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[The Elder King]

Freedom is life's great lie.

The mages in Andrastian country should have no problem with staying in the Circles, by your logic.
And this doesn't explain how you think mages will come to rule countries and the mundanes will be fine with it.

[renfrees]

It would be simpler and cheaper if mages become a government and ruled mundanes with an iron fist in a velvet glove. We don't need excesses like in Tevinter, it means no blood magic(only to repel darkspawn), no sacrifices, no slavery. 

And how do you prevent another Tevinter - by the sheer will alone? How do you prevent the abuse of power by the people, who already have power? How do you prevent them from using it for political means? Do you think humanity is noble in itself? Wake up and take off pink glasses.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Even if the Circles get some form of self-autonomy, they will be under control of the Chantry or Inqiusition.

 

Besides, Bioware should be bold and show us templar butchering of mages, children included. Even if it's just results and some bodies like they did in the Human Noble Origin. By the way Obsidian had shown how Legionnaires raped female Rangers of NCR in FNV, Bioware could do teh same with templars and female mages.

They didn't actually "show" it in FNV, and it was a Raider who raped the NCR sniper. The rest of the rape cases were ambient dialogue as I recall.

 

And why so specific? Why only show Templars commiting atrocities? That wouldn't be BioWare being bold. That would be BioWare playing favorites, trying to force players to side with the mages. What BioWare should do, is stop listening to fans who wants their side glorified, and then actually show the atrocities commited by BOTH sides.

[The Elder King]

And why so specific? Why only show Templars commiting atrocities? That wouldn't be BioWare being bold. That would be BioWare playing favorites, trying to force players to side with the mages. What BioWare should do, is stop listening to fans who wants their side glorified, and then actually show the atrocities commited by BOTH sides.

This.
I still hope they'll do it, though I think they might use the Re Templars/Tevinter faction for this.

[Hellion Rex]

And why so specific? Why only show Templars commiting atrocities? That wouldn't be BioWare being bold. That would be BioWare playing favorites, trying to force players to side with the mages. What BioWare should do, is stop listening to fans who wants their side glorified, and then actually show the atrocities commited by BOTH sides.

Ahem. While it is still uneven, I do think that they did better in DA2, in that regard. Orsino, Tarohne, Grace, the metric crap ton of blood mages in Kirkwall, as well as many Tevinter slavers.

[Hellion Rex]

This.
I still hope they'll do it, though I think they might use the Re Templars/Tevinter faction for this.

For the Reds, I do hope they have a really good story line. Particularly one that is ultimately tragic.

[Xilizhra]

They didn't actually "show" it in FNV, and it was a Raider who raped the NCR sniper. The rest of the rape cases were ambient dialogue as I recall.

 

And why so specific? Why only show Templars commiting atrocities? That wouldn't be BioWare being bold. That would be BioWare playing favorites, trying to force players to side with the mages. What BioWare should do, is stop listening to fans who wants their side glorified, and then actually show the atrocities commited by BOTH sides.

To get a truly even look, then, they'd have to go back a hell of a long time to show all the atrocities of the templars that have led to this point, to give full context.

[The Elder King]

For the Reds, I do hope they have a really good story line. Particularly one that is ultimately tragic.

I hope so too.

[wcholcombe]

To get a truly even look, then, they'd have to go back a hell of a long time to show all the atrocities of the templars that have led to this point, to give full context.

Ok, and at the same time are they going to give us a replay of EVERY mage who has used their power to become abusive, abused blood magic, or decided to be possessed by a demon and become and inside out human suit that butchers and destroys everything it encounters.

 

Here is my issue with you Xil, they could come in with a reformed templars that functions as it should in regards to mages and you wouldn't care.  Both sides have a mountain of bodies stacked against them.  You can't say the templars are any more guilty than the mages.  They both operate largely out of fear or a desire for power over others when they abuse their positions.  A templar who uneccessarily kills a mage is no more or no less guilty than a non possessed mage who does a similar act.  The fact that one of them is a mage and the other isn't has no bearing on the argument.

