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[LobselVith8]

Thrask proved exceedingly foolish in the end. It wasn't just trusting Grace. Based on the followers of his that we fight and Samson's comments and the what happened to his kidnapping victim, he was openly allying with blood mages and demon summoners. That's not only asking for trouble that's betraying the purpose of being a Templar. But while his methods were idiotic, his motives were in the right place. And he does see the problems with Meredith's policies more clearly than any other templar. He just became too focused on stopping her to the exclusion of all other duties.

 

In a sense, he's like the reverse-Meredith. A templar's dual role is to both guard and protect mages. And they each seemed to (mostly) forget to properly do half of their job.

 

Some Grey Wardens are blood mages. Apostates like Merrill are blood mages. Your statement makes it sound as though blood mages are merely villains, and I don't think that's the case. As for Samson, he sold out Thrask and the rebellion for his own benefit. There was a great story here that could have been explored.

 

I'm also not going to throw Thrask under the bus for the kidnapping plot because it was asinine, and frankly, nonsensical. It's another example of the plot being imposed on the narrative, even if it makes absolutely no sense. If my Champion publicly denounced Meredith and was willing to kill templars to protect mages (like Grace and the Starkhaven mages), why would Thrask distrust me? Thrask had so much potential, and was wasted.

[KaiserShep]

Thrask was naive idiot and he paid price for being one better be paranoid and safe than trusting and dead... haha pretty much thrask sums up what are consequences of trusting mages.Lambert knew it when others around like divine don't.

 

Thrask acted very foolishly, but he was not paranoid. He was absolutely right about Meredith. She was greatly overstepping her bounds as Knight-Commander. Her role is strictly is to protect the Circle as well as protect others from the mages, not assume the role of Viscount, which she was pretty much doing. They were even trying to absorb the city guard, evident from their trying to put a templar in the position of Captain of the guard, or dissolve the title entirely. Thrask was, however, pro-circle and did not want the mages to be free. He just wanted reformation for a system that has worked for a very long time.

 

As for blood mages, as a templar, Thrask should have avoided anything involving blood magic in the first place, simply as a precaution. Merrill might be an exception of a blood mage who is largely benign, but Hawke is not part of some order tasked with policing mages either. Thrask is in a far more precarious position, and should have kept far away from that practice as he could if he wanted to do anything properly.

[wcholcombe]

And the templars were gearing up to fight her. They almost certainly tried to have her assassinated at one point, and Lambert was able to force her to deny many necessary concessions to the mages; she was wholly unable to shut down Lambert, despite him being her nominal subordinate. He had the same power encroachment issues as Meredith and much less insanity to get in the way. There's no realistic way peace could have been achieved at this time; sometimes there's no way to avoid bloodshed and it's best to just get it out of the way as soon as possible.

That is a truly sad way to look at life.  I am sorry, but if the mages had played ball, Justina would have shut Lambert down.  Lambert hadn't forced her to deny any concessions to the mages.  He had only asked that the meeting happen in Orlais, which worked for the Divine to be able to affect events around it anyway.  Adrian and the Archmages actions prevented this.

[Xilizhra]

No, but framing your ex for murder to manipulate the situation and than also refusing to play ball when the divine is moving towards addressing issues is.  Also, it hasn't been a millennia of servitude.  All lore about the tower and its history indicates that the Templars/Mages had a very cooperative relationship until recently.  Both in game lore, novels, and WoT indicate this.

Firstly, you're misusing "both." Second, if the mage leadership really has been so happy to throw so many of its people beneath the templars' boots for so long, I'm glad that there's clearly been a change.

 

That is a truly sad way to look at life.  I am sorry, but if the mages had played ball, Justina would have shut Lambert down.  Lambert hadn't forced her to deny any concessions to the mages.  He had only asked that the meeting happen in Orlais, which worked for the Divine to be able to affect events around it anyway.  Adrian and the Archmages actions prevented this.

