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[Dean_the_Young]

Advocate. I can hardly do so for Anders' and Adrian's actions, as they've already been completed. As for the rest, I should have clarified: I haven't advocated anything you were referring to in the "possible crimes against mages" category that wasn't voted on (namely, pursuing the war against the templars).

 

 

Sure you can. Advocacy can and frequently is on the basis of and in defense of past actions. Advocacy is not a forward-only concern.

 

As for the second part, you're still holding true to my rebuttal. You frequently advocate independent of what the mage collective has actually voted on. Appealing to following the collective will and desires of the mages is utterly dishonest considering what you've supported without their input to get them to that point.

 

 

 

Anders' actions are not something that I personally would have done had I had the ability to make that decision. Adrian... I've not been able to come up with an option that would have made things better.

 

 

 

Because you have a wacky maternal complex and have repeatedly advocated in defense of and claimed that deliberately instigating the massive loss of life of innocents were moral and appropriate as the only path to reform, even when they weren't. You just gave up on the alternatives, which is not the same thing.

 

The fact of the mater is, you have over the years defended and advocated on behalf of deliberate efforts to inflict unnecessary and undesired suffering on mages against their will and what they would choose otherwise while claiming this is for their own good.

[Xilizhra]

Sure you can. Advocacy can and frequently is on the basis of past actions. Advocacy is not a forward-only concern.

 

As for the second part, you're still holding true to my rebuttal. You frequently advocate independent of what the mage collective has actually voted on.

 

 

 

Because you have a wacky maternal complex and have repeatedly advocated in defense of and claimed that deliberately instigating the massive loss of life of innocents was moral and appropriate as the only path to reform, even when it wasn't. You just gave up on the alternatives, which is not the same thing.

 

The fact of the mater is, you have over the years defended and advocated on behalf of deliberate efforts to inflict unnecessary and undesired suffering on mages against their will and what they would choose otherwise while claiming this is for their own good.

Enlighten me, then. If you were Adrian, how would you defeat Lambert and the templars?

[Dean_the_Young]

Enlighten me, then. If you were Adrian, how would you defeat Lambert and the templars?

 

I would avoid falling into a self-blinding zero-sum perspective in the first place. Defeating Lambert and the Templars isn't a goal worth pursuing, because it ignores and even counters what the goal of the mages should be: reform of the system. Instead of destroying the system in a way that vindicates and revives the contexts that created it in the first place, Adrian should have focused on the Divine's efforts for reforms. As it was, Adrian's policies and goals are little more than establishing the conditions for a rise of mage dominance at the expense of the mundanes.

 

You might as well ask me how I would trigger an Annulment in Anders place. I wouldn't- the goal itself isn't worth bothering with.

[Xilizhra]

I would avoid falling into a self-blinding zero-sum perspective in the first place. Defeating Lambert and the Templars isn't a goal worth pursuing, because it ignores and even counters what the goal of the mages should be: reform of the system. Instead of destroying the system in a way that vindicates and revives the contexts that created it in the first place, Adrian should have focused on the Divine's efforts for reforms.

 

You might as well ask me how I would trigger an Annulment in Anders place. I wouldn't- the goal itself isn't worth bothering with.

I contend that Lambert would have to be stopped either way, as he'd be perfectly willing to kill Justinia if he felt like he was losing too much power. It isn't that I consider reform necessarily worthless, so much as that I believe that it was way too late to implement it right then; tensions were too high. Justinia's lack of universal support and the fact that the templars have all the weapons both indicate, to me, that one way or another, peace wouldn't last long, and the mages would be in dire trouble if the templars consolidated control over the Chantry.

[wcholcombe]

But if Lambert would have acted against the divine his support would have eroded.

The idea that all templars are mage hating neonazis is laughable especially when you have others who fly fully in the face of that.

Allistaire- OK he didn't take the votes but guess what, he was raised in a chantry orphanage, trained by templars, and taught templar skills. He was expected to take the vows and I don't think he would have suddenly stopped being who he was when he took said vows.