 

The issue becomes more clouded when you consider the pure scope of the damage that one rogue mage/abomination can accomplish compared to a slew of templars.  Personally, the Templars need to do a far better job of policing themselves and the mages need to be more understanding of the position they occupy within regards to the world of thedas.  Guess what, they aren't normal people who get to have normal lives.  They have the ability to shape the world with their minds, and that comes with a price.  Is it fair?  No.  But I doubt the peasant who gets run over by a chevalier because he happens to be in the wrong place a the wrong time is really all that sympathetic to the poor mage.  Or the ones starving to death in the winter while the poor mages are secluded in their warm towers feel that sorry for the mage either.

 

The issues largely arise from the plot line bioware chose to pursue in DA2.  Independent of that lunacy, any normal game would have had a method for playing the hero and addressing the issues on both sides of the divide.  You could have brought templars to justice, you could have weeded out blood mages in the circle, you could have put both orsino and meredith's heads on pikes without the overall body count.  And you could have saved Hawke's mother and had the option to remove Ander's head from his shoulders before he blew up Elthena.  But that wasn't the story Bioware was wanting to tell so here we are.

 

I would call both sides idiots for how they reacted in Asunder, but I guess by that point the horse was out of the barn and it would have taken actual reasonable people to fix the problem, not dogmatic my way or the highway spoiled brats.

[Star fury]

The mages in Andrastian country should have no problem with staying in the Circles, by your logic.
And this doesn't explain how you think mages will come to rule countries and the mundanes will be fine with it.

If mages couldn't rebel. then they deserved it.

 

 

And how do you prevent another Tevinter - by the sheer will alone? How do you prevent the abuse of power by the people, who already have power? How do you prevent them from using it for political means? Do you think humanity is noble in itself? Wake up and take off pink glasses.

Because they will have the very example of Tevinter in front of them? How hated magocracy was almost destroyed by Andraste and had to endure several Exalted Marches. Mages can even have a mundane as a puppet king while having a real power behind the scenes.

 

 

They didn't actually "show" it in FNV, and it was a Raider who raped the NCR sniper. The rest of the rape cases were ambient dialogue as I recall.

 

And why so specific? Why only show Templars commiting atrocities? That wouldn't be BioWare being bold. That would be BioWare playing favorites, trying to force players to side with the mages. What BioWare should do, is stop listening to fans who wants their side glorified, and then actually show the atrocities commited by BOTH sides.

Obsidian showed a destroyed Ranger station with a raped female Ranger and signs that it was committed by Legionnaires.

 

Because mages were at templar mercy for centuries. And that Annulment is a dirty business.

[The Elder King]

If mages couldn't rebel. then they deserved it.

And by this logic, mundanes could rebel/be against a magocracy and successfully beating it, meaning that they don't deserve to be under mages. And I don't see how rebelling means that they should create a magocracy.
Again, you haven't shown how mages can install a magocracy.

[Xilizhra]

Ok, and at the same time are they going to give us a replay of EVERY mage who has used their power to become abusive, abused blood magic, or decided to be possessed by a demon and become and inside out human suit that butchers and destroys everything it encounters.

 

Here is my issue with you Xil, they could come in with a reformed templars that functions as it should in regards to mages and you wouldn't care.  Both sides have a mountain of bodies stacked against them.  You can't say the templars are any more guilty than the mages.  They both operate largely out of fear or a desire for power over others when they abuse their positions.  A templar who uneccessarily kills a mage is no more or no less guilty than a non possessed mage who does a similar act.  The fact that one of them is a mage and the other isn't has no bearing on the argument.