She did not shoot Lambert down, she let Lambert walk over her to re-Tranquilize Pharamond. And Justinia wanted to maintain the Chantry's iron grip on the mages anyway, just with a few specifics toned down; she'd never have let them have actual freedom or representation.

[LobselVith8]

Wynne has come back to life once already at least in game?  Is it beyond the realm of possiblity that said spirit brought her back after you kill her?  And again as I said, I doubt Wynne being alive for Asunder is a key cog to the game events anyway.

 

Wynne doesn't come back, though. That's the issue. The only character who resurrects from the dead is Leliana, and we have been told there's a reason for that. In the situations where the narrative would differ based on our choices (like leaving Sten behind in Lothering or killing Wynne), the developers said things would be slightly different in those cases; basically, the novels and comics follow a certain continuity, but not one that's going to be imposed on everyone.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Thrask acted very foolishly, but he was not paranoid. He was absolutely right about Meredith. She was greatly overstepping her bounds as Knight-Commander. Her role is strictly is to protect the Circle as well as protect others from the mages, not assume the role of Viscount, which she was pretty much doing. They were even trying to absorb the city guard, evident from their trying to put a templar in the position of Captain of the guard, or dissolve the title entirely. Thrask was, however, pro-circle and did not want the mages to be free. He just wanted reformation for a system that has worked for a very long time.

 

Protect mages is nothing than rule in codex but for real it is naive to belive in that rule because it is there to look pretty like blood magic in tevinter or game in orlais i can bet that law forbids that officially but it isn't treated seriously it is there just to look pretty.

 

I didn't say thrask was paranoid only true templars is doing his job should be thrask was opposite so he died because of it.

 

No they said system worked but it never did and numbers of disasters caused by mages even by that 3 years only in 1 country and 1 city speaks enough about it mages are not happy with circles and no one sane would be neither templars are happy because they can't do they job because their methods are too ineffective and soft. Thrask died for being naive idealist trying to make world better for everyone but it will never be in case someone have to suffer to one or many could be happy thats how world works.

[wcholcombe]

 

Firstly, you're misusing "both." Second, if the mage leadership really has been so happy to throw so many of its people beneath the templars' boots for so long, I'm glad that there's clearly been a change.

 

 

She did not shoot Lambert down, she let Lambert walk over her to re-Tranquilize Pharamond. And Justinia wanted to maintain the Chantry's iron grip on the mages anyway, just with a few specifics toned down; she'd never have let them have actual freedom or representation.

 

Again Xil, cooperation doesn't mean under the templars boots.  Also, guess what, in the end I predict the mages will once again be under someones control.  Thedas isn't going to exist with free mages skipping through the daisies and doing whatever they want. The danger to the general public and to the mages is too great.

 

She did shoot him down btw, he didn't even want to let the college meet, nor did he want pharamond saved, he wanted him killed and no mention of this made.  It takes steps to create great change.  Showing the failure of tranquility would have further eroded Lamberts power base and shown the greater need for changes and reforms.

[LobselVith8]

No, but framing your ex for murder to manipulate the situation and than also refusing to play ball when the divine is moving towards addressing issues is.  Also, it hasn't been a millennia of servitude.  All lore about the tower and its history indicates that the Templars/Mages had a very cooperative relationship until recently.  Both in game lore, novels, and WoT indicate this.

 

The Circle Towers were established when mages held a peaceful protest about their lack of rights, and Divine Ambrosia II contemplated an Exalted March on her own cathedral. The move to Circle Towers was an alternative. And considering the long history of the Right of Annulment, apostates, mages who fled the Andrastian kingdoms for a better opportunity in Tevinter during the Exalted March against the "heathens of the Imperium", it isn't accurate to say that problems only arose recently with the Chantry controlled Circle. Even Aldenon the Wise (the co-founder of Ferelden) fought a rebellion against the templars to prevent the Chantry controlled Circle being imposed on the mages in the nation he was building with Calenhad.

