'Many lived to tell the tale' doesn't mean they were mages. They could just as well be the remaining Templars in the Gallows courtyard, citizens of Kirkwall as well as Hawke's companions.
As i pointed above, presumably all other Circle mages is already killed by the time the Templars approach Gallows prison, thus effectively leaving (possibly) only Bethany alive, as Hawke's mages is an apostates.
This is blatantly wrong. Many mages get out alive (and even the ones who were blood mages are still guilty only of using it in self-defense, so they're still not evil).
Well, even if you side with the Templars and don't spare the mages, there are some mages who escape to spread word of the Kirkwall Incident.
But I have to admit, this thought has plagued my mind and resulted in a few siding with the Templar playthroughs in case it is right because then at least the Templars, who are just as innocent as the majority of the mages for the most part, are spared as many casualties.
The templars chose to follow an order to commit the Annulment. Not a single one of them is innocent.
I wonder how many hundred of people were killed by the demons and abominations the mages unleashed?
None. Practically all of them appeared spontaneously.
The templars chose to follow an order to commit the Annulment. Not a single one of them is innocent.
That's kind of like calling all soldiers on an army murderers because they fight in a war. While technically true in the sense that they killed other people, they were doing it in defense of those they are sworn to protect. You can't expect Templar #5 to know everything we do.
That's kind of calling all soldiers on an army murderers because they fight in a war. While technically true in the sense that they killed other people, they were doing it in defense of those they are sworn to protect.
Irrelevant. We've determined, I think, that genocide cannot be justified by the excuse of following orders.
Irrelevant. We've determined, I think, that genocide cannot be justified by the excuse of following orders.
Except it is more than just following orders in this case. Any Templar who was not with Meredith when Anders reveals himself is the culprit is simply told the Mages are responsible for the act, and thus to protect the city and possibly their families they must commit said atrocity. I think anyone in here would follow even those orders if they thought it meant ensuring their family's safety.
Except it is more than just following orders in this case. Any Templar who was not with Meredith when Anders reveals himself is the culprit is simply told the Mages are responsible for the act, and thus to protect the city and possibly their families they must commit said atrocity. I think anyone in here would follow even those orders if they thought it meant ensuring their family's safety.
Then "anyone" in such a case would be guilty of genocide again. Especially since Meredith never makes any secret of the fact that the Circle didn't blow up the Chantry, and that the demons are a much more immediate threat, as opposed to the mages who are currently just running scared (when we do see a group of regular templars speak about this, their justification is "the law is clear," not anything to do with the Chantry).
This is blatantly wrong. Many mages get out alive (and even the ones who were blood mages are still guilty only of using it in self-defense, so they're still not evil).
I've seen no evidence to your claims in my PTs. Care to elaborate?
I've seen no evidence to your claims in my PTs. Care to elaborate?
In context, it's blatantly obvious Varric is talking about surviving mages. As for self-defense, there are very few blood mages overall in a mage playthrough; not many are aggressively smashing everything in sight (I think there's only one who's attacking outright, and another two who'll attack you in a room somewhere, and they seem to be controlled by demons anyway).
In context, it's blatantly obvious Varric is talking about surviving mages. As for self-defense, there are very few blood mages overall in a mage playthrough; not many are aggressively smashing everything in sight (I think there's only one who's attacking outright, and another two who'll attack you in a room somewhere, and they seem to be controlled by demons anyway).
I always thought Varric was talking about overall survivors of Kirkwall's crisis, not deliberately mages. As for blood mages - you know, hordes of demons, shades and abominations you'd have to get through in both sidings, starting from Lowtown till Prison, doesn't exactly speak in the defense of mages.
Then "anyone" in such a case would be guilty of genocide again. Especially since Meredith never makes any secret of the fact that the Circle didn't blow up the Chantry, and that the demons are a much more immediate threat, as opposed to the mages who are currently just running scared (when we do see a group of regular templars speak about this, their justification is "the law is clear," not anything to do with the Chantry).
When did Meredith make it clear to her troops that the Circle was not to blame for the destruction of the Chantry? The squad with her when it happened sure, but the other dozens of squads would have no knowledge of that conversation.
I always thought Varric was talking about overall survivors of Kirkwall's crisis, not deliberately mages. As for blood mages - you know, hordes of demons, shades and abominations you'd have to get through in both sidings, starting from Lowtown till Prison, doesn't exactly speak in the defense of mages.
Well, according to the Wiki, "A number of mages escaped Kirwall and spread word of the slaughter to the other Circles of Thedas."
I always thought Varric was talking about overall survivors of Kirkwall's crisis, not deliberately mages. As for blood mages - you know, hordes of demons, shades and abominations you'd have to get through in both sidings, starting from Lowtown till Prison, doesn't exactly speak in the defense of mages.