 

The issue becomes more clouded when you consider the pure scope of the damage that one rogue mage/abomination can accomplish compared to a slew of templars.  Personally, the Templars need to do a far better job of policing themselves and the mages need to be more understanding of the position they occupy within regards to the world of thedas.  Guess what, they aren't normal people who get to have normal lives.  They have the ability to shape the world with their minds, and that comes with a price.  Is it fair?  No.  But I doubt the peasant who gets run over by a chevalier because he happens to be in the wrong place a the wrong time is really all that sympathetic to the poor mage.  Or the ones starving to death in the winter while the poor mages are secluded in their warm towers feel that sorry for the mage either.

 

The issues largely arise from the plot line bioware chose to pursue in DA2.  Independent of that lunacy, any normal game would have had a method for playing the hero and addressing the issues on both sides of the divide.  You could have brought templars to justice, you could have weeded out blood mages in the circle, you could have put both orsino and meredith's heads on pikes without the overall body count.  And you could have saved Hawke's mother and had the option to remove Ander's head from his shoulders before he blew up Elthena.  But that wasn't the story Bioware was wanting to tell so here we are.

 

I would call both sides idiots for how they reacted in Asunder, but I guess by that point the horse was out of the barn and it would have taken actual reasonable people to fix the problem, not dogmatic my way or the highway spoiled brats.

I prefer the way DA2 did it. It was an interesting change, and I don't want standards of heroism to demand that I take out blood mages for trying to protect themselves.

 

Mages, as I see them, are like people with potentially contagious diseases; they should be monitored, for their own safety and that of others (because of the demon thing), but still treated as, you know, people, and given fair representation and such.

[Iakus]

Ahem. While it is still uneven, I do think that they did better in DA2, in that regard. Orsino, Tarohne, Grace, the metric crap ton of blood mages in Kirkwall, as well as many Tevinter slavers.

 

If anything, DA2 went overboard in showing how horrible both sides were.  There's very few characters on either side that came across as particularly sympathetic.

[wcholcombe]

I prefer the way DA2 did it. It was an interesting change, and I don't want standards of heroism to demand that I take out blood mages for trying to protect themselves.

 

Mages, as I see them, are like people with potentially contagious diseases; they should be monitored, for their own safety and that of others (because of the demon thing), but still treated as, you know, people, and given fair representation and such.

Well, that is actually a statement I can agree with mostly, though I figure our ideas of monitored are two different ideas.

 

I didn't say I didn't like DA2s method, it was a good way to tell the story that they wanted to tell.  However, not surprisingly we differ in regards to the blood mages.  I don't think all blood mages were practicing blood magic to protect themselves, in fact most of them weren't until the templar mage fight at the end.  Quentin certainly wasn't, nor were most of the random blood mages in hiding you encountered.  Considering no one in your group was a templar, they actuallly had no reason to employ blood magic against you, except that they were blood mages.

[wcholcombe]

If anything, DA2 went overboard in showing how horrible both sides were.  There's very few characters on either side that came across as particularly sympathetic.

Agreed, the only redeeming characters in DA2 get driven mad by an idol-Varics brother, blown up-Elthina, or turned into the bride of frankenstien-your mother.

 

I would be curious how it all came about.  I don't think they originally intended to make the Templars quite as ludicrously horrible as they did, but I think when they went to the lengths they did with the mages, and I still think they did a poor job of showing the dangers of mages, they had to go over the top with templars or it wouldn't work.

[Xilizhra]

If anything, DA2 went overboard in showing how horrible both sides were.  There's very few characters on either side that came across as particularly sympathetic.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Even on the templar side, Meredith's insanity earns some sympathy points, as she was clearly cracked by what happened to her sister.

 

 

Well, that is actually a statement I can agree with mostly, though I figure our ideas of monitored are two different ideas.

 

I didn't say I didn't like DA2s method, it was a good way to tell the story that they wanted to tell.  However, not surprisingly we differ in regards to the blood mages.  I don't think all blood mages were practicing blood magic to protect themselves, in fact most of them weren't until the templar mage fight at the end.  Quentin certainly wasn't, nor were most of the random blood mages in hiding you encountered.  Considering no one in your group was a templar, they actuallly had no reason to employ blood magic against you, except that they were blood mages.