[wcholcombe]

Wynne doesn't come back, though. That's the issue. The only character who resurrects from the dead is Leliana, and we have been told there's a reason for that. In the situations where the narrative would differ based on our choices (like leaving Sten behind in Lothering or killing Wynne), the developers said things would be slightly different in those cases; basically, the novels and comics follow a certain continuity, but not one that's going to be imposed on everyone.

Read where I said I don't think it really matters if Wynne lived or not.  Just saying unless we saw her body burn, I wouldn't rule out the spirit bringing her back after we walk off.  Not saying it did.

[Xilizhra]

Again Xil, cooperation doesn't mean under the templars boots.  Also, guess what, in the end I predict the mages will once again be under someones control.  Thedas isn't going to exist with free mages skipping through the daisies and doing whatever they want. The danger to the general public and to the mages is too great.

 

She did shoot him down btw, he didn't even want to let the college meet, nor did he want pharamond saved, he wanted him killed and no mention of this made.  It takes steps to create great change.  Showing the failure of tranquility would have further eroded Lamberts power base and shown the greater need for changes and reforms.

If Justinia had continued on this course, Lambert would have killed her. It's strongly implied that he tried once already and nearly succeeded. And once he did, the fact that many of Justinia's policies were unpopular would practically ensure that a more tractable Divine would be appointed next.

 

Peace with the templars is simply not possible, not while they still have any hold on power.

[EmissaryofLies]

It would be if templars focused on 1 goal and make it properly instead on 2 and make that two aspect bad...

simple circle is half-measure neither it gives mages satisfaction (well i wouldn't be in their skin as well) and non-mage safety... 

 

War is because simple solution is bad mages are unhappy because they don't have freedom because circles don't give them that and niether templars are who have to protect world when it comes about magic dangers.To get what one side want they need take what second want and middle road don't give anything everyone loses...

 

Thrask has the right idea, just terrible execution as others have said. You're  right about both sides being fundamentally opposed and thus making a middle ground extremely difficult to bring to light. 

 

The problem is that the mages aren't going back to their circles and the Templars will not stop until they do. 

 

If only one side gets what it wants, you'll be locked in the cycle forever and nothing will have changed i.e. Mages rule, Mundanes rule, Mages rule, Mundanes rule ad infinitum. 

 

Mages and Templars have to find a middle ground or the fighting between them will never end. And it is only a matter of time before another nation takes advantage of the situation.

[Xilizhra]

Thrask has the right idea, just terrible execution as others have said. You're  right about both sides being fundamentally opposed and thus making a middle ground extremely difficult to bring to light. 

 

The problem is that the mages aren't going back to their circles and the Templars will not stop until they do. 

 

If only one side gets what it wants, you'll be locked in the cycle forever and nothing will have changed i.e. Mages rule, Mundanes rule, Mages rule, Mundanes rule ad infinitum. 

 

Mages and Templars have to find a middle ground or the fighting between them will never end. And it is only a matter of time before another nation takes advantage of the situation.

There can be a middle ground between mages and nonmages while the templars are ash on the wind.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Some Grey Wardens are blood mages. Apostates like Merrill are blood mages. Your statement makes it sound as though blood mages are merely villains, and I don't think that's the case. As for Samson, he sold out Thrask and the rebellion for his own benefit. There was a great story here that could have been explored.

 

I'm also not going to throw Thrask under the bus for the kidnapping plot because it was asinine, and frankly, nonsensical. It's another example of the plot being imposed on the narrative, even if it makes absolutely no sense. If my Champion publicly denounced Meredith and was willing to kill templars to protect mages (like Grace and the Starkhaven mages), why would Thrask distrust me? Thrask had so much potential, and was wasted

 

First, Neither Merrill nor Grey Warden blood mages or Alain make me think it's a wise policy to regularly be allowed to use blood magic.

 

Second, the kidnapping is still what happened. That's part of the story of his character.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There can be a middle ground between mages and nonmages while the templars are ash on the wind.

With that kind of thinking, peace will never come.

