8640 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

SgtSteel91 wrote...


That's not good, then. IMO the writes wanted both sides to be viable or equally sympathetic for different reasons. I don't think the conficlt is supposed to be as black and white as Darkspawn and Wardens.

Well it isn't exactly black and white rather grey and black because well grey wardens aren't lawful good paladins neither templars are both group are rather morally suspect and flawed.

But yes if they wanted paint that as equal and grey vs grey like empire and stormcloaks in skyrim they failed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...


That's not good, then. IMO the writes wanted both sides to be viable or equally sympathetic for different reasons. I don't think the conficlt is supposed to be as black and white as Darkspawn and Wardens.

Well it isn't exactly black and white rather grey and black because well grey wardens aren't lawful good paladins neither templars are both group are rather morally suspect and flawed.

But yes if they wanted paint that as equal and grey vs grey like empire and stormcloaks in skyrim they failed.

Pfft, Empire and Stormcloaks being painted equally.

[Hellion Rex]

@TK514
Coming from a pro-mage, take this how you will, but I absolutely agree with you. We haven't had much chance to explore an actual templar perspective. Granted, we have seen great examples of individual, respectable templars - Otto, Thrask, Cullen, and Bryant, versus dozens and dozens of more positive mages. One of the biggest issues I had with DA2 was how I felt like I was doing something morally wrong to support the templars at all, something which I absolutely detested. I hope that we can have an honest Templar companion in DAI, to contrast the 5 mages that we have been given.

Modifié par eluvianix, 17 février 2014 - 02:48 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...


That's not good, then. IMO the writes wanted both sides to be viable or equally sympathetic for different reasons. I don't think the conficlt is supposed to be as black and white as Darkspawn and Wardens.

Well it isn't exactly black and white rather grey and black because well grey wardens aren't lawful good paladins neither templars are both group are rather morally suspect and flawed.

But yes if they wanted paint that as equal and grey vs grey like empire and stormcloaks in skyrim they failed.

Pfft, Empire and Stormcloaks being painted equally.

Well aren't they? To be honest whether i took empire or stormcloaks side in the end i was thinking what side was right and there is no answer sides have different ideals but both are flawed in own ways there is no right side.Neither side is danger for the world and villain neither side is hero and saving world. 

[SgtSteel91]

Taking a risk by going off topic, but I gotta agree with TKS. You can find reasons why siding with Stormcloaks or the Empire is a 'good' thing.

It's much harder to find equal but separate reasons to side with Templars or Mages. The fact there are people who cannot find reasons to side with the other side is a problem.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 17 février 2014 - 02:52 .

[TK514]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Yes, the writers have done an abysmal job of presenting the Mage-Templar conflict in an even, objective, and unbiased fashion.  They's so pro-mage it's absurd.

Then why was David Gaider so surprised when the vast majority of players saved the mages in Origins instead of a more equal split?

Feel free to ask him.

[SgtSteel91]

TK514 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Yes, the writers have done an abysmal job of presenting the Mage-Templar conflict in an even, objective, and unbiased fashion.  They's so pro-mage it's absurd.

Then why was David Gaider so surprised when the vast majority of players saved the mages in Origins instead of a more equal split?

Feel free to ask him.

Because they tried their best to make both sides equally gray and get people to side with either equally in DA2.

[leaguer of one]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...


Pfft, Empire and Stormcloaks being painted equally.

Off topic:
I just read what's in your link......

[TheKomandorShepard]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Yes, the writers have done an abysmal job of presenting the Mage-Templar conflict in an even, objective, and unbiased fashion.  They's so pro-mage it's absurd.

Then why was David Gaider so surprised when the vast majority of players saved the mages in Origins instead of a more equal split?

Feel free to ask him.

Because they tried their best to make both sides equally gray and get people to side with either equally in DA2.

I would say that simple players are used to take "good" option save everyone and almost always that was without consequences and it was in case also in dao so pretty much why so many saved mages in dao... also thing weren't presented ligltly as main theme was blight so first tought was mages innocent victims when templars bad oppresors as most rpg games taught many players...

When templars are flawed they are protecting world even if they are incpmetent about when mages are simple danger for the world with little positive traitis they caused only troubles in series many main and side quest is about dealing with crap that mage caused...

[leaguer of one]

TK514 wrote...



Companions:

3 Mages, 0 Templars.  Plenty of time to get the mage point of view as both an escaped Circle Mage and as an Apostate.  No opportunity to see what life is like as a normal Templar.

Isn't Feneris basicly a super templar?

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


When templars are flawed they are protecting world even if they are incpmetent about when mages are simple danger for the world with little positive traitis they caused only troubles in series many main and side quest is about dealing with crap that mage caused...

Outside of healing, their knowlege, and their support in war?
Again, the majority of mages are not walking bombs.