Those are the ones being referred to in the context of the Annulment. Although it's an inexcusable atrocity to side with the templars in any case.

[renfrees]

Because they will have the very example of Tevinter in front of them? How hated magocracy was almost destroyed by Andraste and had to endure several Exalted Marches. Mages can even have a mundane as a puppet king while having a real power behind the scenes.

And what is the example of Tevinter to mages? Last i recalled, they borderline adore it, including freedom-fighter Anders. And Imperium wasn't nearly destroyed by Andraste, far from it.

And so you are already planning on using magic to gain power? So much for "mages should be free". Guess what - that's exactly why they shouldn't, not absolutely at least. Power corrupts, and magic is power.

[Hellion Rex]

If anything, DA2 went overboard in showing how horrible both sides were.  There's very few characters on either side that came across as particularly sympathetic.

I disagree. Even though DA2 did indeed show many extremes, I still found characters on both sides of the equation to be very sympathetic, regardless of allegiance.

[dragonflight288]

I haven't played that game, so I can't comment.

 

 

How so?

 

1. You should play the game. It does a good job going over the arrogance of the Jedi, how they feel they are so right about certain issues regarding the protagonist (I won't spoil anything) and ultimately, how wrong they can be but won't admit it.

 

The handmaidens pretty much were brought in to watch the jedi and look for signs of Jedi falling to the darkside. I guess you could say that they are the KOTOR equivalent of templars. They are trained to resist the Force and mind tricks, they train constantly in combat as well so they can be a match for the Jedi. But they were founded by a Jedi, one of the last of them, and constantly look to her for guidance on how they should perform their duties. 

 

It became a "who watches the watchmen" sort of deal, where they are meant to watch Jedi, but are in turn watched over and guided by a Jedi. They were so close to her that they coudn't see Jedi Master Atris was falling to the darkside, and without realzing it, became servants of a wannabe Sith-but-not-quite-one.

 

2. Well, you are relying on the good will of the Chantry and the templars to simply let the matter be. Essentially you are asking people who are terrified of the rise of another Tevinter to simply leave the mages alone and hope they take care of things on their own. And even if that works for a hundred or two hundred years, it is inevitable that one of the bad eggs will rise through the ranks, become a First Enchanter, and he can work within the system and cause problems. And many within the system may end up like the Handmaidens. So close to the issue that they actually can't see the problem as it develops.

 

Then you also have issues of logistics. Let's imagine that the templars left the Circle and simply stood guard outside the Circle to contain any abominations from coming out that may develop, or to keep mages from running away unless they're fully trained and on official Circle business. What's stopping these templars from simply setting up a blockade and keeping the Circle from getting any supplies at all? Unless they're growing their own food, mining and processing lyrium themselves, and growing cotton or grazing sheep to make clothes, they'll be in a very bad position. 

 

And a corrupt templar, should one be in charge, is told to simply sod off and stay around the Circle but not a part of it may simply do that out of spite and say he's 'inspecting goods' to make sure it isn't dangerous. 

 

Then there's enchanting services. How would the Circle set up their main source of wealth? Would people have to come to the Circle's? Would the circle's send out those trained in enchanting? And considering the danger of lyrium, you may need some tranquil to handle that responsibility.

[Iakus]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Even on the templar side, Meredith's insanity earns some sympathy points, as she was clearly cracked by what happened to her sister.

 

 

Those are the ones being referred to in the context of the Annulment. Although it's an inexcusable atrocity to side with the templars in any case.

 

Yes, Meredith does have a sad story behind her actions.  But it's an aspect of her you don't get to hear unless you make a particular choice at the start of Act 3.  I didn't find it myself until my third playthru. 

