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[The Elder King]

You two just don't know the glorious majesty that is the Dwarven kingdom. You wait, we'll help you with your war.
 
Again.

Last time I checked I helped you first with your civil war, are you sure it'll not happen again ?

[Dean_the_Young]

Some mages are corupted n doubt about it. but its much easier to corrupt drug addicts. For the templars its even worse. If they stop drinking lyrium they go mad and then die. And their stance is then  irrelevant. Addcits do not have a stance. the one who feeds the addicts their fix is the one who decides the stance.

 

...what? This isn't an actual argument that the Templars have changed positions in the leadup to the war in a way to create the situation. There isn't even an assertion in this that the Templars actually have been corrupted via exploiting the lyrium issue.
 

Nor have you supported the claim that now the Templars are now more dangerous than the mages.

 

 

We have already seen templars actively hindering the inquisition from closing fade portals. so their stance has already been changed.

 

 

Since 'help the inquisition close fade portals' hasn't been a stance in the last thousand years...

 

There's also the point that we're blind to context about why the Inquisition and Templars are in conflict in the first place. It could very well be that the Inquisition was interfering with the Templars' priority. Which can very well be the mage rebellion: just because the fade portals are your priority does not mean they are everyone else's.

[Mistic]

Am I the only one eager to know how the original Inquisition handled these issues in the past? You know, when there was no Chantry, Orlais was this full-of-itself kingdom lead by that ambitious upstart called Drakon, and the Second Blight was beginning.

 

Much has been said about the Templars' duty, but do we really know that duty? What did the Nevarran Accord say? Not the Chantry, not the Templars, not the mages, but the actual accord signed by the Inquisition. Maybe the rise of the new Inquisition will have its grounds in stating that each and everyone of its successors (Chantry, Circles, Templars and Seekers) betrayed its original purpose and are unfit to bring order to the world again.

[dragonflight288]

I'll forgive you for doubting their intentions, but I see no reason for you doubting a millenia of history. The standard relationship between mages and templars isn't one of templars punishing loyal behavior with execution or tranquility.
 

 

While true, it has been growing more and more frequent in recent history as templars grow more and more extreme. And not just Alrik, but Rhys in Asunder says mages go missing all the time, Lambert wanted to make Pharamond tranquil again. But wouldn't he need a First Enchanter's approval as we've seen in Origins with Jowan? Since it's apparent that Lambert doesn't need to work with mages to do that, it's just a sign that mages are losing more and more autonomy and rights, what few they had in the current system. 

 

Fact of the matter is, Lambert had all the swords, and had assumed control of the templars and the mages essentially, so even though he answered to the Divine, he actually had the majority of the power. If he wanted to do something, there was no legal process for the mages to complain to or for anyone to get the bad eggs out of their lives.

 

I'm sure the shift started while Beatrix was Divine and pretty much was a figurehead because she was so old, and the templars/seekers got used to certain privileges that they technically shouldn't have had. 

[dragonflight288]

Last time I checked I helped you first with your civil war, are you sure it'll not happen again ?

 

Ah, ah, ah. Technically, the dwarves hadn't actually had a civil war. Civil unrest and political skirmishes, sure, but not an open war. Wheareas the dwarves had to help the surface with their actual war and helped turn aside the blight.

[shodiswe]

I find it ironic how the Templars keep repeating quotes like. "Magic is meant to serve man, not rule them."

 

It seems like they forget that the mages are men and women aswell. But they turn them into slaves because they got magic in them.

 

Because they got magic skills they are forced to forever serve others and be ruled by those with no magic who are constantly reminding them that they got pointy swords to stab them with if they don't do as they are told. In essence their freedom is taken from them because of the magic, and subsequently magic that they were born with forces them into servitude under the yoke of the Templars.

 

It makes sense that there would be a "police force" like the templars who specialise in arresting criminals who requiers special training because they might be dangerous.