[wcholcombe]

The Circle Towers were established when mages held a peaceful protest about their lack of rights, and Divine Ambrosia II contemplated an Exalted March on her own cathedral. The move to Circle Towers was an alternative. And considering the long history of the Right of Annulment, apostates, mages who fled the Andrastian kingdoms for a better opportunity in Tevinter during the Exalted March against the "heathens of the Imperium", it isn't accurate to say that problems only arose recently with the Chantry controlled Circle. Even Aldenon the Wise (the co-founder of Ferelden) fought a rebellion against the templars to prevent the Chantry controlled Circle being imposed on the mages in the nation he was building with Calenhad.

Well the roots of Chantry approved magic were under Emperor Drakon.  Also, the circle itself predates the chantry with the circles in Tevinter but that isn't what we are discussing.  The only 2 limitations Drakon impossed is 1. Blood Magic forbidden 2. Mages could not unduly influence rulers or become rulers themselves.  That doesn't sound too horrible.

 

Rhys, Wynne, and others all remark about the freedoms mages formerly enjoyed until recently to leave the tower without escort, to travel between circles, in stolen throne the mages from Orlais are in command of their escorts, definitely not being beaten down by them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

With that kind of thinking, peace will never come.

 

Well, as I understand, Xil's perspective on the issue is not only that templars are the bad guys but that templars are supposed to be the bad guys. So making peace with them at all is wrong. And only destroying them is the only good option for players.

[Veruin]

Well, as I understand, Xil's perspective on the issue is not only that templars are the bad guys but that templars are supposed to be the bad guys. So making peace with them at all is wrong. And only destroying them is the only good option for players.

You're finally catching on to Xil's logic.

 

"My opinion is the paragon of morality and the clear right option"

[KaiserShep]

Protect mages is nothing than rule in codex but for real it is naive to belive in that rule because it is there to look pretty like blood magic in tevinter or game in orlais i can bet that law forbids that officially but it isn't treated seriously it is there just to look pretty.

 

I didn't say thrask was paranoid only true templars is doing his job should be thrask was opposite so he died because of it.

 

No they said system worked but it never did and numbers of disasters caused by mages even by that 3 years only in 1 country and 1 city speaks enough about it mages are not happy with circles and no one sane would be neither templars are happy because they can't do they job because their methods are too ineffective and soft. Thrask died for being naive idealist trying to make world better for everyone but it will never be in case someone have to suffer to one or many could be happy thats how world works.

 

So basically, you disagree with anything that suggests that peaceful coexistence is right to pursue, opting instead for a death-squad charged with the Sisyphusian task of eradicating any potential mage threats, since the Circle system is meant to create a haven for mages, as well as protect the public. Ironically, going that route would be undoubtedly paranoid.

[Xilizhra]

With that kind of thinking, peace will never come.

I don't intend to have peace with the templars happen, unless it's by capitulation.

 

 

Well, as I understand, Xil's perspective on the issue is not only that templars are the bad guys but that templars are supposed to be the bad guys. So making peace with them at all is wrong. And only destroying them is the only good option for players.

To compromise with them would allow them to regain a measure of their power, and that would make this entire conflict pointless.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So basically, you disagree with anything that suggests that peaceful coexistence is right to pursue, opting instead for a death-squad charged with the Sisyphusian task of eradicating any potential mage threats, since the Circle system is meant to create a haven for mages, as well as protect the public. Ironically, going that route would be undoubtedly paranoid.

TKS thinks all mages should be exterminated. And that whenever a mage is born, kill them immediately. However he will keep a few alive in a camp of some sorts in case they are needed to help with the Joining.

 

 

I don't intend to have peace with the templars happen, unless it's by capitulation.

 

 

To compromise with them would allow them to regain a measure of their power, and that would make this entire conflict pointless.

Nonmages will not view mages in a positive light when their first act of freedom is the extermination of the Templar Order.

[EmissaryofLies]

There can be a middle ground between mages and nonmages while the templars are ash on the wind.