[TK514]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Yes, the writers have done an abysmal job of presenting the Mage-Templar conflict in an even, objective, and unbiased fashion.  They's so pro-mage it's absurd.

Then why was David Gaider so surprised when the vast majority of players saved the mages in Origins instead of a more equal split?

Feel free to ask him.

Because they tried their best to make both sides equally gray and get people to side with either equally in DA2.

What they wanted to do, could have done, thought they did, tried to do, dreamed about doing, and promised cross their hearts and hope to die they really really meant to do are all irrelevant when weighed against what they did.

They may have tried to be balanced but what the did was be biased in favor of Mages.

leaguer of one wrote...

TK514 wrote...



Companions:

3
Mages, 0 Templars.  Plenty of time to get the mage point of view as
both an escaped Circle Mage and as an Apostate.  No opportunity to see
what life is like as a normal Templar.

Isn't Feneris basicly a super templar?

No?  He's an escaped slave who hates mages.  In what way is he even remotely a Templar?  Did he join the Order?  Did he spend years as an initiate learning their proceedures, their reasonings, their operational rules?  Has he spent any time in a Circle, guarding mages, viewing them as people to be protected and protected against?  Seeing them as people he might have a crush on?  Seeing them as anything other than Denarius?

Modifié par TK514, 17 février 2014 - 03:30 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

TK514 wrote...



Companions:

3 Mages, 0 Templars.  Plenty of time to get the mage point of view as both an escaped Circle Mage and as an Apostate.  No opportunity to see what life is like as a normal Templar.

Isn't Feneris basicly a super templar?

he is more anti-mage and well he is always right when he speak about mages but still he is little bi**** tortured me with whining...

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


When templars are flawed they are protecting world even if they are incpmetent about when mages are simple danger for the world with little positive traitis they caused only troubles in series many main and side quest is about dealing with crap that mage caused...

Outside of healing, their knowlege, and their support in war?
Again, the majority of mages are not walking bombs.

Yeah healing very limited as for fantasy ... haha what knowledge? yes because walking bomb that can turn into insane monster is very useful.Well lets compare help that mages done in series with all harm they did your part will end quickly my will take a long time so i reserve right to be grumpy...

Besides now we know who supported mages and was naive part...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 17 février 2014 - 03:25 .

[thetinyevil]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Those 72 people were suredly happy in the knowledge that they died at the hands of a "free" mage....

Those thousands of mages were suredly happy in the knowlegdge that they died for the betterment of the world.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

leaguer of one wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...


Pfft, Empire and Stormcloaks being painted equally.

Off topic:
I just read what's in your link......

Yhank you, leaguer. I always appreciate it when people enjoy my work. 

If you don't mind, could you repost this in the thread about it? I was going to bump it so others could read it, but doing that by myself may get it locked.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 17 février 2014 - 03:30 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

thetinyevil wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Those 72 people were suredly happy in the knowledge that they died at the hands of a "free" mage....

Those thousands of mages were suredly happy in the knowlegdge that they died for the betterment of the world.

Those milions who was slained because mages/abomnations and problems/disasters they caused...

oh that poor tortued mages that sleep in expensive beds and have good meals 3 times every day just horrible HORRIBLE!

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 17 février 2014 - 03:31 .

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TK514 wrote...



Companions:

3 Mages, 0 Templars.  Plenty of time to get the mage point of view as both an escaped Circle Mage and as an Apostate.  No opportunity to see what life is like as a normal Templar.

Isn't Feneris basicly a super templar?

he is more anti-mage and well he is always right when he speak about mages but still he is little bi**** tortured me with whining...

I mean in abilities. His skin is laced with lyrium, the thing tamplars need to ressist magic. He has a high magic resistance. The only thing he can't do is dispell magic.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Yes, the writers have done an abysmal job of presenting the Mage-Templar conflict in an even, objective, and unbiased fashion.  They's so pro-mage it's absurd.

Then why was David Gaider so surprised when the vast majority of players saved the mages in Origins instead of a more equal split?

Feel free to ask him.

Because they tried their best to make both sides equally gray and get people to side with either equally in DA2.

Yeah. They tried to level the fanbases by basically showing the worst of both sides. Give them credit where credit is due, the forums are a lot more equally split about which side is right now over when before DA2 was out.

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Those 72 people were suredly happy in the knowledge that they died at the hands of a "free" mage....

Those thousands of mages were suredly happy in the knowlegdge that they died for the betterment of the world.

Those milions who was slained because mages/abomnations and problems/disasters they caused...

oh that poor tortued mages that sleep in expensive beds and have good meals 3 times every day just horrible HORRIBLE!