 

But I find it unreasonable to lock them all up. At times they make it siund like they are doing it for their own protection to protect them from demons wanting to invade their minds. But at the same time it just seems like it would be easier for the demons to find them if they are all at the same place. Those circles become like giant baited traps.

The pressure the mages are exposed to also weakens their will in theory and would make them even more vulnerable. We're told they need strong will to resist demonic influence, but all the templars seems to be doing is trying to break the will of the mages. Forcing them into submission.

[shodiswe]

If they have them attend "magicschools" to control their powers and learn restraint and control and willpower then so be it. But to lock them up for the rest of their lives seems very cruel.

 

If they commit a serious crime then it's a different matter, but locking them up for being born as a mage seems barbaric.

[Dean_the_Young]

While true, it has been growing more and more frequent in recent history as templars grow more and more extreme. And not just Alrik, but Rhys in Asunder says mages go missing all the time, Lambert wanted to make Pharamond tranquil again. But wouldn't he need a First Enchanter's approval as we've seen in Origins with Jowan? Since it's apparent that Lambert doesn't need to work with mages to do that, it's just a sign that mages are losing more and more autonomy and rights, what few they had in the current system. 

 

Fact of the matter is, Lambert had all the swords, and had assumed control of the templars and the mages essentially, so even though he answered to the Divine, he actually had the majority of the power. If he wanted to do something, there was no legal process for the mages to complain to or for anyone to get the bad eggs out of their lives.

 

I'm sure the shift started while Beatrix was Divine and pretty much was a figurehead because she was so old, and the templars/seekers got used to certain privileges that they technically shouldn't have had. 

 

And what is Rhys's source? Why assume it is all the Templars kidnapping and disappearing the mages, rather than also factoring in the growing Mage underground railroad, or transfers between Circles? What is the basis for claiming this is a new development? Anders makes similar hyperbolic claims, if you remember- about how mages are constantly being made Tranquil for the slightest offense.

 

A 'constant' and 'slightest' that amounted to... a dozen in a year. In Kirkwall. When we did have a Renegade Templar conducting unauthorized Tranquility. Without any context of what offenses or basis the official acts were based on.

 

There's a lack of history here, and one that needs to be clarified to claim a change in Templar status and actions.

 

I am a bit puzzled at your claiming of Lambert has all the swords considering what we're dealing with here: mages have their own super-swords as well, and Lambert's control of both the Mages and Templars were nowhere near as absolute as you are claiming.

[dragonflight288]

And what is Rhys's source? Why assume it is all the Templars kidnapping and disappearing the mages, rather than also factoring in the growing Mage underground railroad, or transfers between Circles? What is the basis for claiming this is a new development? Anders makes similar hyperbolic claims, if you remember- about how mages are constantly being made Tranquil for the slightest offense.

 

A 'constant' and 'slightest' that amounted to... a dozen in a year. In Kirkwall. When we did have a Renegade Templar conducting unauthorized Tranquility. Without any context of what offenses or basis the official acts were based on.

 

There's a lack of history here, and one that needs to be clarified to claim a change in Templar status and actions.

 

I am a bit puzzled at your claiming of Lambert has all the swords considering what we're dealing with here: mages have their own super-swords as well, and Lambert's control of both the Mages and Templars were nowhere near as absolute as you are claiming.

 

I think Rhys's source is personal experience and what he's seen growing up in the Circle and being controlled by the Chantry his whole life, since the templars took him from his mother's arms the moment he was born. 

 

Good point on the mage underground. 

 

As for the lack of history, we had Meredith's essential seizure of power in Kirkwall, and even before then we had templar extremists getting promoted over more moderate ones. Thrask says Kerras was one of Meredith's cronies and she'd consider him justified slaughtering all the mages if they hadn't surrendered before he arrived. Cullen's codex says he was promoted to Knight-Captain because his views matched hers and she hoped he'd influence all the other templars. Ser Mettin was running a death squad with Meredith's blessing.