[Dean_the_Young]

I contend that Lambert would have to be stopped either way, as he'd be perfectly willing to kill Justinia if he felt like he was losing too much power. It isn't that I consider reform necessarily worthless, so much as that I believe that it was way too late to implement it right then; tensions were too high. Justinia's lack of universal support and the fact that the templars have all the weapons both indicate, to me, that one way or another, peace wouldn't last long, and the mages would be in dire trouble if the templars consolidated control over the Chantry.

 

You can rationalize it all you want, but at this point you're inventing lore and justifications (as you are want to do) to justify a conclusion you already agree with. Tensions were just too high because mages like Adrian and Anders (and Tevinter provocateurs) were deliberately escalating them. But, as is typical for you, their involvement is unmentioned and even forgiven while you exaggerate the role, actions, and motivations of the Templars. The source of tensions is repeatedly ignored except in so much that you channel all the villainy on your chosen scapegoat, hence your justification that their destruction is an imperative and must be a goal.

 

This is a good part of why your maternalism complex is so wacky. Forgiving the sins of the children while demonizing the opposition is understandable and part of the maternalism aspect, but it makes it no more based in reality than any other complex.

[EmissaryofLies]

Pretty normally, all things considered. If your rational for fearing authority is the basis of what it could do to you, only anarchy will suffice: as it is, there's nothing stopping any other organization, even the mage collective, from doing the same things to a mage.

 

Of course, most people understand that loyal behavior isn't followed by a lobotomization and execution, even if they are possible at the hands of authority. And there isn't anything in particular in any DA media to suggest that has been a problem: not even Anders, hyperbolic as he is, claims that.

 

That's just the issue. This authority has a not so-friendly history with mages. A down right ugly one when it comes down to it.

I am not so confident as to believe that the surrendering mages will not face consequences, some as severe as tranquility.

 

If they're willing to leave the chantry simply to hunt mages who legally should be free? You'll have to forgive me for doubting their  supposedly altruistic intentions.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Quote

This is the only one I have.  Since the caption just makes me laugh.

 

*snip*

 

My favorite part of that picture is how bored the Templar seems. He isn't tensed up or anything as he runs that mage through with his blade. Like, he was literally just walking with it out and walked into her.

[Palidane]

I think it is very clear that at this point, the Templar Order is corrupt beyond all hope of redemption. There are still noble, heroic templars, and not every Circle is a hellhole, but I believe the balance has been tipped too far in favor of the radicals. Too many templars are ignorant, dogmatic, and violent, and too many Circles are abusive gulags. When the Circle in Val Royeaux, the one closest to the Chantry and easiest to monitor by the Seekers, is so toxic that nobody questions when a mage just disappears out of nowhere, there can be no excuses. The rest of their actions in Asunder serve to further reinforce this conclusion.

 

It is time the Templar Order was utterly destroyed, torn out root and branch. Maybe something better can be forged from their ashes. 

[KaiserShep]

I think reformation is preferable to dissolution. Total freedom for mages sounds nice in principle, but it may actually prove more hazardous for both them as well as mundanes. You'd have regular mages who have no safe haven from anti-mage fanatics who might just be willing to lynch them on sight, and you'd have no force specialized in dealing with maleficars that use their talents for ill. At least with a [proper] Circle, you'd have a place where mages can test their will against demonic possession in relative safety.

[TEWR]

You surfacers are weird, man....

[The Elder King]

You surfacers are weird, man....

As you cave-dwellers are any better .

[KaiserShep]

You surfacers are weird, man....

 

We can't all farm nugs and pepper our ale with lyrium.

[TEWR]

As you cave-dwellers are any better .

 

We can't all farm nugs and pepper our ale with lyrium.

 

You two just don't know the glorious majesty that is the Dwarven kingdom. You wait, we'll help you with your war.

 

Again.