Where are you getting these numbers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm generally slightly more sympathetic to a templar perspective, but yeah I don't think they've done a good job making the conflict seem equal. At least in the major decision points. In Origins and in DA 2 actually. In Origins, there isn't really a Templar/Mage conflict at all. There's the paranoid ramblings of one traumatized templar that actually sound sillier now that I know more about Dragon Age lore than it did when I first played the game vs the kidnapped mages you were already on a quest to rescue from the demons. If you leave the decision up to the actual leader of the Templars, he just dismisses Cullen out of hand and rightfully so. In essence it's siding with the Circle and ergo siding with both mages AND templars or killing all the mages.

And in Dragon Age 2, they set up the final decision to be basically unrelated to the larger Mage-Templar conflict. Do I think mages should be free? Do templars treat mages unfairly? Do I condone Anders terrorism? It doesn't matter because Meredith's actions don't really address any of that. So naturally I sided against the person killing people for an unrelated person's crime. Even my one Hawke that sided with Meredith did so because she forced his hand and would have preferred not to.

Plus Orsino is portrayed as reasonable until after you've made your choice, while Meredith is portrayed as antagonistic, power hungry and paranoid. Even the pro-order characters like Aveline have issues with the templars before the end.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 février 2014 - 03:39 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Those 72 people were suredly happy in the knowledge that they died at the hands of a "free" mage....

Those thousands of mages were suredly happy in the knowlegdge that they died for the betterment of the world.

Those milions who was slained because mages/abomnations and problems/disasters they caused...

oh that poor tortued mages that sleep in expensive beds and have good meals 3 times every day just horrible HORRIBLE!

Where are you getting these numbers.

Just counts those killed by blight that MAGES caused and we already have hefty numbers of peoples killed now add those killed by abomnations and yep we have many numbers trough 10 years and now count other magical incidents like zathrian curse , harvesters , blood mages and many others... 

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


When templars are flawed they are protecting world even if they are incpmetent about when mages are simple danger for the world with little positive traitis they caused only troubles in series many main and side quest is about dealing with crap that mage caused...

Outside of healing, their knowlege, and their support in war?
Again, the majority of mages are not walking bombs.

Yeah healing very limited as for fantasy ... haha what knowledge? yes because walking bomb that can turn into insane monster is very useful.Well lets compare help that mages done in series with all harm they did your part will end quickly my will take a long time so i reserve right to be grumpy...

Besides now we know who supported mages and was naive part...

Limited? A person can be highly damages from a dragon and the mage can heal them from that. For knowleges ...Have you even seen the library of the college of magi?

Snd for the last time very few mages turn into abominations.

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Those 72 people were suredly happy in the knowledge that they died at the hands of a "free" mage....

Those thousands of mages were suredly happy in the knowlegdge that they died for the betterment of the world.

Those milions who was slained because mages/abomnations and problems/disasters they caused...

oh that poor tortued mages that sleep in expensive beds and have good meals 3 times every day just horrible HORRIBLE!

Where are you getting these numbers.

Just counts those killed by blight that MAGES caused and we already have hefty numbers of peoples killed now add those killed by abomnations and yep we have many numbers trough 10 years and now count other magical incidents like zathrian curse , harvesters , blood mages and many others... 

1. Havester were invented by the dwarves.
2. Mages of now have nothing to do with the blight and are victems of them as well. Also, they help stop them.
3.You clearly are grasping for straws.

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


When templars are flawed they are protecting world even if they are incpmetent about when mages are simple danger for the world with little positive traitis they caused only troubles in series many main and side quest is about dealing with crap that mage caused...

Outside of healing, their knowlege, and their support in war?
Again, the majority of mages are not walking bombs.

Yeah healing very limited as for fantasy ... haha what knowledge? yes because walking bomb that can turn into insane monster is very useful.Well lets compare help that mages done in series with all harm they did your part will end quickly my will take a long time so i reserve right to be grumpy...

Besides now we know who supported mages and was naive part...

Limited? A person can be highly damages from a dragon and the mage can heal them from that. For knowleges ...Have you even seen the library of the college of magi?

Snd for the last time very few mages turn into abominations.

Yes right as i saw mages can at best heal medium injures not heavy or poison... And what i have many books in my house that means that im genius?

"Snd for the last time very few mages turn into abominations."


yeas for example circle tower in ferelden oh no bad example o yeah circle mages in kirkwall crap another bad example i know baroness still bad...

leaguer of one wrote...

1. Havester were invented by the dwarves.
2. Mages of now have nothing to do with the blight and are victems of them as well. Also, they help stop them.
3.You clearly are grasping for straws.

1.Not rly without magister they wouldn't create harvester so mage did it...
2.Ahahaha yes they only brought that to thedas ups yes lets burn village ans save ashes we are HEROES!
3. yeah right...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 17 février 2014 - 03:42 .