 

And there were no Seekers investigating the templars considerable overreach of power.

 

At first I thought that Kirkwall was just an anomaly until Asunder came out. Then I saw that Lambert had seized control of the templars, used his experiences in Tevinter to shape his role as the head of the Seekers, got too involved with the mages and spent more time being a templar than a seeker. How he ordered Evangeline to make sure no evidence existed that tranquility was curable, wanted to murder the proof that was Pharamond, Rhys and Wynne as witnesses, and nearly threw a hissy fit when the meeting with the Divine didn't go his way. 

 

I suppose I simply got the overrall impression that Lambert had been pushing for more and more power for the templars and the seekers, and the lack of templar oversight is a relatively recent thing. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 04 mars 2014 - 02:20 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Technically Lambert wouldn't ahve needed permission to re-Tranquilize Pharamond since the order for his Tranquilization had already been given when he was originally Tranquilled. There was, after all, a reason why Pharamond was originally Tranquiled, and that reason still stands, despite his recent cure.

[dragonflight288]

Technically Lambert wouldn't ahve needed permission to re-Tranquilize Pharamond since the order for his Tranquilization had already been given when he was originally Tranquilled. There was, after all, a reason why Pharamond was originally Tranquiled, and that reason still stands, despite his recent cure.

 

Hmm. I suppose this is true, but it's also open for interpretation since this situation never occurred before. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Indeed. It is only a technicality that would allow lambert to bypass authorization from a First Enchanter. It would also depend on wether or not the Templars actually keep these orders in archives, which I believe they would.

[dragonflight288]

Indeed. It is only a technicality that would allow lambert to bypass authorization from a First Enchanter. It would also depend on wether or not the Templars actually keep these orders in archives, which I believe they would.

 

Yeah, but which archives? Would the only copy be at whatever Circle pharamond was at originally? Or do they actually send copies to the White Spire?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, reading the Enigma of Kirkwall, at least suggest that the Templars keep records locally.

[dragonflight288]

Well, reading the Enigma of Kirkwall, at least suggest that the Templars keep records locally.

 

This is true, but unless Pharamond was at White Spire, Lambert would need to get those records somehow. If the mages/templars sent reports to Val Reyeaux about mages made tranquil then it would be relatively easy to find. If not, then it's just Lambert throwing his own authority around based on a technicality. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, he could also just be certain in their existance. I think it is one of those minor details you just have to let go 

[The Elder King]

Ah, ah, ah. Technically, the dwarves hadn't actually had a civil war. Civil unrest and political skirmishes, sure, but not an open war. Wheareas the dwarves had to help the surface with their actual war and helped turn aside the blight.

As far as I recall you guys weren't able to elect a king without me finding your Paragon in the Deep Roads .

[dragonflight288]

As far as I recall you guys weren't able to elect a king without me finding your Paragon in the Deep Roads .

 

I found the paragon. Then I was made one. Who needs surfacers?

 

[dragonflight288]

Well, he could also just be certain in their existance. I think it is one of those minor details you just have to let go 

 

Dang it. I hate letting things go. 

[EmissaryofLies]

Which it hasn't- mages aren't locked down in the towers forever and ever. They can earn the privilege to leave for extended durations, and even permanent dispensation for exceptional merit and conditions.

 

The problem many pro-mages have is that stepping out of the Circles is a privilege, not a right, and that it must be earned, and is not granted freely.

 

They also have a problem with the premise of an life-long security state, but that's because there's a ingrained notion that security threats are temporary, not enduring, in nature. That something stops being a risk if it doesn't happen long enough.