"She had defended the mages against a brutal injustice, and many survived to tell the tale" is the exact line from Varric, so you've got no ground to stand on whatsoever for the notion that the subject "many" suddenly became something else within the course of a single short sentence. As for the demons, it's because the conflict tore the Veil to shreds; it was thin to begin with, and this newest wave of bloodshed was, well, the last straw. So now demons can cross over freely, which means... well, quite frankly I don't think anyone should live in Kirkwall anymore, but the point is that they all show up on their own, in the vast majority of cases, with no mages standing around.
When did Meredith make it clear to her troops that the Circle was not to blame for the destruction of the Chantry? The squad with her when it happened sure, but the other dozens of squads would have no knowledge of that conversation.
Ultimately not relevant. Aside from how impossible it would be that the Circle could do so, and the fact that Meredith's far too wrapped up in her own self-righteousness to feel the need to lie about anything, the Annulment itself is inherently horrible. Put the Circle on some kind of lockdown and investigate it if need be, but genocide is never good or justifiable.
Ultimately not relevant. Aside from how impossible it would be that the Circle could do so, and the fact that Meredith's far too wrapped up in her own self-righteousness to feel the need to lie about anything, the Annulment itself is inherently horrible. Put the Circle on some kind of lockdown and investigate it if need be, but genocide is never good or justifiable.
It is relevant, actually. She lies to her troops, yet how are they supposed to know it is a lie when they weren't there to see what actually happened. If you had no access to say the news, I could tell you that one country attacked another country and you have no reason to believe otherwise since you have no knowledge to counter that assertion. Now take that plus all you saw was the target of the attack be destroyed in the distance and the person telling you is your superior officer, and what do you expect the Templars to do?
As for the investigate part, the only problem is you can't tell if someone is possessed or not. A demon can lay dormant in a host for decades without revealing itself.
Overall, yes the Annulment of Kirkwall Circle is a terrible atrocity, but I don't hold the Templars who didn't know any better responsible for it. The one I hold responsible is the one who ordered it despite knowing the truth, and she gets her just desserts.
It is relevant, actually. She lies to her troops, yet how are they supposed to know it is a lie when they weren't there to see what actually happened. If you had no access to say the news, I could tell you that one country attacked another country and you have no reason to believe otherwise since you have no knowledge to counter that assertion. Now take that plus all you saw was the target of the attack be destroyed in the distance and the person telling you is your superior officer, and what do you expect the Templars to do?
As for the investigate part, the only problem is you can't tell if someone is possessed or not. A demon can lay dormant in a host for decades without revealing itself.
Overall, yes the Annulment of Kirkwall Circle is a terrible atrocity, but I don't hold the Templars who didn't know any better responsible for it. The one I hold responsible is the one who ordered it despite knowing the truth, and she gets her just desserts.
I'm almost positive that Meredith didn't lie. She doesn't see that she has any need to; everything she does is already right in her universe and the templars are her instruments of destruction. And what they should do is either relieve the nutbar of command, or defect and just try to protect the city as best they can from the demons.
On possession... firstly, no; has there ever been any indication that demons could do that? Demons aren't subtle, and their primary purpose for possessing people is to have fun, generally of the destructive kind. Additionally, unwilling demonic possessions, with the possible exception of shapeshifting pride demons, mutate mages into the bulging flesh sacks we usually see, so the vast majority won't be hidden. Even if there's some strange circumstance where there was a hidden one, all you have to do is hit them and they'll reflexively attack (and it's not just Anders who says so, it's demonstrated when Wilmod's demon completely blows its cover after being kneed by Cullen).
And Meredith might go down, but that's not enough. If I have my way, I'll try every single templar who participated as the Inquisitor. We need some kind of templar Nuremberg...
I'm almost positive that Meredith didn't lie. She doesn't see that she has any need to; everything she does is already right in her universe and the templars are her instruments of destruction. And what they should do is either relieve the nutbar of command, or defect and just try to protect the city as best they can from the demons.
On possession... firstly, no; has there ever been any indication that demons could do that? Demons aren't subtle, and their primary purpose for possessing people is to have fun, generally of the destructive kind. Additionally, unwilling demonic possessions, with the possible exception of shapeshifting pride demons, mutate mages into the bulging flesh sacks we usually see, so the vast majority won't be hidden. Even if there's some strange circumstance where there was a hidden one, all you have to do is hit them and they'll reflexively attack (and it's not just Anders who says so, it's demonstrated when Wilmod's demon completely blows its cover after being kneed by Cullen).
And Meredith might go down, but that's not enough. If I have my way, I'll try every single templar who participated as the Inquisitor. We need some kind of templar Nuremberg...
All Meredith has to say is "A Mage blew up the Chantry. We must annul the Circle." It's not a lie, yet it is not the truth. She just has to leave the fact it is an apostate mage out of it, and she has them. I'm sure Meredith made it much more eloquent than that, but that's the jist of it.