 

Lets say that the mages destroy the templar order, what then? How would this look to the average idiotic Andrastian? How would the mages possibly convince them that they're not angling to become the dreaded Tevinter?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Thrask has the right idea, just terrible execution as others have said. You're  right about both sides being fundamentally opposed and thus making a middle ground extremely difficult to bring to light. 

 

The problem is that the mages aren't going back to their circles and the Templars will not stop until they do. 

 

If only one side gets what it wants, you'll be locked in the cycle forever and nothing will have changed i.e. Mages rule, Mundanes rule, Mages rule, Mundanes rule ad infinitum. 

 

Mages and Templars have to find a middle ground or the fighting between them will never end. And it is only a matter of time before another nation takes advantage of the situation.

 

As i said in theory middle ground may sound pretty and dandy like many ideals...

 

in reality it is rarely best way sometimes even catastrophic like in this case.

 

It is understandable that both want change becuase middle ground won't work in that case in gives nothing in practice it will nevery satisfy mages because they aren't treated very nice to be fair but also it will never satisfy templars because mages are treated too nice so they can keep safety for non-mages as we were proven.
 

As i said better to make 1 thing of 2 work than don't make work both someone have to win. As i said middle ground is stupid in that case.

 

 

Lets say that the mages destroy the templar order, what then? How would this look to the average idiotic Andrastian? How would the mages possibly convince them that they're not angling to become the dreaded Tevinter?

 

As i said someone have to suffer to someone be happy if templars will win mages will be guys who will "suffer" and chance to be happy will go for non-mages if mages will win non-mages will suffer and chance to be happy will go for mages.

 

 

So basically, you disagree with anything that suggests that peaceful coexistence is right to pursue, opting instead for a death-squad charged with the Sisyphusian task of eradicating any potential mage threats, since the Circle system is meant to create a haven for mages, as well as protect the public. Ironically, going that route would be undoubtedly paranoid.

 

Pace is not always good thing it sounds pretty but not always it is...

And no it is impossible because in order to keep own safety non-mages will have to control mages and in their cases that mean not very nice methods to control them second want to be free but they will take safety from non-mages.As i said it is better solve something that doesn't solve anything. As i said being paranoid may be negative trait but doesn't have to thrask wasn't he died many templars are and they live.

[Xilizhra]

Nonmages will not view mages in a positive light when their first act of freedom is the extermination of the Templar Order.

In a defensive war? Especially since the templars are no longer affiliated with the Chantry.

 

 

Lets say that the mages destroy the templar order, what then? How would this look to the average idiotic Andrastian? How would the mages possibly convince them that they're not angling to become the dreaded Tevinter?

I think they'll be more worried about the Veil tears at the moment, and whoever helps fix those will rise high in the opinion of many.

[EmissaryofLies]

As i said in theory middle ground may sound pretty and dandy like many ideals...

 

in reality it is rarely best way sometimes even catastrophic like in this case.

 

It is understandable that both want change becuase middle ground won't work in that case in gives nothing in practice it will nevery satisfy mages because they aren't treated very nice to be fair but also it will never satisfy templars because mages are treated too nice so they can keep safety for non-mages as we were proven.
 

As i said better to make 1 thing of 2 work than don't make work both someone have to win. As i said middle ground is stupid in that case.

 

I don't buy that. 

 

If one templar, Thrask, was able to get mages and templars of KIRKWALL to work together it is possible. 

 

Yeah he messed up and let his guard down, but think of what could be accomplished if more people from both sides were actually willing to sit down and talk and keep their extremists in check. 

 

Or  Lets say that one side 'wins', you leave the legs of Andraste wide open for any nation strong enough to swoop on in and potentially take over. Lets not forget that it was the mages who tipped the balance to fight the Qunari to a standstill. 

[EmissaryofLies]

 

I think they'll be more worried about the Veil tears at the moment, and whoever helps fix those will rise high in the opinion of many.

 

Interesting. Best hope mages aren't blamed for it in the first place.