[shit's fucked cunts]

You wait, we'll help you with your war.

 

We're only waiting because it takes you forever to get anywhere, small-fry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

If they're willing to leave the chantry simply to hunt mages who legally should be free? You'll have to forgive me for doubting their  supposedly altruistic intentions.

 

Should they be? How do you figure?

The accords with the Chantry only stipulate that the former inquisition (templars) will be working with the Chantry in their goal to control the mages.

 

 

When the Circle in Val Royeaux, the one closest to the Chantry and easiest to monitor by the Seekers, is so toxic that nobody questions when a mage just disappears out of nowhere, there can be no excuses.The rest of their actions in Asunder serve to further reinforce this conclusion.

 

You mean like how they were determined to find the mage-killer?

 

OR how despite their being an unprecedented demon/abomination (Cole) present, they just decided to lock up the mages present in the room with it until the investiagation is concluded?

[Lotion Soronarr]

I contend that Lambert would have to be stopped either way, as he'd be perfectly willing to kill Justinia if he felt like he was losing too much power. It isn't that I consider reform necessarily worthless, so much as that I believe that it was way too late to implement it right then; tensions were too high. Justinia's lack of universal support and the fact that the templars have all the weapons both indicate, to me, that one way or another, peace wouldn't last long, and the mages would be in dire trouble if the templars consolidated control over the Chantry.

 

Conjecture.

 

Also, given the fact that Justinia was perfectly willing to KILL TEMPLARS, I'd say her support of mages is unquestionable.

 

 

Kinda funny that you support a war that will see many mages and mundanes dead, all to make the lives of mages temporarily "better" (questionable in itself),

BUT

at the same time, condemn the templars for supporting the system that will see a few mages dead, all to make lives for everyone safer.

 

Lives are lost either way, only your war will see more of them lost.

[DKJaigen]

Conjecture.

 

Also, given the fact that Justinia was perfectly willing to KILL TEMPLARS, I'd say her support of mages is unquestionable.

 

 

Kinda funny that you support a war that will see many mages and mundanes dead, all to make the lives of mages temporarily "better" (questionable in itself),

BUT

at the same time, condemn the templars for supporting the system that will see a few mages dead, all to make lives for everyone safer.

 

Lives are lost either way, only your war will see more of them lost.

 

Conjecture.

 

Also, given the fact that Justinia was perfectly willing to KILL TEMPLARS, I'd say her support of mages is unquestionable.

 

 

Kinda funny that you support a war that will see many mages and mundanes dead, all to make the lives of mages temporarily "better" (questionable in itself),

BUT

at the same time, condemn the templars for supporting the system that will see a few mages dead, all to make lives for everyone safer.

 

Lives are lost either way, only your war will see more of them lost.

 

But this is not a war of the mages. This is a war of somebody that opend those fade tears. for 1000 years the circle system has worked because nobody was around to push over this house of cards. But that time is over and the who ever is behind all of this has corrupted the templars to the point they are far more dangerous then the mages. Religous zealots deprived of their fix is just not ging to end well.

[EmissaryofLies]

I think reformation is preferable to dissolution. Total freedom for mages sounds nice in principle, but it may actually prove more hazardous for both them as well as mundanes. You'd have regular mages who have no safe haven from anti-mage fanatics who might just be willing to lynch them on sight, and you'd have no force specialized in dealing with maleficars that use their talents for ill. At least with a [proper] Circle, you'd have a place where mages can test their will against demonic possession in relative safety.

 

This is the crux of the entire issue.

 

We need to define exactly down to the last letter what exactly "reformation" and "compromise" mean. If it involves confining mages to their prisons forever and ever, it would never work.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's just the issue. This authority has a not so-friendly history with mages. A down right ugly one when it comes down to it.

I am not so confident as to believe that the surrendering mages will not face consequences, some as severe as tranquility.

 

If they're willing to leave the chantry simply to hunt mages who legally should be free? You'll have to forgive me for doubting their  supposedly altruistic intentions.