 

 

Edit: I'll elaborate on the life-long threat a tad since I think it's worth pointing out that the risk of magic abuse and demonic possession is greatest in times of stress and emotional volatility, and even without a Circle system stress is a given across one's life time, from start to finish. Childhood and adolescence, the point at which mages come into their powers, is a time of biological and social change mixed with an extreme lack of experience and maturity to handle such impacts on one's own. In the mid-life, issues of love and family, beautiful as they are, are extreme challenges to emotional stability even when things are going well, and a source of great temptations when they are not. And at the end of life, the natural fear of death or it's approach is a strong  basis of appeal for the powers and temptations demons can offer to put off or escape it.

 

The threat of demonic possession isn't something that goes away after your mage tests and education- it's a matter of context, and aboloshing the Circles and offering mages total freedom won't remove those contexts.

 

With few exceptions, they are locked in their towers until the day that they die. Arbitrary and rare passes outside of the circle are just that, rare and temporary. The bottom line is that the mage will die in that circle unless of course they happen to know someone powerful or 'earn' their freedom(whatever that means is left up to higher powers), in which case the 'rare' portion comes into play. It is too little; cannot settle for it.

 

I daresay that the problem that many pro-mages have is this Andrastian belief that mages wear black hats and should be locked up for what they 'might' do, keyword being might. If a mage proves him or herself reliable, credible, and loyal to society and the mastery of their powers they should be given a chance. A chance being their freedom, not simply an extended field trip. That is all. But somehow that is not enough in most cases.

 

The risk of demonic possession and magical abuse is always going to be there, I and many others agree. But as the system stands now, most mages are guilty by virtue of existence. Some are made tranquil off of the arbitrary whim of a templar who deems them 'weak', some end up hating themselves because of the Chantry's representation in their lives and others suffer similar terrible fates. It is not any wonder that when you treat people like monsters, they will eventually become monsters.

 

Reformation is too mild. The whole thing needs to be flipped turned upside down, as evidenced by every single circle rising up at the end of DA II. I believe "pro-mages" have proposed such systems in the past.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Most peasants don't get to leave the village they were born in. Just saying.

[EmissaryofLies]

True and it's just one more thing that needs improving.

 

Though the peasant can leave their location. While the mage cannot, unless beckoned by his/her kindly master.

[shodiswe]

I'm not so sure it's preferable to get jailed up in a tower to being forced to live in a village. But, yeah, I guess the setting might have a lot of indentured and enslaved people, not just mages.

[shodiswe]

@ Emissary, In some places peasants arn't allowed to leave.

 

In medival europe the lords didn't allow their peasants to leave their lands.

The peasant had to ask for permission and the reason had to be damn good, and the lord would have to be very very generous.

 

Peasants were workers and taxpayers, loosing one meant a loss of income and a reduction to the workforce.

 

These days, it's harder to move to a place than to leave it.... Kind of opposite. Back then people were a resource, now they are a (potential resource but often regarded as a liability)

 

It's always been tricky, historicly aswell a contemporary migration policies.

 

The difference with mages is that they are born into a kind of permanent housearrest unless "ordered" to perform a service somewhere.

They arn't told they can't leave their country or town, they are told they can't leave their home, they can't go to the pub or the beach or anywhere.

[EmissaryofLies]

@ Emissary, In some places peasants arn't allowed to leave.

 

In medival europe the lords didn't allow their peasants to leave their lands.

The peasant had to ask for permission and the reason had to be damn good, and the lord would have to be very very generous.

 

Peasants were workers and taxpayers, loosing one meant a loss of income and a reduction to the workforce.

 

These days, it's harder to move to a place than to leave it.... Kind of opposite. Back then people were a resource, now they are a (potential resource but often regarded as a liability)

 

It's always been tricky, historicly aswell a contemporary migration policies.

 

The difference with mages is that they are born into a kind of permanent housearrest unless "ordered" to perform a service somewhere.

They arn't told they can't leave their country or town, they are told they can't leave their home, they can't go to the pub or the beach or anywhere.

 

Interesting.

 

If the same applies to Thedas maybe they should join the mages. Roll out the evil templar propaganda and beat the drums of war. We will break the system!