Umm, the Templars that were possessed show that they can hide. No Templar except Cullen suspected Weylon. Another example is if you let Kitty possess Amalia and her father has no idea. And the main reason for them possessing people is to experience our world and they, or at least the higher tier demons do, know that they can't do that when their puppet is killed. And a simple mage saying "I'll give anything, just save me" makes the possession willing. And Weylon's demon reacted because it thought Cullen was going to kill him, not just "Hey, you kicked me so you must die."
So you will mercilessly kill people because you see them as too dangerous and evil to live? Congratulations, you have reached the level of the people you so despise.
On possession... firstly, no; has there ever been any indication that demons could do that? Demons aren't subtle, and their primary purpose for possessing people is to have fun, generally of the destructive kind. Additionally, unwilling demonic possessions, with the possible exception of shapeshifting pride demons, mutate mages into the bulging flesh sacks we usually see, so the vast majority won't be hidden. Even if there's some strange circumstance where there was a hidden one, all you have to do is hit them and they'll reflexively attack (and it's not just Anders who says so, it's demonstrated when Wilmod's demon completely blows its cover after being kneed by Cullen).
Gaxkang seemed to have hidden well enough in the slums of Denerim in DAO and he's more or less outed in the codices as not only a demon but a really ancient one (according to myth, being one of the 5 that taught Tevinter blood magic). The cat in Wilhelm's home also seemed to hide her demonic nature.
Gaxkang seemed to have hidden well enough in the slums of Denerim in DAO and he's more or less outed in the codices as not only a demon but a really ancient one (according to myth, being one of the 5 that taught Tevinter blood magic). The cat in Wilhelm's home also seemed to hide her demonic nature.
I forgot about Gaxkang. And yeah, Kitty did a very good job considering the person she fools is either the host's father or daughter, who should know them better than anyone.
All Meredith has to say is "A Mage blew up the Chantry. We must annul the Circle." It's not a lie, yet it is not the truth. She just has to leave the fact it is an apostate mage out of it, and she has them. I'm sure Meredith made it much more eloquent than that, but that's the jist of it.
Umm, the Templars that were possessed show that they can hide. No Templar except Cullen suspected Weylon. Another example is if you let Kitty possess Amalia and her father has no idea. And the main reason for them possessing people is to experience our world and they, or at least the higher tier demons do, know that they can't do that when their puppet is killed. And a simple mage saying "I'll give anything, just save me" makes the possession willing. And Weylon's demon reacted because it thought Cullen was going to kill him, not just "Hey, you kicked me so you must die."
So you will mercilessly kill people because you see them as too dangerous and evil to live? Congratulations, you have reached the level of the people you so despise.
If that's what she's saying, they should clearly be asking more questions.
Any demons bound into templars were already being controlled by Tahrone, so they weren't exactly a shining example of typical demon possession where they just cross over. With Amalia, that particular demon only needs to say a few words to get past an unsuspecting regular person before running out into the world to wreak havoc. As for requests like that... Thrask's daughter Olivia actually made one just like that and still mutated, so even that doesn't seem to count, in addition to those mages who "accepted" Uldred's offer under torture, so I think it has to be an agreement not made under duress. Also, Anders is the one who confirms that abominations have an instant attack reflex if provoked.
And I didn't say I'd kill them, I said I'd try them.
Gaxkang seemed to have hidden well enough in the slums of Denerim in DAO and he's more or less outed in the codices as not only a demon but a really ancient one (according to myth, being one of the 5 that taught Tevinter blood magic). The cat in Wilhelm's home also seemed to hide her demonic nature.
Gaxkang was possessing a corpse and using some sort of magic to look human.
Irrelevant. We've determined, I think, that genocide cannot be justified by the excuse of following orders.
Are we considering the destruction of organized polities genocide? Because you've repeatedly advocated the total destruction of the Templars and killing all those who don't submit like the mages who can be spared in the Annulment.
The Annulment is a massacre, but it's not a massacre based on the composition of its group like an ethnic cleansing campaign. It's an attack instigated as a result of the politics and policies of a polity that is composed of a group, which is a different concern... and a principle you yourself have regularly pursued in regards to groups you find intolerable that are composed of a general population group.
Of course, Meredith's call and motivations for an annulment was wrong, but the Templars enacting it don't know. Ignorance is a defense in regards to accusations of motivation.
Gaxkang was possessing a corpse and using some sort of magic to look human.
So a demon in the real world could mask a corpse but not a living body? Is that what you're saying?
Are we considering the destruction of organized polities genocide? Because you've repeatedly advocated the total destruction of the Templars and killing all those who don't submit like the mages who can be spared in the Annulment.