 

There's a couple of other hidden details, such as Bethany's codex entry if she joins the Circle that indicate that many, even most templars are just regular men and women trying to do what they think is right and don't particularly hate mages.  But which templars are the ones that get remembered?  Ser Alric?  Ser Conrad Vernhart?  Idol-crazed Meredith?  Cullen is pretty much the closest thing to a sympathetic templar in Kirkwall (aside from terminally stupid Karas, perhaps)

[Sir JK]

I disagree. Even though DA2 did indeed show many extremes, I still found characters on both sides of the equation to be very sympathetic, regardless of allegiance.

 

I agree with this sentiment. I also liked many of the unsympathetic ones: Petrice and Meredith in particular, but I also like, even if I am alone in it, Grace.

[The Elder King]

And what is the example of Tevinter to mages? Last i recalled, they borderline adore it, including freedom-fighter Anders. And Imperium wasn't nearly destroyed by Andraste, far from it.
And so you are already planning on using magic to gain power? So much for "mages should be free". Guess what - that's exactly why they shouldn't, not absolutely at least. Power corrupts, and magic is power.

We have no idea if majority of mages in the Circles 'borderline adore it'. If anything, the adoring fans might be the minority, since together Aequitarians and Loyalist are more than Libertarians (and not every Libertarian has to adore Tevinter).

[Hellion Rex]

I agree with this sentiment. I also liked many of the unsympathetic ones: Petrice and Meredith in particular, but I also like, even if I am alone in it, Grace.

Petrice...you liked Petrice?

[Xilizhra]

2. Well, you are relying on the good will of the Chantry and the templars to simply let the matter be. Essentially you are asking people who are terrified of the rise of another Tevinter to simply leave the mages alone and hope they take care of things on their own. And even if that works for a hundred or two hundred years, it is inevitable that one of the bad eggs will rise through the ranks, become a First Enchanter, and he can work within the system and cause problems. And many within the system may end up like the Handmaidens. So close to the issue that they actually can't see the problem as it develops.

That's why I would still have oversight systems in place; the mere fact that mages could be in the oversight doesn't mean they'd be connected to that Circle or its internal problems, and just being a mage wouldn't make them more susceptible to ignoring them (at least if said problems aren't being enforced by a magophobic religious organization).

 

Then you also have issues of logistics. Let's imagine that the templars left the Circle and simply stood guard outside the Circle to contain any abominations from coming out that may develop, or to keep mages from running away unless they're fully trained and on official Circle business. What's stopping these templars from simply setting up a blockade and keeping the Circle from getting any supplies at all? Unless they're growing their own food, mining and processing lyrium themselves, and growing cotton or grazing sheep to make clothes, they'll be in a very bad position.

Given higher ground and windows, the mages could probably blow them away with fireballs and other projectiles while the templars were unable to get through the locked main door. But, as I said, there will still be some oversight system.

 

Then there's enchanting services. How would the Circle set up their main source of wealth? Would people have to come to the Circle's? Would the circle's send out those trained in enchanting? And considering the danger of lyrium, you may need some tranquil to handle that responsibility.

One of my ideas was to set up villages around the Circles where nonmage family members could live, and perhaps towns could expand. I also had the idea, as you may recall, of recruiting and teaching casteless dwarves to serve as replacements for Tranquil.

 

There's a couple of other hidden details, such as Bethany's codex entry if she joins the Circle that indicate that many, even most templars are just regular men and women trying to do what they think is right and don't particularly hate mages.  But which templars are the ones that get remembered?  Ser Alric?  Ser Conrad Vernhart?  Idol-crazed Meredith?  Cullen is pretty much the closest thing to a sympathetic templar in Kirkwall (aside from terminally stupid Karas, perhaps)

Well, those ordinary men and women are, in bulk, the most dangerous part of the templars. I don't care as much about incidental abuses as I do institutional. And given that Karras was the muttonchopped rapist, I don't think he'd really qualify as "sympathetic..."

[renfrees]

Petrice...you liked Petrice?

I always wanted to side with Petrice to see how it plays out, but always ended up respecting Arishok too much to actually do it