 

I'll forgive you for doubting their intentions, but I see no reason for you doubting a millenia of history. The standard relationship between mages and templars isn't one of templars punishing loyal behavior with execution or tranquility.
 

[Palidane]

Conjecture.

 

Also, given the fact that Justinia was perfectly willing to KILL TEMPLARS, I'd say her support of mages is unquestionable.

 

Conjecture, huh? Then who let Jeannot out of the White Spire?

 

You can kill Templars and still be a moderate. That's actually the whole problem in a nutshell.

 

You mean like how they were determined to find the mage-killer?

 

OR how despite their being an unprecedented demon/abomination (Cole) present, they just decided to lock up the mages present in the room with it until the investiagation is concluded?

 

After he shanked six people, yeah. Read Asunder, Rhys says that mages vanish mysteriously all the time, whether transferred to a different Circle, sent on an assignment by the Chantry, or straight murdered for all he knows. He says that's just how it is done, and no one questions it.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

But this is not a war of the mages. This is a war of somebody that opend those fade tears. for 1000 years the circle system has worked because nobody was around to push over this house of cards. But that time is over and the who ever is behind all of this has corrupted the templars to the point they are far more dangerous then the mages. Religous zealots deprived of their fix is just not ging to end well.

 

 

Corrupted the Templars? Why not corrupted the mages?

 

The Templars are holding a stance they have for a millenia- mages should not be allowed to leave the Circle system. The rise of the radical mage independence movement, which doesn't even acknowledge the legitimacy of the premise of the Circle system in the first place, is the new development.

[Dean_the_Young]

This is the crux of the entire issue.

 

We need to define exactly down to the last letter what exactly "reformation" and "compromise" mean. If it involves confining mages to their prisons forever and ever, it would never work.

 

Which it hasn't- mages aren't locked down in the towers forever and ever. They can earn the privilege to leave for extended durations, and even permanent dispensation for exceptional merit and conditions.

 

The problem many pro-mages have is that stepping out of the Circles is a privilege, not a right, and that it must be earned, and is not granted freely.

 

They also have a problem with the premise of an life-long security state, but that's because there's a ingrained notion that security threats are temporary, not enduring, in nature. That something stops being a risk if it doesn't happen long enough.

 

 

Edit: I'll elaborate on the life-long threat a tad since I think it's worth pointing out that the risk of magic abuse and demonic possession is greatest in times of stress and emotional volatility, and even without a Circle system stress is a given across one's life time, from start to finish. Childhood and adolescence, the point at which mages come into their powers, is a time of biological and social change mixed with an extreme lack of experience and maturity to handle such impacts on one's own. In the mid-life, issues of love and family, beautiful as they are, are extreme challenges to emotional stability even when things are going well, and a source of great temptations when they are not. And at the end of life, the natural fear of death or it's approach is a strong  basis of appeal for the powers and temptations demons can offer to put off or escape it.

 

The threat of demonic possession isn't something that goes away after your mage tests and education- it's a matter of context, and aboloshing the Circles and offering mages total freedom won't remove those contexts.

[DKJaigen]

Corrupted the Templars? Why not corrupted the mages?

 

The Templars are holding a stance they have for a millenia- mages should not be allowed to leave the Circle system. The rise of the radical mage independence movement, which doesn't even acknowledge the legitimacy of the premise of the Circle system in the first place, is the new development.

 

Some mages are corupted n doubt about it. but its much easier to corrupt drug addicts. For the templars its even worse. If they stop drinking lyrium they go mad and then die. And their stance is then  irrelevant. Addcits do not have a stance. the one who feeds the addicts their fix is the one who decides the stance.

 

We have already seen templars actively hindering the inquisition from closing fade portals. so their stance has already been changed.

[dragonflight288]

You two just don't know the glorious majesty that is the Dwarven kingdom. You wait, we'll help you with your war.

 

Again.

 

Indeed.