The Annulment is a massacre, but it's not a massacre based on the composition of its group like an ethnic cleansing campaign. It's an attack instigated as a result of the politics and policies of a polity that is composed of a group, which is a different concern... and a principle you yourself have regularly pursued in regards to groups you find intolerable that are composed of a general population group.
Of course, Meredith's call and motivations for an annulment was wrong, but the Templars enacting it don't know. Ignorance is a defense in regards to accusations of motivation.
The templars are an army, and I'm fairly sure that no one will consider the forcible disarmament of hostile nations--namely, the destruction/dismantling of their armies--to be genocide.
The polity itself is based on a biological distinction, namely the presence of magic, as an organized group within the nation of Kirkwall, so I'm fairly certain it counts as genocide, yes. And the only reason politicide doesn't count as genocide is because the Soviets made a stink about it when the definition was being drafted, so they could continue their purges if need be. And my own goals have never been to kill all Orlesians or anything of the kind, just depower the nation enough to prevent it from being a major threat later on.
So a demon in the real world could mask a corpse but not a living body? Is that what you're saying?
Well, I don't think Gaxkang is a very good standard to measure other demons by, especially in the context of justification for mass murder.
If that's what she's saying, they should clearly be asking more questions.
Why should they doubt her? Magic has most definitely played a hand, chaos is already in the streets, and there are no other sources to counter any claims she makes.
It's a time-sensitive, immediate issue, there is limited information but none to contradict her, and what she claims can be plausible.
Any demons bound into templars were already being controlled by Tahrone, so they weren't exactly a shining example of typical demon possession where they just cross over. With Amalia, that particular demon only needs to say a few words to get past an unsuspecting regular person before running out into the world to wreak havoc. As for requests like that... Thrask's daughter Olivia actually made one just like that and still mutated, so even that doesn't seem to count, in addition to those mages who "accepted" Uldred's offer under torture, so I think it has to be an agreement not made under duress. Also, Anders is the one who confirms that abominations have an instant attack reflex if provoked.
...Xil, the entire points of Uldred and Olivia were that they were under duress when they made their deals. Desperation is completely valid grounds for a possession.
Anders is also not a routinely accurate authority on the topic of abominations either.
And I didn't say I'd kill them, I said I'd try them.
In the past you have said you would kill them. Sometimes you've conceeded you would convict them first.
Gaxkang was possessing a corpse and using some sort of magic to look human.
And?
Well, I don't think Gaxkang is a very good standard to measure other demons by, especially in the context of justification for mass murder.
True, Gaxkang like Xebenkeck are probaly very special cases. Though he and Kitty/Amalia does show us examples of mages that do not warp into monstrous beings. Depending on your mileage, Wynne and Anders may count as well. As might the Baroness. It just shows us examples of demons/spirits that succesfully hides that fact from their surroundings. Wilmod does too, until threatened. Uldred hid under a human face well enough too, until he decided he did not need it.
Which suggests that it is possible, even if not common.
However, I absolutely agree with your final statement. That demons might be capable of this is in no way an excuse for a RoA. The possibility of possession is not proof thereof.
Why should they doubt her? Magic has most definitely played a hand, chaos is already in the streets, and there are no other sources to counter any claims she makes.
It's a time-sensitive, immediate issue, there is limited information but none to contradict her, and what she claims can be plausible.
Because slaughtering hundreds of civilians without even knowing why or who precisely was responsible is utterly horrible?
...Xil, the entire points of Uldred and Olivia were that they were under duress when they made their deals. Desperation is completely valid grounds for a possession.
I know it is, but it doesn't seem to prevent you from mutating. Unless you're a pride abomination... sometimes.
Anders is also not a routinely accurate authority on the topic of abominations either.
Not necessarily, but we have two points of evidence.
In the past you have said you would kill them. Sometimes you've conceeded you would convict them first.
I've said things like "I would call them all to account," but never that I'd kill them out of hand when not in combat.
True, Gaxkang like Xebenkeck are probaly very special cases. Though he and Kitty/Amalia does show us examples of mages that do not warp into monstrous beings. Depending on your mileage, Wynne and Anders may count as well. As might the Baroness. It just shows us examples of demons/spirits that succesfully hides that fact from their surroundings. Weylon does too, until threatened. Uldred hid under a human face well enough too, until he decided he did not need it.
Which suggests that it is possible, even if not common.
However, I absolutely agree with your final statement. That demons might be capable of this is in no way an excuse for a RoA. The possibility of possession is not proof thereof.
His name's Wilmod, just so you know. And some demons can hide their faces, but far fewer can hide their behavior for any length of time. Even Gaxkang hid in a shack and seemed to kill most if not all of the people who came to him.
However, I absolutely agree with your final statement. That demons might be capable of this is in no way an excuse for a RoA. The possibility of possession is not proof thereof.
I agree on that. It is like wiping out a village because one villager may be an unidentified serial killer.
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