
Heimdall

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Considering the Champion has become familiar with the Circle of Kirkwall for nearly a decade (and was raised by a former Circle mage), it's not an apt comparison.

Jumping from the Dalish following the Creators to committing human sacrifice because they don't follow the Maker? Seems more to me like intentional slander against followers of a foreign religion.

People don't need institutional help to come up with nasty rumors about their misanthropic neighbors.

#2921
Iron Fist

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So where are we at with this discussion?



#2922
LobselVith8

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Is lobsel still trying to use whatever the PC says as a fact? Because there is no chance at all that's it's just an opinion that the player can use to express their views. <_<


Your retort doesn't even remotely address what I said, or why I said it. I pointed out that Anders isn't the only one who views the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery; that's it. It's a view that's held by some characters in the narrative, including a version of the protagonist. Pointing out that Anders isn't the only one who holds this view is the crux of my statement.

As for the discussion about the nature of the Chantry controlled Circles, it's been discussed and debated time and again, but neither side reaches a consensus on the discussion. That's how the debates always end, of course.

Opinions that he agrees with = facts.


Based on the fact that I pointed out that Anders wasn't alone in his view of the Chantry controlled Circles?

We have multiple characters and even in-game authors who use such language, so I didn't see anything to suggest it's isolated to Anders alone. There's really no need to be snide with me about it.

#2923
Heimdall

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Of course they are closed show me elf that got beyond alienage , servant or that just had to left society and join dales....
 
Revka childrens were taken and it was scandal in kirkwall as her childrens were mages so they were rather taken from kirkwall...
Warden was rather lying than speaking truth because it is possible to say (if i renember correctly) as human noble that you are from denerim...

Its a choice to leave the cities and join the Dalish. I'm not saying there's a huge trend of elves not being servants and rising up in the world. No, they can't become nobles and not many can become merchants, though you will find a elven merchants in the seedier areas of Kirkwall. Most must seek employment as workers, perhaps as laborer, farmhands, we did encounter a Hunter in awakening. Frankly though, that makes them no different from the lot of most humans. How many peasants can just up and become merchants. They have the freedom to try, not a guarantee of success.

#2924
LobselVith8

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So where are we at with this discussion?


Discussing matters that neither side can agree on. As usual.
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#2925
Hellion Rex

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Discussing matters that neither side can agree on. As usual.

A pretty typical day on the BSN.

:P


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